COTM 10 Spoiler 1: Entering middle ages

This is only my second COTM, and I'm still playing too fast. I'm going to have to learn to to slow down and think more!

I started by moving my scout east and worker west. If that didn't reveal anything I was planning on settling south. But the west looked good enough and I followed my worker west.

Karakorum was settled in 3950BC. My build order was scout, scout, granary, settler. Given the start I wanted to explore quickly to try and settle in food rich areas. I set science to 0% as I was hoping to pop techs from goody huts. Hey, to even try keep up with you guys I've got to rely on luck I "researched" Ceremonial Burial to avoid popping the cheapest tech. My plan was to go for the Republic slingshot only once I popped or traded alphabet and in the mean time saving money for trades or sustain full research later.

I pop Bronze working in 3750BC. My next two pops in 3550BC (both) yield Warriors who join the search. In the same here I make my first contact, but Russia had nothing to trade.

In 3200BC I made contact with Korea and traded pottery & warrior code for alphabet & 35 gold. I then switched to writing @ 100% science going for the republic slingshot. The hut popping didn't work as well as I'd hoped Next turn I traded warrior code to Russia for all their gold (22) before Korea could.

In 3100BC I popped Ceremonial Burial and in 3000BC make contact with China - the Great Wall is a surprise! I trade Alphabet to China for Masonry and 10 gold; Ceremonial Burial to Germany for 13 gold and trade Masonry + Ceremonial Burial to Korea for the Wheel.

In 2950BC Karakorum grows to 3 - my granary is still 5 turns away. I could've popped a settler by now if I didn't bother with the granary and given the wheat floodplain site I've since discovered, in hindsight this was probably the way to go.

In 2750BC my granary is produced - growth and settler to come in 6 turns. I move my worker to the floodplain wheat site to start preparing in advance - I'm planning on pop rushing from that site.

In 2510BC Karakorum produces settler which moves towards the floodplain wheat site. It's a bit far away but food rich enough to make me think it's worth it. To justify the granary investment, I switch to another settler (6 turns) I pop a goody hut same turn but only get gold which due to the frugal science rate I started with I don't need!

Karakorum produces a second settler 2270BC which heads west to the coast grasslands. My first settler is still on its way! Ta-Ta is founded next turn and will grow in 4 turns. I found Kazan on the west coast in 2150BC. After a little micromanaging to save gold, writing is researched in 2030BC. Code of laws at @ 100% will take 23 turns.

Karakorum produces another settler in 1790BC and I switch to an archer to take care of barbs. The settler moves W to the bonus grasslands. In 1675BC China trys to bully me for writing - I refuse and they back off.

In 1675BC Ta-tu pop rushes a settler and my (3rd) settler from Karakorum founds Almarikh. The pop-rushed settler heads to the grassland wheats to the SE to found Tabriz. In 1650BC I trade China writing + 23gp for horseback riding which I then traded to Korea with writing for iron working + 21gp.

Kazan produces a settler in 1500BC and it moves SE to found Ulaanbaatar to secure horses (and incense)

Since everyone else has writing I trade it 1425BC to Russia for mysticism and 2gp. In
1325BC I trade code of laws to Korea for maths + 27 gp and establish embassies with
everyone. Philospy comes in 1225BC and I grab republic as my free tech. I draw a 4 turn anarchy. I switch to literacy and switch Karakorum to a courthouse pre-build for the Great Library.

In 1025BC Russia threatens for maths and back off when I reject. In 1000BC I trade philosophy to Korea for map making + 25 gold. My QSC status is 7 cities, 21 citizens, 3 workers, 1 scout, 8 warrior, 1 archer, 1 spearman, Literature to come in 4 turns with Currency, Construction, Polytheism and Monarchy unknown.

After learning literature and making sure I've got a head start on the Great Library, I
switch science to 0%. I focus on connecting luxuries and rushing settlers in the food rich Ta-Tu and Tabriz to expand my terriority. I gave priority to luxuries and food deciding to fill in terriority gaps later.

In 70BC, I joined the middle ages (still at 0% science). I had 14 cities and 42 citizens as well as the beginning of an army - enough to keep everyone peaceful. The plan now is to use galleys to find other contacts (probably left this too late) and then pick on Germany first (to get iron). I've traded for Library and am a few turns away from the Statue of Zeus. So Ancient Cavalry together with some mass-upgraded Keshiks will be my invasion force. I'll build Leonardo's if I can to help out with the mass upgrades.

