GOTM 46 second spoiler - Entering the industrial age

I have never, ever tried that. That is a very interesting strategy. What do you do? Just unload and they will automatically switch to the next ship? So theoretically with the right setup, you could have units move from one continent to a city on another continent, and as long as they didn't move they can attack on the same turn that they leave.

How many ships do you normally need for something like that? I guess it obviously depends on how much water is between continents, but I suppose that you need one in the city that you begin with and then enough to chain back so that you can do the same thing again the next turn. I will try this in the next GOTM if there is water.

Here's how I do it.

To move a single shipload of units every turn, from A to C via B as a way-point, you need one ship in port at A, one at C and two at B.

- Load the units at A and move them from A to B.
- Move an empty ship from B to A.
- Wake the units up up and load them into the remaining empty ship at B. Renaming the ships can be very helpful here. In vanilla, with no unit naming option, it can be a juggling act to work out which ship still has the movement points.
- Move the units from B to C and unload them.
- Move the empty ship from C to B.

So at the end of the turn all your ships have moved, and at the start of the next turn you have the same configuration again to repeat the process.

If there are more way-points you need two ships stationed at each one and you repeat the ship-hop described for B at each way-point. If you want more shiploads per turn you multiply everything up.

You aren't getting something for nothing. Once you are running the chain you are using four galleys to move two units every turn instead of using the same four galleys to move eight units every four turns in a single convoy. What you've done is to pipeline the deliveries. The express service can be useful for long chains, for delivering a steady stream of reinforcements into a battle to replace lost units, but it's not so great for delivering a big first strike..

It achieves two things:

1. It reduces the delay for the first units getting into battle, but only if you have pre-positioned the ships before your units are available. The downside is that you deliver one shipload at a time, instead of using your entire fleet to deliver a powerful first strike.

2. It removes the risk of ships containing troops being sunk, as there are only ever empty ships at sea.

I find it most useful as a trick to use selectively if I need to deliver that extra couple of units in a hurry to complete a city capture.

Thanks for the explanation

PS. It's very useful to get that leader back to your homeland fast from the battle front. Then you can use him up for that wonder, and liberate your elites to produce more. It's one of the few uses for the empty ships returning along the chain.

open.

Finishing Spain and Egypt early I found myself without Lighthouse pretty isolated. I had to research to Navigation for save travelling and stopped research then. First time I finished without going to MT. I guess I should have, it would have been faster then with knights.

Persia had erased the Iroquois (as in all games I guess) and I allied with Zulus against them. First towns on eastern peninsula fell quickly, but the rest was tough because I failed to get reinforcements fast.

I had failed to build a FP on my own, rushing one on my second leader (first was a sword-army in Eqypt war) in former Iroquois land. Finished Persia in about 700 AD.

Domination would have been possible in about 850 AD I think. But I decided to go for conquest for the first time. I hope I did not lose to many Jason points

I then attacked Zulus without proper preparation. They had quite some knights and pikes produced. So when war-weariness set in, I made peace for rop, placed pikes on all resources, placed some knights next to their cities and was planning the big bump.

By that time around 1200 AD I was exactly 1 tile from domination, selling some temples in cities about to expand and razing some cities I had conquered.

Finally in 1220 I launched my last attack, but two redlined defender survived in two cities, so I had to raze four conquered cities and finished them in 1230 AD. I had prepared several settlers to maximize land and built eight towns in 1230, hoping that it would not turn out to be a domination win (which I always had before).

Conquest Victory for Aztecs
Game date: 1240 AD
Firaxis score: 5709
Jason score: 9957

I had settled my capital north of start to make a tight RCP3,5 core. By this I lost the chance to have a 4-turn-settler factory because 1 shield was missing. I made it 5-turn during rex-phase.

I should have handbuilt an FP early and rushed my palace on the other continent or at least in Egypt. So I had very poor production throughout the game. Bad mistake! But I had hoped for an early second leader which I was denied for ages.

Creeping to the other continent also was tedious this game. Ship chaining is no fun :shakehead

I like small maps for conquests, this one was particularly nice.

After early expansion I started to upgrade about 15 Jags to swordsmen and started the first war against Spain at 1000 BC. Spain built the great lighthouse. That was very handy on this map.

