History Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread VI

Well, that doesn't actually follow. If anything, a standing army will tend to be smaller than a contingency force. You can raise the entire population of the country for a campaigning season quite easily, but you have to let them go home for the harvest; you can only keep a standing army small enough to allow the rest of society to function. In fact, most standing armies make themselves larger by employing non-standing elements in times of crisis, conscripting men to serve for a relatively short time compared with a professional soldier's career.

JEELEN said:

I thought that was obvious; Louis XIVs army was so large (compared to its adversaries) precisely because it was a standing army. (That, ofcourse, also made it highly expensive and was probably the reason the example wasn't followed.)

Click to expand...

I keep thinking you're talking about me

Louis XXIV said:

I keep thinking you're talking about me

Click to expand...

If he stuck to discussing users instead of history, he'd have a better shot at being correct.

haroon said:

like an american you say? you're indeed funny you always have this devil triangle that you always attribute to something that you consider to be "the enemy" or "the conspirator" of Turkish empire: America (imperialistic, conspirator), Kurdish (heathen, antagonistic, anti Turkish), and Arab and Saudi (Al Qaeda, Islamic conspirator, terrorist). So most of your argument can be deduce not far from this trinity, because you always put it in three different manifestation but have a single hive mind soul it is for (yani) to destroy the Turkish empire

Just look at his face and moustache, and go to Istanbul, you get thousands Turkish laik youth pop up exactly resemble to his "kurdish" avatar.

Click to expand...

with apologies to Novakart in case he feels like he has been observed , am pretty sure he had once an avatar with somebody in hijap up the waist and naked "pretty" legs in heels underneath . Never thought he was a modern age stripper .

for the rest ı think putting the posts into little pieces make a real eyesore ; allow me read all and try a composite this time .

I found interesting data on demography of southern states of the USA in early months of year 1860 (census).

The data was compiled from: http://mapserver.lib.virginia.edu/ by user The General here:

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=109916&st=0

So I thought maybe someone will be interested:

Dachs said:

If he stuck to discussing users instead of history, he'd have a better shot at being correct.

Click to expand...

I doubt it.

r16 said:

for the rest ı think putting the posts into little pieces make a real eyesore ; allow me read all and try a composite this time .

Click to expand...

Take your time R16.

haroon said:

...

Click to expand...

and

r16 said:

...

Click to expand...

this thread is getting to be a good example how debate happens in Turkey . Say something against the prevailing mood and get labeled as a Racist , Nationalist , Militarist Kemalist with an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the West . Say a fair amount , if not the majority, of Kurds living in Turkey have no problems with Turks and see the floodgates opening on how we want to assimilate them , disregarding their uniqueness . Then yet another barrage on being a Racist , Nationalist , Militarist Kemalist with an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the West . ı can almost see Hakan Albayrak on some TV debate , tearing the opposition this way . This Albayrak guy is one of the minds behind the Mavi Marmara , where we were to gain credibility in the Middle East with some victory against the Gazze blockade of Israel , even if it was a made-before deal that no actual challenge would be offered to Israel and the ship would dock in Egypt and we would look like doing something against the Zionists while Mübarek's Eygpt was just a lackey of the said Zionists and the Muslim Brotherhood members would be like more willing to get into Ankara's orbit . When the Israelis boarded the ship and intentionally killed only Turkish citizens , Albayrak for one tried to blame the Military for not coming and saving the ship . Considering it would look bad on all the Islamists of Turkey ; traitorous Military solved anything .

this is not to say this is some sock-puppet account to make an impression on the membership of the CFC . Everybody worth his salt reads the CFC , but this is not the place where things get decided ; even Hillary Rodham doesn't show up after her exit from Barack Hussein's outfit . Only Millman has ever challenged me with asserting in case ı was for real ı wouldn't have the wherewithal and the strategic background to fight the US and the range of Coalitions it could have . The rest -if they ever bother- give me some space for ı try to have meaningful contributions to discussions and hopefully be funny at times ; as such thrashing me in CFC wouldn't do anything for this New Turkey which finds itself in some serious mess .

