EU as a Superpower?

I'm pretty sure it's useless, but I'll give a last try.

Bronx Warlord said:

Funny, the reason were even having this discussion is cause I don't buy the non violent propaganda comming out of europe at the moment. I think it's rather amuseing that europeans think they will never have or be involved in another war, almost childish. You guys managed to stop killing one another and others for sixty years, congradulations. Do it for another sixty and prove me wrong. I just think it won't happen.

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Well, first, I at least don't say "we're never going to have a war". What I say is that I don't see any war in the foreseeable future between European nations.
You answer "yes there can be, because Europe is psychotic, look at all the wars they had before !". Nah, that's not prejudice at all

Tossing Iraq into the arguement shows how baseless your logic is, but nice try, I could almost consider that a halfway decent baiting attempt.

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No, it just shows your blatant hypocrisy. On one hand, you call Europeans coward bastards without backbone that hates the Americans out of jealousy (because they don't do what the US want), and the second after, you call them psychotic killers (because they had plenty of wars in the past).
And on top of that, you dare to say that I used the "let's say that because this guy think different than me, it's because he hates me !". When it comes after the aforementioned sentence about Iraq, it adds another layer to the hypocrisy already shown.

According to you prehaps, notice how concerned I am.

Considering what happened after your last span of peace, no it does not impress me. And still does not even coe close to putting a dent in my first and still standing point. Yet you stick to that prejudice line like I' going to ahve some guilt trip over it and defend myself for something I'm even not? please... I said make it suspensful, but at least have some basis in fact.

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Gosh, what age are you, really ?
"ahahah, I don't care, ahahah". I mean, from a twelve-years old, it would look puerilist, but understandable, but from a supposedly full grown man ?

Basis in facts ? The facts are here : it's been sixty years that no major or even minor conflict has started in Europe. The populations are against any war, and shows a preference to solve problems with diplomacy, to the point that there is a years-long mockery from Americans about how Europeans are worms without courage. Not to say that Europe will be forever peaceful, but there is not for now any frictions that are noticeable enough to lead to any conflict in the next few decades at least. And unlike the previous span of peace you talk about, there is no more deadly grudge between several of the countries.

These are the facts. They are in complete contradiction with your "deductions". Hence, to reach such an absurd conclusion, what is left but prejudice ?

When it's not a complete and utter line of bull**** you'll often find me agreeing... yet on these fourms I've yet to see much that wasen't.

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Well, that's what everybody says. Even Creationists say that, after all. Doesn't mean that the one uttering this line is any less biased or prejudicated for this.

Because of course, for someone with prejudices, things that goes against their prejudices ARE "complete and utter line of bull****".

Ironicly, you want the right to say whatever you feel about my nation yet the minute I bring up a bit of european history, your up in arms... we call that thin skin here.

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Pot calling kettle black.

Well, in fact, it's not really thin skin. I don't care when people points at the European flaws. Europe have the biggest responsability for the mess the world is today, with its past colonial expedition and its past arrogant imperialism.
The thing is, the facts are here : they ended up taking such a big dose of their own medecine, that they finally became sick of it, and for now want peace.

What makes me react is not that someone points that Europeans were warmongers in their past, but rather when this someone, who is so obviously and proudly nationalistic, comes on his high horse and start to give lessons about European nationalistic past. It's so ridiculous I have to point at it.

You can try again, if your up for it... I'm hoping you'll be able to change my opinion but trying to label me as something I'm not, or trying to use personal feelings to dispute facts are not going to cut it.

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Changing your opinion would first require you lose your bias. As you refuse to recognize its very existence, I don't think it will happens soon.

I know your used to putting the younger members here in there place but I'm a bit older and wiser, also a bit more cynical to the ways of the world.

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And so much humbler, too

And much more

Please... impress me, show me something that is not based on what you feel but what you know.

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I already pointed several FACTS that I know. That you're refusing to see them, is precisely what bring your prejudice into play.