Not my best game - I've been focusing too much on finishing instead of playing, but I'm in a good enough position to win. But I'm not a warmonger by nature (I get bored), so it'll be drawn out victory though.

robert_s said:

I switch to literacy and switch Karakorum to a courthouse pre-build for the Great Library.

I've traded for Library and am a few turns away from the Statue of Zeus. So Ancient Cavalry together with some mass-upgraded Keshiks will be my invasion force. I'll build Leonardo's if I can to help out with the mass upgrades.

Not my best game - I've been focusing too much on finishing instead of playing, but I'm in a good enough position to win. But I'm not a warmonger by nature (I get bored), so it'll be drawn out victory though.

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it seems you are building too many wonders.

This has certainly been my most interesting (and frustrating) game of civ ever. I went north and west of the start a few paces, and settled on a river. After planting another city (this one on the west coast), a Korean warrior went directly to my capital, declared war, and attacked. Fortunately, it lost. A bit shaken, I went on my merry way. I was mulling a palace move to a nicer place; I liked the grassland on wheat, and considered jumping my civ there. The decision would be taken out of my hands, however.

I should've seen it coming; three Russian warriors heading for my territory should've set off the alarm bells, but I went about my merry business. That is, unitl they declared war. Not having the necessary troops, I decided to abandon the capital and try to save the neighboring city. I also had a settler at this point, and it was sent to the grassland wheat. I had all but decided to move, but the appearance of horses near my city complicated matters somewhat. However, I finally pulled the trigger. At this point I was in dire straits. I was hemmhoraging money, and all my units were 15-20 tiles from my capital. They made the long and painful trek eventually, and I started over at the new spot, 3000 years too late. (I don't quite remember, but I may have actually just had 1 city at 1000 bc).

The new position served me well; I expanded to the food rich NW and shield rich SE. I hadn't even fallen that far techwise. I was beginning to get my feet back under me when my fledgling nation was thrown for another loop.

Two countries entered the middle ages, and about 30-40 barbarian horsemen showed up on my doorstep. Having probably about 8 soldiers (warriors and archers), I was quite ill-prepared. I didn't have the troops to kill them; they hit 3 workers that I neglected to move, sacked a one city on the order of 15-20 times, pillaged a number of tiles, and just generally caused havoc. It took me a long time to get rid of them, putting me even further behind. I researched the rest of the AA, and I entered the MA in 400 AD (!!!).

This little story sums up my game:
I had about 13 gold and was researching at 100%, losing 1 gold per turn. In the interturn, China demanded all 13 of my gold. Being in no position to fight a war (beset by barbarians as I was, and with practically no military besides), I was forced to give in. Having no gold and negative per turn, I lost the granary in my capital!

Prospects for the future:
Grim. I pulled a coup and managed to get the horses and incense near the starting position, but it's lightly defended and far from the core. I have gems coming, too, but that won't support a republic. I have little land and population, and I can't grow too much more. The Keshik will help, but I don't know that I have the construction/financial abilities to make/upgrade many of them. Nonetheless, that's my only option.

davidcrazy said:

it seems you are building too many wonders.

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Probably! Wonder building is a habit I've managed to break away from, but this game seems to be bringing out the worst of me. I think my biggest problem is that I didn't start with a strategy of what I wanted to accomplish. I know, big mistake! I don't think the Great Library was a bad call - I needed some culture (and it has helped to flip one Chinese city so far) and the cash flow from 0% science has helped with trades and rushing/upgrades.

The SoZ wasn't planned but since I had ivory in a trade I decided to go for it as it's a militaristic wonder and could come in handy if I need to trigger a golden age without war. Now if I had already committed myself to a Keshik domination/conquest it would have been a waste, but this is where the lack of strategy is coming in!

As it turns out, I did need SoZ to trigger my golden age. I've been way too peaceful for the Mongols! And while it's way too late to make this sort of decision, I'm itching to go for a 100K victory. I've never had one of those before (20K always seems to come before). I'm probably risking a loss here (diplomatic or space) since I've left it so late and the Mongols aren't exactly culture vultures, but it's seems like a fun challenge and might wake me up instead from just plodding through the game.

shortguy:
Wow! I have known a few civs to declare an early war, but I don't know that I've ever seen 2 civs do this. I wonder what triggerd this?