for that very reason applying these glorious traditions of debate in Turkey to swamp my position will not be helpful . A position of mine is that a fair amount -if not the majority- of Kurds living in Turkey have nothing against Turks , be them Seculars or not so Seculars . They merely want a better life and who am ı to deny them that ? The early years of the Republic saw uprisings and 1940s were ugly with WW2 and Red Menace at the doorstep , where "Deterrence" was all available to Ankara so that British Gold and Russian Gold wouldn't be as compelling . Expect yet another charge of Racism-against-Kurds right here , as if the West of the country wasn't awash with similar stuff . The multi-party elections , however contrivived and faulty they might be , stopped the stuff . You don't get the vote of people if you insist they are not worth giving the right to vote ... The current troubles hark back to 1960s when the Radical Left went upto the mountains to create a local Vietnam , 'cause you know it was cool , and the villagers cold shouldered those few local university students with a bunch of city boys in tow .

it was only by the end of 1970s that the growing Right-Left street fighting and TV reports of 20-killed-in-a-day-everyday convinced the Kurdish feodals that the end of Turkey was nigh and they had to be ready for that . That's the sole reason that a Marxist-Leninist "insurgency" could be created in Turkey -with the Feodals volunteering volunteers to fight against their Feodalism . In the exact same sense that saw the formation of Armenian "insurgency" almost a century back . And every single freaking Kurd also knows that the dear seperatist leader was paid by Ankara to do exactly do that . 'Cause you know the Islamic Revolution of Iran would create a void of power in the region and one could -you know- extend "covert" influence into neighbouring countries . His daughter might be the voice of Counter-Revolution but Mahir Kaynak surely wasn't to know 40 , 50 thousand people would die . Such numerical expectations require the magic touch of the likes of people in Langley, Virginia .

the depiction of all that as the result of Kemalism is the thing Islamists do , as if Kurds now sharpened by the agony of some 30 years of fighting , actually would care for an Ankara in Prayer 55 times a day , if given the chance by the US of A and Europe to have a country of their own with oil deposits . You see it on the TV , the Islamist tells how they saved their Kurdish brother from the Godless Turkish Army and the Kurdish brother demands to have beaches in Mersin so that he can swim in the waters of 'stan .

and there is pain ; nobody ever claims there isn't . When ı was serving a 26 day duration stint after paying the Turkish Lira equivalent of 4500 German Marks as the compulsory Military Service in Ankara in the year 2000 , we would have leaves at the weekend . Walking to Kızılay from Mamak / Etimesgut -and it becomes a seriously long way under the August sun- ı saw this guy with an hose , watering the the roadside greenery as a worker of the Municipality . Asked for some water to drink and got it too . Refusal of water would be so not-Eastern -we also being Eastern on the subject . The thing here is that ı was wearing the Green fatigue shirt sleeves under the shirt and he was looking at me with real hate . Have always been so feeble that ı almost invite hostility yet comparatively rare that ı know ı would be stabbed to death if it was less crowded or the night .

with that in mind it is an insult not to Turks -who don't matter one bit in the world whatever- but the very existence of a notion called intelligence of mankind if Islamists of this new Turkey think one moment that they will be able to control the Kurds with tales of Military oppression , Kemalist suppression and Turkish depression -after America gives the Green Light . Kurds are capable of seeing how the Islamists are so ready to denounce everybody with a charge of discrimination and use that to discriminate on their own . Given a choice , they will not opt for what they are supposed to do by all those glorious newlies ...

discriminate ? Just as an example , here in this thread and not because Haroon is one but he uses the same exact arguments , ı learn ı don't see half of the Turkish people as decent and that coming from an angle ı had used somewhere previously that the Kurds were just like Turks , human beings to begin with . Probably because ı certainly do not sound like ı would vote for the Party or the Congregation and the votes in the country are just about split halfway . But the newlies are so Democratic , they even respect the other 50% . Uhmm ... Yeah , right ... Let's see , they have all sorts of democratic reforms , like the one that allows wearing a beard ; which wasn't banned considering ı have personally been seeing bearded people since the 1970s when ı was some kid holding Mama's hand in the street . Goverment Service ? Trying to explain already got me confirmed as a Kemalist , maybe shouldn't sink further . As such , ı know my words are quite all right , if taken within their context , and all diabolical without .