They were finished in 700BC. Deliberately did not trigger a GA yet. One of my suicide galleys reached the other continent, their tech pace was as slow as ours.

Started the war against Egypt in 650 BC, again with swordsmen.
Researched republic in approx. 550 BC, then literature (just for trading).
The Egypt war gave me one GL and I built the FP in the middle of the Egypt lands.
At the end of the war, after I had tons of jags, I triggered my GA, traded republic and literature and currency for construction and polytheism. Persia got engineering.
After this trade I started a phony war on the other continent to keep them busy untill my troops were ready.
So I researched feudalism (for MI) at max. At the same time I built dozens of galleys (at that time my upkeep costs for my army was more than 100gpt).
Then the long and tedious task of shipchaining started. I lost about two empty galleys per turn, but I think it was still quicker than the safe route around the uninhibited island in the SW (the island stayed empty for the whole game).
I only sent a handfull galleys that way to open a small second front.

Slowly my MI and a few pikemen were taking city by city. Defenders were only spearman in the beginning just during the last 10 turns the Zulu researched feudalism and I encountered some pikes.

First victim was Persia, than the Iroquoise, and finally the Zulu.

Conquest victory in 460 AD. I liked playing this map.

Ronald

Nice win, Ronald!

Some people's games are ALWAYS worth studying (Hint to GOTM Newbies).........And You're on the A-List!

I conques at 400AD. But it is not best result. I make 2 big mistake and build absolutely unused wonders. I think the best gamers will ended at 200-240AD.

Open, going for space or diplo.
AA spoiler

Shigella said:

Ouch! 38 turns is a bit larger deficit than I anticipated.

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Then please let me add another 18 to that.

When I left the AA in 310 BC I had just evicted the Egyptians from the main continent, and in the process generated a GL who rushed the FP in Thebes. I would have been better off with the Palace in Thebes and the FP somewhere in my core, but I just hadn't planned well enough to build that FP by hand first.

The Egyptians had a single town left on the southern island, but two elite swords made sure they were really dead in 150 BC. Since I had made a phony peace with Egypt, Spain would have to die before Astronomy (because of the safe passage). So, DoW on Egypt in 130 BC. This was a slow war because of the towns on hills, but I slowly bashed my way to their extinction in (I think) 260 AD. Madrid had the Gardens for me, which was a real boon with the few luxuries around.

An interesting thing happened near the end of the Spanish war. I suddenly noted with a start that the Persians, my only scientific helper, was down to a single city in their war against the Iroquois. I would have to save them by gifting them a town in my part of the world, but I couldn't let them meet what was left of the Spanish (who had several galleys roaming my waters). And so it was that Byblos on the southern island, that I had gotten in the phony peace deal with Egypt, became the capitol of the Persian "empire".

After claiming the island to myself, it was only infrastructure and all-out research. I managed 4-turn through most of the MA, and entered the IA in 620 AD.

Tech progression:

310 BC: Engineering (Persia)
50 BC: Monotheism (13 turns)
110 AD: Theology (8 turns)
230 AD: Education (6 turns)
280 AD: Feudalism (Zulu)
300 AD: Astronomy (6 turns)
340 AD: Banking (4 turns)
380 AD: Invention (4 turns)
420 AD: Gunpowder (4 turns)
460 AD: Chemistry (4 turns)
500 AD: Physics (4 turns)
540 AD: Magnetism (4 turns) => Overseas trade!
580 AD: Metallurgy (4 turns)
620 AD: ToG (4 turns) => IA

As you can see, not much help from the AIs. They were so incredibly bad on commerce that it was well into the IA before I could even rely on them for gpt deals.

Now where's that final spoiler thread?

Ok, its jag rush time. No research, no settler factory. Just war. Depending on the map and the civs, this might lead to an early dead end. But there will be no other chance like this in GOTM. My first PTW deity victory was with aztecs. I had been inspired by a long video recording of a jag rush opening. Jags can take on just about anything, as long as they are many enough
I settle 1 N to be able to place one ring 3 city on the coast.

I start building barracks and then jags.
I quickly find Spain and declare on them when I have 3 or 4 jags since barcelona is size 2 and defended by warrior. I take barcelona and get a MGL in 3000BC. I build the Pyramids. I move towards Madrid but since its on a hill with fortified spears there is no point in trying to take it. After killing a couple of warriors Spain gives me their remaining city for peace.