DON'T GIVE UP! Try to get to the MA and into some form of government (Monarchy or Republic). Then get some Keshiks. Of course, by this time, the AI will have Muskets and maybe even Cavalry? Maybe one of the Civs (Russian, Korean, China) will not have Saltpeter or Horses. Pick on them.

my game went quite well though the starting posiition is terrible.
after getting the republic slingshot, i got a 2 turn anarchy!

this's the shortest anarchy i've had with a non-religious civ and also my first time to get this slingshot since i didn't play conquest normally.

then i went to conquer Russia with the help of Korea. Moscow has the Colossus. Now here is my question: i know since Moscow is so far away from the capitol, most gold will go to corruption. but will the gold generated by Colossus also go to corruption?

7 cities, 13 pop,5horsemen,3worker,1archer,2warriors, 2 granaries


Korea and China were the next target and were pretty easy to deal with. I allied Japan against China and was depressed to see that they were doing very well and started to lay a seige to Beijing. I couldn't let Japan get too strong and so also declare on them, which will be covered in the next spoiler.

al_thor said:

shortguy:
Wow! I have known a few civs to declare an early war, but I don't know that I've ever seen 2 civs do this. I wonder what triggerd this?

Click to expand...

I don't know, either. My military was no more pathetic than usual. Perhaps the creator ratched up the aggression some?

DON'T GIVE UP! Try to get to the MA and into some form of government (Monarchy or Republic). Then get some Keshiks. Of course, by this time, the AI will have Muskets and maybe even Cavalry? Maybe one of the Civs (Russian, Korean, China) will not have Saltpeter or Horses. Pick on them.

Click to expand...

Oh, it's definitely still winnable; I'm just not sure that I can do it. Priority 1 now is luxuries. I have republic, but with no luxuries it's not going to work. One is in my territory, another is within reach. I can have two sources of the second, so trades'll help. And I suppose the Mongols are almost the best civ I could've hoped for in this situation. Only the Indians (better non-iron knight replacement) and perhaps Iroquois (MW's still very good in early MA) would be better.

It was touch and go for a while, but I should be in the clear (barring another unfortunate declaration). Now about the winning part....well, it's been "fun" regardless, and if I manage a win this will be my greatest game ever.

DBear's CotM10O Ancient Age highlights:

Towns founded:
3900BC Karakorum
2070 Ta-tu
1790 Kazan
1400 Almarikh
1150 Tabriz
975 Ulaanbaatar
710 Hovd
610 Darhan
430 Dalandzadgad
350 Mandalgovi

Technologies:
4000BC Pottery, War Code (start)
3000 CB (goody)
2950 Bronze (goody)
2900 Wheel (learn)
2150 Horseback (learn), mason + alpha (trade)
2110 Iron (trade)
1750 Mystic (trade)
1475 Writing (learn)
1325 Math (trade)
1150 Philo (learn), Lit (bonus)
1025 Poly (trade)
1000 Mapping (trade)
610 Currency (learn), Law (trade)
250 Construct (learn), monarch (trade)

Wars:
490BC- Russia. Ally w/Koreans to 270 BC

contacts:
3500BC Russians
2800 China (embassy 1475BC)
2550 Korea (embassy 1325BC)
470 Japan (embassy 470BC)

Scores:
QSC: 2717 (mapstat said 4140)

the revamped barbs didn't affect me--I got maps once, gold twice, and tech twice.

The Barb SoD outside Darhan would be trouble, but I have nothing to steal. I have some taxmen working so I can pay off a trade deal per turn.

Open, latest patch, barbs fix
Goal: Conquest
Ancient Era update: 4000BC-0450BC

Pre-History thoughts: Although we are on a larger world, I want to try conquest this time. Concerned about continents, hoping there is a sea passage, as I don’t like to research that long and really don’t want to build libraries. Using Crpmapstat on the opening file I see Korea, Scandinavia and Portugal have Alphabet. Suspect only Korea is close and not sure I’ll get that trade. Will start off full science. I love the new goody hut concept and hope that means more of them closer. Have no idea what I’ll build yet, 1-2 scouts, then settler or granary. Really need to find the starting city spot to determine that. Based upon our upper corner start I will send the scout S and the worker W. Probably minor choice, but I want that scout moving S quickly since we are in the upper right corner. I’ll have more desert and tundra to deal with as well as raging barbs – hmm – could be a good money generator.