and this is the thing in Turkey , the newlies take anybody who thinks they are somehow at fault and shove the words into the mouth of the said unfortunate . With all sorts of flashy commentary . Say , "the positive ethics of the western world like discipline, freedom of expression, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, their creativity, also their idealistic attitude toward their principle " almost matches the daily reference some guy named Weber got with regards to -ı think- Protestant stuff that made the West great , with people harnessing Religious Zeal with Scientific Prowess and stuff . Great way of doing things as proven by the fact that the West rules the world and yet there are some idiots outta there somewhere who suspect the Islamization of the country is only meant to give leverage to Arabs whom America likes and will even result in attacks in the way Islam is held in this country so that the Faith of people of who really believe will be at risk and they are to be convinced that "It won't hurt." The tops of this argument belongs to Hasan Köni , some professor who was acceptable on the State Channel when the Islamists lacked the degree of control , and he clearly said the New Islamist Businessmen were all taking European maids and no doubt screwing them ; they would turn out no different then all those closet Jews who used to run the economy previously , so what was the issue ?

and the "regular" respect for the Jew thing . Nobody should feel offended in any way , but in Turkey , the newlies have this habit of calling on their "opponents" to return to their "real" status and berating them for this lack of integrity . For an outsider , of course , it's entirely possible to make an actual argument on this and comment that the West merely laughs at those who think the appearance is enough . Though "No discrimination on part of the New" idea falls rather short with assumption that r16 -in this thread- is proven to favour copycatting the West . Had a beard at the height of February 28 events , some 15-16 years back or so , would be kept waiting for another hour at the banks for the beard , too . Could watch the building of the pressure on the country , even if ı wasn't in some weird Turkish Language forum where ı could ask people who had already seen it comin' . The oppression of people who "opposed" copy catting was intentional and as an over-the-board media campaign where nobody could dare staying out ; so that the Counter-Revolution would be easier when its time came .

if you think anything has changed , ı shave more often these days and am kinda famous in the city . Was at some bank in the city center a couple of years back and my number , well ... Finally ı turned to the guard waiting at the door and ı mentioned ı would be waiting an extra at the İş Bankası back at the day , only due to the beard ... This is the point when one must deduce that calling r16 paranoid is a waste of a couple of bytes in CFC servers . Everybody already knows ...

going on along the post there is this discussion of keyboards and ı still think being married to a Turkish woman justifies the purchase of some Chinese made USB keyboard at under the equivalent of 7.5$ with Turkish characters .

further on we come to the part where the "New" accuses the Kemalists . Allow me add that it's yet another thing in answer to a point raised previously . That the religiously inclined Turks not oppressing the Kurds and they behave in return . With me replying that the Religion was not the whole factor , considering the Arabs have been fighting the Syrian Kurds over a couple of oil wells for quite a time and whenever some Arab "volunteer"wounded in the fighting , just a hundred meters from the border , gets brought into a Turkish hospital , the relatives of Kurds who don't get to call the same ambulance , try to get the wounded in the stretcher . But if you are trying to imply Kurds are Kemalists , well , ı think it would be cool to let you .

and then ... Where we all see the New Turkey is so ingrained , so fast . Where the poster gets to blame the CHP , as it's the custom . The Main Opposition is best known by the way it's so uncapable of opposition . Yet , some reference to CHP Brownshirts on the street ? ı don't want to comment on that either , because ı expect to be labeled as a CHP apologist . And do you really wonder why nobody actually believes the story you have mentioned with regards to the "Hicabi woman" and her baby ? Let me see , at the height of it during towards to the end of Gezi events , this woman's case was reported by all the Party Media . Suddenly surrounded by up to 70 men . All naked from the waist up , all carrying a band on the forehead , all wearing leather gloves . She was knocked out flat , because as you say her head was covered ... Came to herself , reeking urine ; her baby was crying on the ground a few meters away with the baby carriage not in sight , or something . And let's see it once again , this is supposed to have taken place in the middle of Istanbul , in broad daylight with men beating a woman with a baby and dropping their pants down to p_ss on her . And not one single Muslim around to call the police or ID them from pictures or invoke the name of Allah to make the b_stards stop ; or least trying to do so . Allow me to say what would happen , had this been real . At least 500 people would have been taken in , police would have identified at least a couple and the Colonial Governor in Ankara -the guy you would better identify as the American Ambrassador to Turkey- would be lodging official complaints from Washington with gross violation of human rights ... As those naked men were apt to wake up with a police baton up some inconvenient body part . And the New Turkey would be like talking that this was a CHP conspiracy or Zionist plot , with traitorous officials abusing the incarcerated to topple the Goverment . Makes me think you adapt fast , yet am positive you haven't spent enough time in Turkey ...

