Term 1 ~ Judiciary : Interpereting the Great Experiment!

Black_Hole · Mar 8, 2005

works for me:

Code:

A.  Citizen Rights
    1.  Naming Rights
      a.  City Names
          All cities founded by Fanatannia will be named by citizens
          using a rank-based system.  The President will maintain 
          this list in a thread.  Should a citizen fail to provide a 
          city name, they will be skipped until they provide a city 
          name.  The Director of Expansion will include the city name 
          to be used in the instructions to found that city.  No 
          citizen may name more than one city until all citizens 
          have named a city.       
          1.  Ranking Order - elected officials
              The rank order is based on the term and the Chain of 
              Command.  All officials of an earlier term have priority
              over officials of a later term.  Within a term, the 
              Chain of Command will determine who has priority.  
          2.  Ranking Order - citizens
              Once all elected officials have named cities, the 
              Citizen Regsitry will be used to name cities, using the 
              order citizens were registered.
           
      b.  Province Names
          The first Governor of a province will name the province.

ravensfire · Mar 8, 2005

Strider,

That's odd. The ruleset thread uses CODE tags, and it's working right. Curious, did you use tabs, or spaces. Tabs might cause problems.

Quick test:
<code> (replacing [ with < to show code used)
Line 1
Line 2 (indented with 4 spaces)
</code>

Code:

Line 1
    Line 2 (indented with 4 spaces)

-- Ravensfire

Strider · Mar 8, 2005

ravensfire said:
Strider,

That's odd. The ruleset thread uses CODE tags, and it's working right. Curious, did you use tabs, or spaces. Tabs might cause problems.

Quick test:
<code> (replacing [ with < to show code used)
Line 1
Line 2 (indented with 4 spaces)
</code>

Code:

Line 1 Line 2 (indented with 4 spaces)

-- Ravensfire

I edited my above post:

Edit: It's actually a browser related problem, but my point still stands. It doesn't work.

Edit: Just review it, once your done I'll see what I can do and post it as a proposed poll.

Chieftess · Mar 8, 2005

Looking at the spaceship screen reveals the civs that are in the game, which is finding something that isn't known.

Black_Hole · Mar 8, 2005

Chieftess said:
Looking at the spaceship screen reveals the civs that are in the game, which is finding something that isn't known.

You can find many 5 of the civs by looking at the Top cities screen. Basically its not a game action, thus not irreversible. The action must be irreversible to be an action!

DaveShack · Mar 8, 2005

Strider said:
It just requires "each of the following" and doesn't need to happen in any certain order.

OK, I'm fine with that, although if it changes in the discussion thread during the comment period then another JR would be necessary.

BTW it turns out in this case I'm fine with the text, and will say so in the thread too. You did good on this one! :goodjob:

DaveShack · Mar 8, 2005

Let's just take the simple road on this one. Any reason why someone can't help Strider a bit by just posting the proposed new article in the right formatting?

Code:

X. Elections
  1. Nominations and Debate
    Nominations will be created by the Election Office 8 days prior to
    the end of the month. Citizens may nominate themself or another
    citizen in this thread. Citizens may also post pre-nominations in
    the Election Office thread if they will not be present during the
    nomination period. This nomination thread should contain a
    description of the office. A nomination is not considered
    Accepted until the candidate makes an explicit post. All
    self-nominations are considered Accepted unless otherwise stated.
    All debates will take place within the nomination thread, and
    will continue through the end of the election cycle. Any citizen
    may post questions for the candidates to answer. Candidates may
    answer or not answer as they wish.

  2. Election Polls
    Election polls will be created by the Election Office 4 days
    before the end of the month. These polls will contain the names
    of all Accepted candidates for the office, a description of the
    office, a link to the nomination thread, be set to run for 3 days
    and be marked private. Should a citizen Accept multiple
    nominations, and does not explicitly clarify which office they
    wish to run for, the Election Office will use the first office
    they Accepted. The citizen with the most votes at the close of
    the poll is the winner of the election. Should two or more
    candidates tie at the end of the election poll with the same
    number of votes, a runoff election of two days duration will be
    conducted with the tied candidates only. This process shall
    continue until one candidate receives the most votes.