General Exploration
Scout1 – South, some to the East – saw ‘Great Wall’
Scout2 – West, then South
Warrior1 – Northern area
Warrior2 – Along China Wall, Northern Area

CITY FOUNDING & CONSTRUCTION (to 1000BC)
FOUNDED - NAME - PRODUCTION DETAILS
3950BC – Karakorum (1W) – Scout, Granary, Settler, Settler, Barracks, Warrior, Worker, Chariot, Worker, Settler, Settler
2590BC – Ta-Tu (2W) – Granary, Worker, Settler, Worker, Worker, Settler
2270BC – Kazan (4W,1SW) – Granary, Worker, Worker, Settler
1750BC – Almarak (5SW) – Barracks,
1350BC – Tabriz (4E,2SE)
1100BC – Ulaanbaatar (8SE)
At 1000BC - Haven’t been escorting the settlers, but instead put the limited military I have in the mountains/hills to ensure barb huts don’t pop up in the areas I’m moving into. Next moves are toward the southeast to fill in. China has already come beyond their wall.
At 0450BC – very little expansion left available. Still need to connect furs and spices – have gems and spice.

GOODY HUTS
DATE – DETAILS
3700BC 25gold
3450BC skilled warrior
3350BC skilled warrior
2950BC maps
2950BC 25gold
2350BC maps
Can you say disappointing? With all of these it would have been nice to get a worker or a tech I could trade for workers. I absolutely love this concept. Of course, disgusted with my luck, but I think this is a great addition to the game that should continue. I've never hit so many GH's. I think if one were to get lucky with some workers and then get some techs to trade for enemy workers they could get an awesome start.

DATE
MET CIV
3600BC China (what the X is that?!)
3550BC Russia
3050BC Korea
0650BC Japan
0470BC Other

TECHNOLOGY - DATE/HOW
Pottery, 4000BC start
Warrior Code, 4000BC, start
Ceremonial Burial, 3600BC, trade China
Bronze Working, 3550BC, trade Russia
Alphabet, 3050BC, trade Korea (9 turns earlier than research)
Masonry, 3050BC, trade China
The Wheel, 3050BC, trade Korea
Writing, 1990BC, research
Code of Laws, 1500BC, research
Philosophy, 1275BC, research
Republic, 1275BC, free tech
Map Making, 1275BC, trade China
Mathematics, 1275BC, trade Korea
Mysticism, 1275BC, trade Korea
Iron Working, 1275BC, trade Korea
Horseback Riding, 1275BC, trade China
Currency, 750BC, research
Construction, 0490BC, research
Polytheism, 0450BC, trade Other (3 turns earlier than research)
Literature, 0450BC, trade Russia
Monarchy – don’t have it yet
Have maintained this at the maximum initially and since Republic as high as I can. Gifted Russia and Korea to MA, but they wouldn’t trade even though they got Feudalism and Monarchy respectively. Think I’ll try Feudalism and hope they don’t get Republic first. Maybe they will trade then.

WARS & MAJOR EVENTS
1950BC-1675BC Russia declares war when I don’t give them writing; get nothing from it; no combat
No real problems with barbarians; in fact, I made money off them. Used ‘patrols’ to minimize their ability to generate.

1000BC, QSC status
6 Cities, 12 Population, 3 Settler, 8+1 Workers
2 Scouts, 2 Warriors, 1 Horseman
Missing 5 AA Technologies (Cur, Con, Poly, Lit, Mon)

0450BC, Entering Middle Ages
14 Cities, 39 Population, 2 Settler, 13+3 Workers
2 Scouts, 2 Warriors, 7 Horseman, 2 Galleys

COTM 10 – Open, fixed barbs

From the start, I was hoping to go for a military win because Orthodox lent starts on Monday and I don’t expect to have as much free time for civ, meaning that I wopuldn't have time to play through all the way to the modern age. Plus we’re the Mongols this month. Seeing the starting position almost changed my mind. If I had a food bonus near the start, I would have gone the builder route. As it was, I decided that the map was perfect for an early middle age warmonger game. A fast archer/horse rush would have been inefficient given the distance to the nearest victims. I spent the ancient ages founding cities in the starting grasslands and securing horses and luxuries. My biggest weakness was the slow expansion. I didn’t build my first settler until 2150 BC. The AI didn’t do much better, though, and I didn’t have to worry about encroachment. Meanwhile, the generous river start meant that research went rather quickly. I managed to win the race to Philosophy and got construction as the free tech, which I traded for polytheism, then researched monarchy, which I entered in 530 BC.