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I already did a thread about that.
In my opinion it's very difficlut because today you see most of youngmens and teenagers that are extremeliberal or extremeleft. The last ones are euroceptical. If our society, in EU contries continues to mantaine in the governement center-left,centrists,center-right,moderate socialists, social-democrats and christian democrats, probably no country will break out with EU.
But imagine, this is an example, Portugal. We have in the power a social-democrat party.This party and the monderate socialists are the two biggest parties here. The others parties in the parlement never won elections, they are: Christian-Democrats; Marxist Communists and Liberal Communists.There are also a nationalist-fascist party and a "Worker's Party"(witch José Durão Barroso, the Presindent of the Comission was partoff, now he is social-democrat)these parties aren't in the parlemaint.
If EU formed a country now what could happen?
1-A Nationalist wave would cross the country and would break up with EU and install a Nationalist Dictatorship(less probable 1-1000)
2-A Marxist Communist wave would cross country and the Marxist Communists would be in the power and install a Marxist Communist Dictatorship(a little more probable
3-1000)
3-A Liberal Communist wave would cross country and the Liberal Communists would be in the power and install a Anarchy or a Liberal Communist Regime that would be less Liberal(even more probable 5-1000)
4-The people such as the government would accept and everthing will be alright (More and more and more .... probable 700-1000)
Note:I only used my country as an example and I'm not euroceptical

Marla_Singer said:

@Akka, StoreAlex, Masquerouge, Doc Tsiolkovski, Hitro and Steph :

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Hey, I never even replied to him.

And as I tend to think the EU will fail I don't think I'd be the right one to do so in the first place.

Hitro said:

Hey, I never even replied to him.

And as I tend to think the EU will fail I don't think I'd be the right one to do so in the first place.

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What are you waiting for killing yourself ? Sorry to link your statement with the one of Kronic I've answered to on yesterday but obviously the whole Germany is on depression. You're not happy and it can only be worse tomorrow.

Then I ask you. What are you waiting for killing yourself ?

Marla_Singer said:

What are you waiting for killing yourself ? Sorry to link your statement with the one of Kronic I've answered to on yesterday but obviously the whole Germany is on depression. You're not happy and it can only be worse tomorrow.

Then I ask you. What are you waiting for killing yourself ?

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For the glorious leader who will wipe away the disgrace of Maastricht.

Too bad Arnold is overseas.

Okay, as a more serious answer:

Why should I have a more optimistic outlook on the future of the EU? I don't think the peoples (the plural is the key point here) of Europe as a whole are really willing to accept a European identity. On the contrary all they want from the EU is benefits for themselves while being unwilling to give something of their own to others as well. For example when it comes to people in the recently joined countries (btw, why weren't we asked?) all polls show that those who supported their entry into the EU by far mostly did so because they hope it will bring more prosperity and influence to their country. No word about prosperity or in fact anything else for the other EU members. It's simply a matter of cashing in.

On the other hand this kind of attitude is quite prevalent in the "older" member countries as well. The Brits are downright paranoid about the EU and refuse to give up anything for it and countries like France or the Southern European members also tend to block everything that's not completely in their interest.

With that kind of attitudes it is doomed to fail. Sure there are individual people, and certainly quite a few of them, who really believe in the European idea(l). But those are in the minority, even in countries like France or Germany, and far more so in others.

So why should I be optimistic about it?

Marla_Singer said:

What are you waiting for killing yourself ? Sorry to link your statement with the one of Kronic I've answered to on yesterday but obviously the whole Germany is on depression. You're not happy and it can only be worse tomorrow.

Then I ask you. What are you waiting for killing yourself ?

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You could argue that this is exactly what Germany's doing (fertility rate).

However, being pessimistic doesn't make you kill yourself. It's more like being indifferent to the future.

PS: Hitro is even more pessimistic than I am.

kronic said:

PS: Hitro is even more pessimistic than I am.

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Anything else would have surprised my alot.

Hitro said:

So why should I be optimistic about it?

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Before being cynical, check out what Europe has achieved during the last month.



The ESA Huygens probe successfully lands on Titan, one of Saturn's satellite.



Millau's bridge, the tallest bridge in the world.
Some of Millau's bridge pillars are taller than the Eiffel Tower.



The Airbus A380, the largest commercial plane ever built, has been inaugurated last week.



Only the EU can make you dream again.