  3. General
    The Election Cycle will run from the first nomination thread is
    opened until the last runoff poll closes. All threads and polls
    should be posted at before 00:00 GMT on the correct day.

Black_Hole · Mar 8, 2005

I am putting my decision on hold for a bit... btw thanks DS!
However Strider please do not post the poll yet, ravensfire sent the approved articles dealing with amending the CoL and Constitution to the mods to be put in the constitution topic. We will need to review that first...

Strider · Mar 8, 2005

Black_Hole said:
I am putting my decision on hold for a bit... btw thanks DS!
However Strider please do not post the poll yet, ravensfire sent the approved articles dealing with amending the CoL and Constitution to the mods to be put in the constitution topic. We will need to review that first...

It hasn't been reviewed yet either

.

Fine by me, we have a long time untill any of this will make a huge differance. Just as long as it's in place for the next election cycle.

Black_Hole · Mar 8, 2005

Strider said:
It hasn't been reviewed yet either .

Fine by me, we have a long time untill any of this will make a huge differance. Just as long as it's in place for the next election cycle.

I just love running a game without a full constitution, almost better than folgers in the morning

Provolution · Mar 10, 2005

Honorable Judiciary

I want to file a Citizen Complaint, against, surprise, citizen Provolution, for filing an unnecessary Judicial Review and disturbing the common peace.

mad-bax · Mar 10, 2005

In an effort to learn how this all works I have begun to look at the constitution. At the moment I will only concern myself with the Code of Laws, but will later look at the constitution itself. I have a few comments, questions suggestions and emotional outbursts that I will post here. I'm sorry if it is not the correct place.

Code of Laws

Missing section Here.

The Code of Laws affords each citizen of Fanatannia certain rights and obligations. The term "Citizen" is defined in Article A of the Constiturion.

A. Citizen Rights
1. Naming Rights
a. City Names
All cities [founded] by Fanatannia will be named by citizens
using a rank-based system. The President will maintain
this list in a thread. Should a citizen fail to provide a
city name, they will be skipped until they provide a city
name. The Director of Expansion will include the city name
to be used in the instructions to found that city. No
citizen may name more than one city until all citizens
have named a city. Add - Cities acquired though military or cultural means during the course of a turnset will be renamed through instructions passed by the Director of Expansion on the Pre-turn of the following turnset

The word founded means that we may not rename captured or flipped cities. I would replace "founded by" with "contained within the cultural boundaries of
1. Ranking Order - elected officials
The rank order is based on the term and the Chain of
Command. All officials of an earlier term have priority
over officials of a later term. Within a term, the
Chain of Command will determine who has priority.
2. Ranking Order - citizens
Once all elected officials have named cities, the
Citizen Regsitry will be used to name cities, using the
order citizens were registered.

Some officials are appointed. Where are they in the ranking order?

b. Province Names
The first Governor of a province will name the province.

but how is the size and shape of a province decided? How are the boundaries set? I can't find it in the constitution.

c. Unit Names
The Commander of Armed Forces will utilize the unit naming
preferences within the Citizen Registry thread to rename all
military units.

c. Cannot be implemented. The Designated Player must rename the units according to instructions passed By the commander of the Armed Forces. Then in the definition of the Commander of the Armed forces you will specify the maintenance of a list of unit names as a responsibility of that office.

d. Natural Feature Names
All natural features within a province may be named by the
Governor of the province. Add- No Governor may re-name a natural feature already named by a predecessor

2. Confirmation Polls
a. Confirmation polls are used in certain, specified
situations What certain specified conditions? They do not seem specified anywhere to me! to challenge the decision of an elected official.
Confirmation polls may be used only when explicitly allowed
by law. Any citizen may create a confirmation poll, should
one not already exist. This poll must be created within 24
hours of the appointment or decision, and ask the question
"Do you approve of the <description of decision>?", with
Yes, No and Abstain option. If the confirmation poll
directly concerns a citizen (e.g. appointment), this poll
is to be private, as it is a form of an election. The poll
will run for 2 days. At the end of the time, if a majority
of the citizens Add - who participate in the poll vote "No", the decision is overturned. Any
other result approves the decision.