Russia was the natural first target because they were relatively close. In 875 BC I connected the nearby horses and started raising an army. Once I built up a number of horsemen, I declared in 470 BC and captured their only source of iron before they could connect it. Russia was in a rather bad position when the war started. They had been fighting with China , so their military was tied up to the east. I also sold them Monarchy for all their gold the turn before declaring on them. Being thick as an AI brick, they revolted immediately despite the presence of a stack of horsemen camped near their borders, so they spent the beginning of the war in anarchy with few offensive units and no iron.

I entered the MA in 390 BC, the same turn I made an unsuccessful attack on Moscow. Because I was using horsemen, casualties were pretty light, but it was still somewhat disappointing to see how many spearmen the Russians had put on that hill.

My civ as of 1000 BC:



Research:
Wheel (2950 BC)
Masonry/BW (2950 BC, traded)
Alphabet (2800 BC, trade)
Horseback Riding (2350 BC)
Iron working (2230 BC, traded)
Mysticism (1700 BC, traded)
Writing (1375 BC)
Math (1375 BC, traded)
Philosophy (1150 BC)
Construction (1150 BC, free tech)
Polytheism (1150 BC, traded)
Monarchy (610 BC)
Currency (610 BC, traded)
Map Making (530 BC, traded)
CoL (390 BC)

Note that for the first time ever, I entered the middle ages without literature. Not too significant, but an interesting fact nonetheless.

The Great Wall of China didn't play much of a role in my game. Aside form delaying my contact with Japan and slightly speeding up contact with China, my action was focused farther west. I figured I'd just leave it in place for now, and wait for cannons to come along.

As for the workers from huts, I got one worker. I popped him rather far from my capital, so he spent a long time getting home and did not get to do any work for most of the ancient age. In the meantime, he ate up 1 gpt in support. Not nearly as exciting as getting a settler. I would have rather just got a tech. In the future I’d suggest popping some sort of advanced ancient age unit, such as a swordsman or horseman, or maybe even some other civ’s UU. Good, but not potentially gamebreaking like an early extra settler, especially if it started as a conscript.

I didn't experience many barbs. In fact, I even forgot that they were raging. The trick was to send a bunce of archers patrolling the tundra and dislodging any camps they came across. The plentiful trade from rivers allowed me to go over the free unit support limit early on. I figures it was worth it to keep the white warriors from terrorizing my workers.

It seems that the main thing I did differently than everyone else was going for monarchy. Yes, I'm as much a fan of Republic as the rnext guy, but the trait/UU combination of the Mongols really lends itself to an extended middle age bloodbath without much research. My goal was to get most of the fighting done before the Age of Artillery renders the militaristic trait useless for anything but half-priced harbors. Monarchy's more than enough to get you to military tradition, which is all you really need if you play your cards right. And with this map I'd rather have the extra unit support than the commerce bonus. Of course, I can see how four starting luxuries can tempt even the most dedicated warriors into republic.

Just a couple of questions (I'm relatively new to cotm).

1. Is using a leader to rush a Palace in a better location allowed?

2. I have a lot of workers and slaves, I've just changed to communism, and I intend to use some of those workers to rush factories in big cities that don't yet have them, is this allowed?

Drugged_Unholy said:

Just a couple of questions (I'm relatively new to cotm).

1. Is using a leader to rush a Palace in a better location allowed?

2. I have a lot of workers and slaves, I've just changed to communism, and I intend to use some of those workers to rush factories in big cities that don't yet have them, is this allowed?

Click to expand...