still going straight , this time the wedding stuff . It's entirely possible to have an official wedding with the couple and one witness for each ; making a grand total of four people going through the abomination ; in their daily gear . Clearing the way for the Islamic vows before or after in whatever style one prefers .

"to learn Persian and how to read Arabic to able to access Ottoman manuscript (edit: I also need to learn Ottoman language after that.)"

well , well ... But the thing is , to access Ottoman manuscript you do have to learn Persian and Arabic and Ottoman variety of Turkish ; you would still have to do the same had the Alphabet never been changed . The "Hat" and "Writing" Revolutions are still standing , the cruelty of wearing foreign hats and the break in culture are the canards we hear whenever possible . The work of the Counter-Revolution is not yet complete afterall .

but then let's assume the issue is real with millions of notes on any imaginable subject . Once again , there is nothing that ever stops academia from translating them . Am a wannabe historian , can only respect the work of people who actually do work . Have been an avid reader of sorts too as well . It was in high school that ı learned some guy -with a big name in the 17 or 18th century- once classified People-Nations-Races according to p_nis size . Always leads to a personal amazement on how we Turks manage to reproduce , considering any woman would need a magnifying glass and a pair of tweezers to handle us Turks . Or an even bigger name from early 1000s ... Possibly as a parable to explain expertise in a given field is a must and people without the said experience can suffer a lot if they try to act without proper guidance ... Female servant of the house gets into some action with the donkey of the house . Female owner of the house lacks the experience ; doesn't know what the pumpkin is for ... Gross ? Supposedly happened for real , some centuries later , involving some European nobility and a horse .

knowing what will come next , let's assume this was a conspiracy by the Kemalists to turn the youth away from Islam . But in 2014 the Islamists are in charge of anything , who is keeping them from personally translating all the stuff that will turn the Youth away from going away from Islam ?

"Kemalists don't stand in line, Muslims do." or "Turks do not stand in line." are the options that come up later on , can't tell which it is . Shortly followed by on how democracy is good and people must be allowed to be . Don't remember arguing otherwise ; unfortunately the gist of that would be more like the feeling Turkey-wide that the New is relentlessly pushing more and more . No doubt , you don't want to impose somebody to grow a beard or your wife impose others how to dress morally ...

and the sure clincher comes at the very end ; adding Greek into a sentence must be enough to any Turk to explode into an explosion of Racism , wild in the eye , froth in the mouth , oaths in the air . Whenever ı mention it will be only Phantom sorties against Greece , people in Athens merely see F-16s would be busy somewhere else . With some previous reference to my light-saber and stuff . You know , when ı park a Starship in orbit , ı win any thread in CFC .

I kept looking for the Greek term in your post, and i was disappointed that it only mentioned hell-hole Athens and some ancient aircraft

That said, it is not that unlikely that this region will see border changes in the future. Maybe more pronounced than anyone would think of. And i am sure it will be more hellish as well. Btw the revolts in Turkey are not being broadcasted much by now, i suppose also due to the more evident collapse in Ukraine. But still yahoo has a couple of articles each day about police fighting thousands on the streets, so how is it going?

actually there is nothing going that will precipate the fall of Goverment , since the American game in this is to make it look like feasible that there is a plot to topple the Goverment and the over-reaction by the Goverment makes the Civil War unavoidable . The latest clashes must be those which erupted after the Congregation leaked it that the son of the PM would have been caught with a Billion US $ in cash , before the Party stalled the Congregation Police , and ı doubt the demonstrations even registered .

Are there any good books / sources concerning the population of the Holy Roman Empire by region in period ca. 1550 - 1618 (before the 30 Years' War) ???