H. Elections, Deputies and Vacancies
1. Nominations and Debate
a. Nominations Add - for all elected positions will be created - Replace with "accepted" by the Election Office 7 days
prior to the end of the Replace with "at any time within the last seven days of the" month. Citizens may nominate
themself- Replace with "themselves" or another citizen Replace with "other citizens" in this thread. Citizens may
also post pre-nominations in the Election Office thread if
they will not be present during the nomination period.
This nomination thread should contain a description of the
office.
b. All debates will be within Replace with "Confined to" the nomination thread, and will
continue through replace with "until" the end of the election cycle. Any citizen
may post questions for the candidates to answer. Candidates
may answer or not answer as they wish.Replace with - "Candidates are under no obligation to respond to such questions.
c. A nomination is not considered Accepted until the candidate
makes an explicit post.All self-nominations are considered
Accepted unless otherwise stated. Confusing? Replace with "Nominations are only considered accepted when the prospective candidate has posted to this effect in the Nomination Thread. An accepted nominee is then considered a candidate for the office, except where disqualified as set out in Para. 2.b"

2. Election polls
a. Election polls will be created by the Election Office 3
days after the Nomination threads are created. These polls
will contain the names of all Accepted candidates for the
office, a description of the office, a link to the
nomination thread, be set to run for 3 days and be marked
private.

Replace all this with
"Elections to Office.
Elections will be conducted by the Election Office 3 days after the Nomination Threads are posted. All candidates will be listed in the poll, along with a description of the office and a link to the relevant nomination thread. The poll will be closed 3 days after it has been posted"

b. Should a citizen Accept multiple nominations, and does not
explicitly clarify which office they wish to run for, the
Election Office will use the first office they Accepted. Replace with - "A citizen may not be a candidate for more than one position. Where a citizen accepts more than one nomination then that citizens canditature for all positions will be rejected."
c. The citizen with the most votes at the close of the poll
is the winner of the election. Should two or more
candidates tie at the end of the election poll with the
same number of votes, a runoff election of two days
duration will be conducted with the tied candidates only.
This process shall continue until one candidate receives
the most votes.

I don't like 2c. The president should decide a tie breaker IMO

3. General
a. The Election Cycle will run from the first nomination thread
is opened until the last runoff poll closes.
b. All threads and polls should be posted at approximately 00:00
GMT on the correct day.

4. Deputies
a. For all positions with deputies, the leader may appoint the
citizen of their choice as their deputy.

5. Vacant Offices
a. An official or Justice may declare themselves to be
Absent for a period of time. This period may not exceed 1
week. During this time, the deputy or pro-tem will act
with all power and duties of that office, surrendering
them to the official or Justice when they return or at
the end of the planned absence, whichever comes first. What does this mean? If an office is vacated or an officer goes AWOL then the deputy must fill the position until a new election is held surely?

b. Should an official fail to post in the DG forum for 3
days in a thread related to their area without prior
notice, the Judiciary may declare that office Vacant.

c. If a Justice has not posted on any active Judicial matter
for three days, the remaining Justices may declare the
Justice Vacant. If all three Justices fail to post on
any active Judicial matter for 3 days, the President may
declare all Judicial offices Vacant, and immediately
appoint a new Chief Justice.

So what happens if an office is vacated? Do we wait until the next election cycle or re-poll immediately. Does the deputy take over - in which case we have a non-elected official who was appointed by someone who is not even contributing to the process in the position, or does the president make an appointment. This is not clear to me

I. Polling Standards
1. Any poll posted by an official of the Democracy game is considered
official and binding, unless otherwise stated.