Why should I have a more optimistic outlook on the future of the EU? I don't think the peoples (the plural is the key point here) of Europe as a whole are really willing to accept a European identity. On the contrary all they want from the EU is benefits for themselves while being unwilling to give something of their own to others as well. For example when it comes to people in the recently joined countries (btw, why weren't we asked?) all polls show that those who supported their entry into the EU by far mostly did so because they hope it will bring more prosperity and influence to their country. No word about prosperity or in fact anything else for the other EU members. It's simply a matter of cashing in.

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I agree with you, but would remind you that all federations (which many Europhiles are pushing for) are formed because its member states want protection, or market access. The USA and Canada were formed because of its founding members enter for those reasons. The politicians did not want to give up power, and many of the common citizens did want to have to pay taxes and be subject to law to some faraway capital decides.

So the question becomes now: Can Europe federate into a stong and stable federal state, capable of projecting power arcoss the world?

I expect not. There are just too many centers of power in Europe today, and they too far apart in languange and culture to form greater factions. Europe would never do what it takes to federate into a single unit. Federations can be very unstable, esp. ones with multple languanges and cultures.

Remember, Canada and USA came with a hair's lenght of falling, and for the same reason: regionalism. The South wanted to pull out because it felt like it was being screwed over by the North and Quebec felt/feels the same way about Ontario. And that how some of the British are beginning to feel like with regards to Europe.

If someone could tell me how the EU makes life in Germany better, fights unemployment and creates new opportunities or change anything to the better, please do so.

The whole criteria for the Union are tried to be weakened permanently by Germany, France, the Greeks and guys from Cyprus were absolutely cheating, and prices for food and everyday articles have risen.

Free trade all over Europe is a nice thing indeed, but we do not need an EU government who is so far away from the population that its decision are flawed, nobody is really informed or does really care!

Sometimes the EU harmonizes or passes a stupid law, and stupid Germany has to follow, like the thing with the cars for young adults younger than 18.

I wish the EU could restrict itself to even more to economic cooperation, but not laws or foreign policy! The guys in the european parliament are unknown to the population, and everyone knows where Germany loves to send "specialists" that find no place in the German government.

I also fail to create some basic european patriotism if the German chancellor is speaking pathetic praise for the Airbus A380.

The thing is, I get nothing from the EU, and with so many different views, languages, the fact that people are still primarily German, Greek, French, Spanish and not European, I doubt it will ever succeed in being more than today, and I honestly do not want a social welfare organization for struggling foreign european nations.

Marla Singer said:

Before being cynical, check out what Europe has achieved during the last month.

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It's a good start (No sarcasm). I'm happy that Europe is making a comeback of sorts. But we've been cranking that kind of stuff out for at least the past 60 years .

elfangor801 said:

It's a good start (No sarcasm). I'm happy that Europe is making a comeback of sorts. But we've been cranking that kind of stuff out for at least the past 60 years .

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Must be why Boeing can't compete on the "big long-range plane" area.

Congrats for sending a space probe on Titan 60 years ago, before the invention of the reaction engine, though

elfangor means that we have produced things like that before in the past 60 years. for example Boeing has been building jumbo jets for 30 years. the A380 is just another step in the market. we have already sent plenty of probes in outer space. maybe like Voyagers, Galleio, and Mars Rovers.

.....anyone know how the probe got to Titan? It was launched into space by the US, and piggy-backed a US vehicle while in space.

In case no one remembers, we also went to the moon several times, put up some space stations (Not there now), established the GPS system, the list goes on. We also have two very expensive remote control cars running around Mars right now.

Bronx Warlord said:

storealex you can copy and paste! outstanding!

Notice I never said my country diden't have it's moments... but still, Europe has five hundred years of such moments

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Well for the record, America was able to avoid wars, by exterminating all North American opposition (with two notable exceptions) through the barbarous wars against the native Americans in the 19th century.

Just because your genocide was more complete, doesn't mean it was more moral.

note: I am aware that my own country has had its moments with its native population, but then I am not arguing otherwise.

Who cares about planes and pointless space missions? Seriously, these aren't highly valuable things for me. I more or less don't care...

kronic said:

Who cares about planes and pointless space missions? Seriously, these aren't highly valuable things for me. I more or less don't care...