You're not going to get any enumeration of population at all before about 1815 that isn't primarily guesswork.

@R16

I already know, quite perfectly, that debating over CFC will not change a thing, not only regarding the New Turkey (not Turkish) government, and in general regarding most of the subject and problem that we face in everyday life. I am just here for entertainment, sharing gaming music, seeing mostly Eurocentric version of history and perception of events that happen in the world and try also to read their perspective. Discussing about things that is not related to what I believe and strive for. Because for everything there is a place and time, and I try not to mix it, just to enjoy things as the way they suppose to be enjoyed.

I thought once, the members of this forum (I will not mention the name, not to cause any discomfort or not to do ghibah or gossiping) asking about what happens in Turkey lately and I see the answer is far from the truth in my opinion. However I don't enter the discussion because, it will take a long time to discuss. Some peoples might be quite fair, but some other just want to hear or believe what they want to believe regarding things.

About my "attack" on Ataturkcu racism, is not really an "attack" or "action" it is just a "respond" or "reaction". How do you want me to respond when you told me, "we love Kurdish not as a decent human being like decent Sunni Turks. But as a weapon to use" or when you say "you might first try to identify some of them who are ours (kemalist Turks) and whether they are any different from us (kemalist Turks)", then tell me how should I respond to such a statement? Objectifying another race as a "tool" for Turkish Empire to attain something; classifying them in regard to their similarity "Kemalist Turks", in other words try to measure if they are already assimilated or not to what suppose to be "modern Turks". And yes, you are not the only one who say that, I hear many kind of racist statement regarding Kurds from the modern Turkish. I remember when I ask "where is the best place to rent a house?" and the modernist told me, don't rent to that region because there are huge amount of Kurds over there, if you want to know between the good and save area and the opposite simply see how populated Kurds in that region. I must say, I really annoy with that statement. Also I remember once peoples told me, that I should go to Karadeniz (black sea) because there are no Kurds around there, there are only Turks. Again it made me angry. However the nationalist Kurds also sometime show no different, I remember entering a store with my fiance (now she is my wife), the shop keeper was a Kurdish, and he told me infront of her "every Kurdish is a good Muslim, every Turkish is a bad Muslim" he didn't realize that my wife at that time was actually a Turk, he thought she is just a foreigner like me. This is the reason I see nationalism is nothing but tribalism progressive.

And I'm not here to trash you. As I said before, I like Turkish peoples, and I am friend with both the Muslims and the secularist, because I'm a foreigner the secularist Turks able to tolerate my "Islamist" appearance (even though sometime they can't hold themselves to advice me to change my appearance) and they are so nice to me also. However I think I should speak the truth as truth, regarding how peoples treat me and nice to me.

And I don't buy all the conspiracy theorist narration that Erdogan is a manifestation of Islamist conspirator, he want to build an Ottoman empire all over again, and such cheap argument. I remember how the CHP argue also the Anadolu Genclik, that Erdogan is nothing but a puppet of US of A infront of my face. And later on, when Erdogan show that he can deny and respond back to Washington they say that Erdogan is "supporter of Al Qaeda and Islamist". Until today the Anadolu Genclik (which I quite know many of their member) playing the cards that Erdogan is nothing but american puppet and not really supporting the Muslims using the argument how Erdogan let US military pass through Turkey, how they secretly use Turkey to park their bomber, how Erdogan still have an embassy with Israel. While I believe you also backthen or until now playing that card also. In the same time the CHP try to picture how Erdogan actually supporting the PKK and all of that nonsense.

So if we talk about democracy, you play the card of Erdogan being the puppet of Islamist. If we talk about Erdogan giving equality to the practising Muslims in Turkey peoples play the cards where Erdogan is actually an anti Muslims that he is nothing but a US puppet to control the middle east. When one talk about Erdogan making Kurdish and Turkish peoples together and able to decrease the PKK activity and attack in Turkey, peoples play the card of Erdogan is cooperating with PKK. So Erdogan can be an anti Muslims, anti democratic, anti US, pro PKK, at the same time. I think it is very silly, I don't believe and buy such things.