2. All polls must simply and clearly state the question and all
options in a neutral manner, and contain an abstain option.

3. A poll should state the objectives of the poll and the time
limit (if any) of the poll.

4. A poll must also contain all releveant information, including
links to the respective ministry thread, discussion, and other
polls.

5. All official polls will be public unless they deal with
specific citizens. Those polls must be private.

What about unofficial polls and confirmation polls. Can anyone post a poll? If so where?

ravensfire · Mar 10, 2005

Mad-bax,

You'll want to start by creating a discussion thread in the Citizen's forum with the changes, and see how that runs. If there's no discussion, strong approval, post a proposed poll in that thread. This would list the before text and the after text of each section. Assuming nobody has significant problems, you'll then ask the Judiciary to review the law (it's a check for violating any other sections, not if it's a good or bad law). If that passes, the CJ will post a poll for citizens to consider.

-- Ravensfire

mad-bax · Mar 10, 2005

OK thanks. I apologise for posting in the wrong thread. I'll get the hang of it soon.

ravensfire · Mar 10, 2005

mad-bax said:
OK thanks. I apologise for posting in the wrong thread. I'll get the hang of it soon.

No harm, no foul - we're here to help!

-- Ravensfire

ravensfire · Mar 10, 2005

Provolution said:
Honorable Judiciary

I want to file a Citizen Complaint, against, surprise, citizen Provolution, for filing an unnecessary Judicial Review and disturbing the common peace.

I find this CC to have NO MERIT. The citizen was exercising his rights, as guaranteed by Article A of the Constitution.

-- Ravensfire, Public Defender

ravensfire · Mar 10, 2005

Provolution brings before the court the following question:

provolution said:
Question. Has Donsig violated the following Article (CoL H.5) based on failure to post both acceptance AND any other post, transgressing the 3 day limit for the Judiciary to define the vacancy of a vacant office?
Did Donsig Post a Notification of Absence?

In addition, the question of whether deputies are officials was raised.

Citizen Comments
There were no citizen comments on this matter

Relevant Law
From Section H of the Code of Laws:

Code:

    4.  Deputies
        a.  For all positions with deputies, the leader may appoint the 
            citizen of their choice as their deputy.
    
    5.  Vacant Offices
        a.  An official or Justice may declare themselves to be 
            Absent for a period of time. This period may not exceed 1 
            week.  During this time, the deputy or pro-tem will act 
            with all power and duties of that office, surrendering 
            them to the official or Justice when they return or at 
            the end of the planned absence, whichever comes first.
            
        b.  Should an official fail to post in the DG forum for 3
            days in a thread related to their area without prior 
            notice, the Judiciary may declare that office Vacant.

Analysis
There are several questions in this review. In light of the events since the filing, I am considering this a generic request for future events, not specifically tied to Donsig.

From reviewing the law, there is no requirement for a citizen to post their acceptance of an appointment. A citizen may post nothing, post an acceptance or post as that appointed official (a de facto acceptance). In all three cases, the presumption must be made that the citizen has accepted that appointment.

There is also, however, nothing that bars an official from rescinding that appointment, unless the appointment is to an elected office. It is in the best interests of Fanatannia that once a citizen has been appointed to a Vacant office, that citizen may not be removed except through due process.

The second question concerns the requirement for officials to post every 3 days. Should an official fail to post for 3 consecutive days, "the Judiciary may declare that office Vacant." The key word in that clause is "may". The Judiciary is free to review all circumstances around the situation to determine if the office should be declared vacant.

Finally, the question of whether deputies are considered officials. Section 5.a of the Code of Laws ("An official or Justice may declare themselves to be Absent for a period of time. ... During this time, the deputy or pro-tem...") It is clear that deputies are not considered officials, unless they are acting as the official due to an Absence or have directed to do so by that official.

Ruling
There is no requirement for an appointed official to post their acceptance of that appointment. Likewise, there is nothing to bar an official from rescinding an appointment to a non-elected position.