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That was an example. It sort of applies, umm, everywhere. Unless you were rooting for the Soviets, the US protected Europe for about 40 years, as well. Like I said, it's great that Europe is coming back into the swing of things, but don't get ahead of yourselves.

kronic said:

Who cares about planes and pointless space missions? Seriously, these aren't highly valuable things for me. I more or less don't care...

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By learning about the processes that occur on Mars, Venus, Io, Titan, etc., we can halp figure how similar processes occur on Earth. Research into the climate of Venus helped science raise concerns about cilmate change on Earth.

Besides, research in one field of science can be applied into other areas of reseach. For example, in the late 80's, some physists were researching how sandpiles form. Sounds useless, right? It actually has proven quite applied to some "real world" problems, like earthquakes and forest fires.

But that's

Bronx Warlord said:

I've based it on several simple and true facts.

1 - Sooner or later war happens to everyone. Never fails, there has never been a moment in this planets history that two tribes ( that is what we all are after all, overgrown and refined tribes ) have not at some point, somewere on terra firma, been in conflict with one another. As soon as one caveman learned to cock back his fist and hit another, there has been conflict.

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And why would it continue forever ? Because you decided it ? This stanza didn't prove anything.

2 - An extended peroid of peace proves nothing, except that prehaps the next conflict will be even more destructive than the last. There have been many cases in history were in one year there were no tensions and in the next there was full out war. To think that your immune to the sickness that is humanity is almost laughable and pompus, not to mention dangerous. Sooner or later violence will happen, our collective history as humans proves this... and even when we were monkeys, I'm sure we did just the same except prehaps with a bit more honesty.

3 - One can not overlook a pattern of behavior, often times... moreso than not it repeats itself. I would list some ways this is true but there are so many I don't even know were to start. The world of today will look diffrent in five years, and the world ten years from now will look diffrent from then as well. To think that you know for a definate fact what will happen is not only unrealistic, it's downright stupid.

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Blah blah blah...

If we examine history objectively, Europe has been the least consistent, least predictable region of the world, full of nasty suprises for everyone else. Europs is history's manic depressive. Contrary to the popular wisdom, Europe is far less steady and dependable than the United States. While Europeans view themselves as the masters of the arts of ( no pun intended ) civilization, there historical behavior has more closely resembled that of today's soccer hooligans.

Don't like my opinion? fine, you don't have too and to be honest I could really care less if you do. Yet none of you, nor I can say for cirtian what will happen. I accecpt that sooner or later there will be a conflict that Europe is involved in, more than likely an extremely violent one. Do I want this to happen? no, I'm not some madman that wants to see people die regardless of there homeland. Do I sit there like some child with my eyes closed and my fingers in my ears acting like if I just ignore it that it won't happen? no, I do not. If anything I am cynical and realistic, and don't expect much to change regardless of all the spin one wants to put on it.

I think the reason for such strong reactions to my opinion is simple, fear. It's an understandable and even worthy fear as well... fear of the unknown. If you asked me in 1999 if there would be a war on terror I would have laughed, more than likely so would have many of you as well. In the past five years the world has done a 180, like it always has. It's ok not to like war, I don't like it ( as hard as that may be to belive ) yet I respect it, and know it will always happen sooner or later. After all... if humans are involved in something sooner or later one group will take active and violent action against another. Five thousand years and an untold ammount of souls later, the war machine keeps turning. It does not matter if it is the US, SU, EU or even Botswana... we all sooner or later turn our plowshares into swords.

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This post is a real sheet to read, it's completely unbelievable to have this opinion, man !!! Even Jean-Marie Le Pen sounds wiser than that, I'm freaking. Calling Europe unpredictable because it had a lot of wars ? Calling Europe maniaco-depressive ? Maybe you didn't know Europe has many, many countries whereas the USA stands as one and always has (except for a few years in the mid XIXth) ? So you say something, and draw a conclusion that isn't got through logical thinking, and you call it your opinion ? Well I hope it stays yours and only yours then. I think that, if you were in command of a state, you would be one who wouldn't want to change what we have always done, and carry on with the bullsheet that is currently prevailing.

For what I know, Europe has today reached a level that was never even thought of in the entire History, and I think you're jealous.


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