I don't know what you define about Islamist, some peoples here in Turkey really have a little idea about the Muslims organization movement and mahzab (groups). Using common Turkish definition of Salafist, Wahabist, Islamist, than large majority the Muslim in whole world are Islamist. As they see any appreciator of Ibn Taimiyyah is Islamist, while Indonesia, Pakistan, India, and many other big Muslim country mostly take and consider Ibn Taimiyyah as the sheikhul Islam, even among the tassawuf group in Indonesia use the works of Ibn Qayyim (direct students of Ibn Taimiyyah). If you use that definition, of course all of us are bloody Islamist that don't deserve any contribution or place in democracy, because if we do the government already stain with the Islamist conspirator and movement and deserve a coup (darbe) or they will bring Caliphate back. No surprise many Muslims get more radicalise with this kind of attitude and discrimination.

I see Erdogan nothing but doing his job. Now Turkey doesn't have any debt with IMF, Turkey economy arguably lots better than ever before, Turkey have more freedom for the practising Muslims also for the ethnic minority especially when the Armenian, Kurdish, Arabs in Turkey doesn't have to say "ne mutlu Turkum diyene" or "how happy I am to be Turkish" every day before the class. How you feel if you have to say "how happy I am to be a Kurdish" in your life everyday before the class? you never understand that. So I have so many reason to support this government not because it will bring the shariah come back to life, it is just simply to give me a better life, better freedom, better economy, etc.

I'm sorry if my reply not as good as before, because job already started and I'm quite tired today.

@Kyriakos

There are no thousands of protester marching, I live in Istanbul, I don't see such things. Backthen at the time of gezi park, everyday I go to taksim for language course. So I'm not just simply know what happen, but I also experience, always, the gas tears and all of that stuff. Erdogan get strong support from the public, he will hardly fall. The state inside the state already use many method to bring him down, from coup (which fail because Erdogan weaken the military, they are not anymore the "first class" citizen as they were before), bring him down by organizing masses, yes thousands of them, but the media doesn't show the millions of peoples greet Erdogan when he arrived at the airport, that show so much "what really the Turkish peoples want". And now they use judge with the operation called 17 aralik or 17 december, which is too long to explain and I'm too tired. But the things is, the mainstream media is really openly against Erdogan and doesn't give quite a fair and balanced explanation regarding what happens in Turkey.

But here is someone that I know personally, he is from US I think from duke university, and not a Muslim but live in Turkey, write quite a balance article regarding to what happen in Turkey. Feel free to read it:

http://www.politicaltheology.com/bl...-a-two-week-review-of-the-gezi-park-protests/

Flying Pig,

Of course I was asking for estimated data, not some exact headcount.

Were any of the Soviet aircraft of WWII ever preserved in the West so that they could be seen and studied?

Cutlass said:

Were any of the Soviet aircraft of WWII ever preserved in the West so that they could be seen and studied?

Click to expand...

What do you mean by that? Do you mean something like "did the Western Allies ever get their hands on domestic Soviet aircraft during the Second World War and keep them after the war, using them during the early Cold War as insights into possible future lines of Soviet aircraft development"?

Then I'd have to say I dunno. But there is a copy of a MiG-3 in the hands of an American owner right now.

and the question would be moot considering the loot of the German Industry was to provide the immediate leap of the era ; denying as much as possible of the same loot to the Russians would immediately provide the necessary superiority .

Dachs said:

What do you mean by that? Do you mean something like "did the Western Allies ever get their hands on domestic Soviet aircraft during the Second World War and keep them after the war, using them during the early Cold War as insights into possible future lines of Soviet aircraft development"?

Then I'd have to say I dunno. But there is a copy of a MiG-3 in the hands of an American owner right now.

Click to expand...

I was just wondering if any significant numbers ended up in the West, or did the Soviets manage to not let anyone else get their hands on them. Are there any in museums around the world now?

even quite a bit of the non-Russian WW2 planes come from Russia . With force landings here and there a lot of P-40s hark back to the Eastern Front , since after the demobilization people would prefer to buy Mustangs and all the P-40s would go to smelter .

This could be useful even if ı didn't fully check it . Though warbird fliers seem to prefer La-9 (post WW2) to any other Russian and many Western planes .