1. Yes
2. No

Open Class

Attempting a Domination or Conquest victory. In a way I believe I didn’t think this out very well. In 1275 BC Russia demanded tribute, I refused and we went to war. I wasn’t very prepared but I did manage to destroy one town before peace. Russia and the Mongols went back and forth with several wars for most of the Ancient Age and it appeared I finally had them beat. Russia only had one city left and I had just gained a RoP with Korea so I could get to Russia’s last city. While in the middle of Korea with my forces Korea declared war on China. Soon after China asked me to join them and I couldn’t resist since my forces were right in the middle. I typically never tarnish my rep but since I’m going for all war I wasn’t bothered by it. I sneak attacked Korea and took or destroyed about half their cities.

My forces were a little low but I didn’t mind until both China and Korea sued for peace. Figuring I couldn’t hold out with fighting them on a single front I sued for peace as well. At this point Korea was fractured with the majority of their empire disconnected with itself. Since Russia was still sitting on one city I proceeded to sneak attack them. As soon as I attacked their city they attacked and took one of mine. Unfortunately they took my city but I took theirs. The following round I retook my city and destroyed the Russians in 400 AD.

When I sued for peace with Korea they gave me every tech they had causing me to only need 2 techs to finish the AA. In 490 AD I reached the Middle Ages.

I’m currently building up my forces in anticipation of destroying the Koreans. Eventually I may even attempt to force the Chinese off of my side of our continent. The ‘Great Wall’ of China to the east looks extremely forbidding.

So far I have met no one else and my one galley was lost at sea attempting to circumnavigate the southern tip of our continent.

Note to Staff: Who ever created this map I must seriously applaud them on their excellent job. I was very impressed with the ‘Great Wall’ of China. Truly exceptional job. Looking forward to seeing the rest of the map.

QSC Submission
Jason Score: 2395

6 Cities
Population 12
2 Happy
Units 15
4 Workers
2 Scouts
1 Warrior
1 Spearman
7 Horsemen
1 Granary
3 Barracks
1 Temple

eldar said:

2. No

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Worker dogpiles are not allowed, but are you sure it's not allowed to join your existing workers (if that's what "rushing" means) in order to increase city size or production? What you want to do with your existing workers should be your own business. Can you cope with fewer improved tiles? Have you improved all there is to improve? Why not put the workers to use?

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/rules.php

I'd assumed from the question, and the fact that a change to Communism had been made, that the intention was to join Workers to cities purely to provide the population for rushing.

Never mind that discussing this is outside the spoiler's limits....

Apologies - wrong thread

Still - nothing really acting as spoiler.

Dynamic -- from what you say, you popped out Settlers as fast as possible. Do you find that better than building a settler factory in general or was it because there wasn't a good factory option in this game?

Thanks

King Of America said:

Dynamic -- from what you say, you popped out Settlers as fast as possible. Do you find that better than building a settler factory in general or was it because there wasn't a good factory option in this game?

Thanks

Click to expand...

Classic settlers factory is better in most case. Usually I rush settlers only in addition to main factory. In this game I have next points:
1) Republic may be switched early;
2) I don't need the fast research (except Repuplic) (go to 100K with stop science before Education);
3) I haven't food rich places near the start;
4) I don't need early war because AI aren't very close and I don't need AI resources.
5) I have a food rich region far enough for almost shield missing so these cities can grow fast but haven't much shields.
6) I must have at least one citiy with high production for building Wonders or capture Wonders from AI (Pyramids, ToA).

So based on this statements I decided not move my palace but switch to Republic ASAP and rush settlers by cash in food rich region. My 2 productive cities built Wonders because I wasn't sure these Wonders may be built on my homeland. With high amount of cities I have a bigger territory and AI have less. So when I start the war AI will be captured easy. And of course I have more cities for culture.

Dynamic said:

(go to 100K with stop science before Education)

Click to expand...

Interesting!!!
Do you plan to go all the way to 100K without researching Education?

I had the same idea, but then accidently conquered The GL , experiencing my first ever tech elevator ride , and of course rendering ToA obsolete

Well, I just got spanked by Kuningas via Conquest victory in COTM9. I failed to note that Conquest was the only award he lacked to complete his eptathlon. So this time I decided to go a less travelled route: 20k.

I went to the CivFanatics Main Page a few minutes ago, and guess who only needs that one award to complete the C3C eptathlon? I think it is safe to say I am NOT learning from my mistakes. I am really going to have to start paying closer attention to that awards table!

I am deep into the game already, so there will be no jumping to another bandwagon at this point. I'm swamped with work though, so I probably won't be able to compose a summary until Wed. or Thurs.