There is also no requirement that the Judiciary MUST declare an office vacant if the citizen holding that office fails to post for 3 consecutive days. The Judiciary may consider all factors when making their decision.

Finally, Deputies are not considered officials unless they are acting as such during an Absence or are directed to do so.

-- Ravensfire, Public Defender

ravensfire · Mar 10, 2005

mhcarver brings before the court the following questions:

mhcarver said:
1. What is the definition of "mid term"? this could mean several things such as an initial appointment being rejected, the position becoming vacant by resignation or absence or the appointment being made after the 15th or 16th of the month
2. If the Vice President is confirmed by the consuls is he/she still subject to a confirmation poll by a citizen? if so must that citizen wait until before or after the consuls have voted?
3. are Citizens appointed to positions such as deputy or Vice president immediately after elections subject to confirmation polls?

Quick format - skipping my usual sections due to time constraints

Ruling
1. A mid term appointment is any appointment after the first "cycle" of appointments, if this first cycle happens within a reasonable amount of time after starts. A cycle is an uninterrupted process of finding a citizen to be appointed, including confirmation polls and a brief period to find candidates. A citizen may be appointed only once in a cycle.

An example is citizen A is appointed to a vacant office. There is a confirmation vote that results in the appointment being over-turned. Citizen B is then appointed, and again the confirmation votes fails. The President waits a week, then appoints citizen C. Citizen's A and B are normal appointments, citizen C is a mid-term appointment.

2. Currently, there is no process to challenge the appointment of any citizen to a deputy position, so this question is moot.

3, There currently is no process to challenge the appointment of any citizen to a deputy position, including the Vice-Presidency.

-- Ravensfire, Public Defender

ravensfire · Mar 10, 2005

The Office of the Public Defender concurs with the Chief Justice's comments on the JR's requested by Nobody.

-- Ravensfire, Public Defender

Ashburnham · Mar 10, 2005

The original Review request:

Provolution said:
Question. Has Donsig violated the following Article (CoL H.5) based on failure to post both acceptance AND any other post, transgressing the 3 day limit for the Judiciary to define the vacancy of a vacant office?
Did Donsig Post a Notification of Absence?

Relevant Articles

CoL Section H.5

Code:

5.  Vacant Offices
        a.  An official or Justice may declare themselves to be 
            Absent for a period of time. This period may not exceed 1 
            week.  During this time, the deputy or pro-tem will act 
            with all power and duties of that office, surrendering 
            them to the official or Justice when they return or at 
            the end of the planned absence, whichever comes first.
            
        b.  Should an official fail to post in the DG forum for 3
            days in a thread related to their area without prior 
            notice, the Judiciary may declare that office Vacant.

Firstly, I have to say that I disapprove of using the word "violated". For reasons I will state below, no violation of the law was performed.

To start: no, Donsig was not in violation of the law by failing to post an acceptence of his appointment. There's nothing in the books that requires such a move, so he certainly can't be in violation of it. Secondly, while it is true that Donsig went more than 3 days without a post, all that means is that the Judiciary then has the right to declare him absent. It's not automatic.

Conclusion
All in all, CoL H.5 worked just as it was supposed to. Nothing was "violated". There's nothing requiring an acceptence, and there's nothing requiring the Judiciary to declare an office vacent. To be fair, if a citizen had made the request to declare the Vice Presidency vacent before Donsig had registered as a citizen, I would have been hard pressed to defend his office. However, that's all in the past. As it stands now, nobody violated CoLH.5

As an aside, I would like to disagree with my colleage ravensfire about deputies not being considered "officials". I fear that making a distinction like that can only lead to further loopholes in an already loopy constitution.

Term 1 ~ Judiciary : Interpereting the Great Experiment!

Deity

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Moderator

Deity

Inventor

Inventor

Deity

In Retrospect

Deity

Sage of Quatronia

Deity

Member of the Opposition

Deity

Member of the Opposition

Member of the Opposition

Member of the Opposition

Member of the Opposition

Member of the Opposition

King

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