I then move towards Egypt for some more fun. I am now building archers for a mixed force. In order to avoid autorazing many cities I move directly for capital. I take Thebes and quickly afterwards get Pi-Ramesses in peace treaty, but only after getting my second MGL. I will save him for the Lighthouse. I research straight for mapmaking since this is continents and I am going for quick Conquest.

I redeclare on Egypt and raze a city that is blocking my road building between capital and thebes to get Spices brought to the empire. Soon after the Egyptians give me another city for peace. All in all taken 3 cities and razed one. My eyes move away from Egypt and start thinking about outer world actions.

Same turn I discover mapmaking I have 3 galleys ready and I send them out exploring. Not finding any neighbours I start suiciding and get contacts with all other civs before QSC is over. A plan begins to form...

By QSC I have explored much of the map and see there is safe passage to other continent. But decide not to use it and instead suicide over to the Persians. Why? Too many turns to reach interesting cities if using safe passage. I want Persians cities for Forbidden Palace.

In addition I am trying something I never did before. Did some poprushing and with the Pyramids it works like a dream. My people are pissed off with me but at least I have an impressive military. I built galleys and swords to fill them. I took the Persian capital in 410BC and had by then also gotten a third MGL to build FP in Persepolis. I lost lots of galleys but thats the price to pay.

I researched Republic somewhere around 600BC but did not make the switch. Had such a large number of military units that I would have run a large deficit.

After Persia I attack Iroquois and then Zulu. Zulus were hardhats, I dont think they had been to any war before and it took quite some time to quelch all their annoying Impis and swords. I guess I should have spawned some wars on the continent before I attacked.

I win by conquest in 320AD. I never reached MA.

EDIT: QSC stats
13 towns
8 workers + 2 slaves
6 swords
5 archers
7 jags
5 galleys
Pyramids
Great Lighthouse
5 barracks
3 temples

@MiniMe: Really impressive progress till 410 BC but a rather slow finish to the end - exhausted?

Did you lose many units in sinking ships? How many settlers did you build?

After the first few lines of your report I expected a QSC-finish

congrats anyway. I was also impressed by Lahore's video (guess you mean that) but didn't think of it this game. Glad someone did!

WOW! I still cannot figure out how some people can win so fast...

OT: DBear, you're not a bear, you're a Bulrathi, right?

Paul#42 said:

@MiniMe: Really impressive progress till 410 BC but a rather slow finish to the end - exhausted?

Did you lose many units in sinking ships? How many settlers did you build?

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Thanks. True that I met REALLY hard resistance from the Zulus. Impis are annoying as they run into your undefended territory. And they had plenty of swordsmen. Big losses and delay.

No units lost in ships since using a version of ship chaining outside the south coast. It assumes the Great Lighthouse (galley 4 movement).

From the south coast there are 5 ocean squares to the safe sea squares outside the persian coast. Send a good half of available ships 2 or 3 squares into the ocean and hope that as many as possible survive until next turn. At the same time have all other boats in safe waters full of units. Next turn move full boats close to remaining empty boats and send all units over. Then move all full boats to safe sea square and empty boats to safe home shores.
--> requires loads of boats, since you will loose many

I built a settler whenever capital was getting too big and unhappy.

tR1cKy said:

WOW! I still cannot figure out how some people can win so fast...

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Hey tR1cKy, if you want a laugh maybe you should read some of my spoilers from when I first found civfanatics - I assure you it was not very impressive ...

Niklas said:

Then please let me add another 18 to that. :mischief

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Ah yes. Kick a man when he's down.

Congrats on your excellent MA progress.

Niklas said:

Now where's that final spoiler thread?

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Seeing as there doesn't seem to be a final spoiler forthcoming (and I'm going to be traveling for the next 2 weeks), I'll simply state that I slogged my way to a diplo victory in 1535 AD - simply dreadful.

My tech rate during the IA was fairly good, but I completely blew this one in the Middle Ages.

One final note to the staff: Like EsatP, my submission indicated "open" class, but I played from the "predator" save. I assume the correct class info can be verified from the saves.

Persian Mercs!! (see Tao's post on Page 1: "In 380AD I felt ready to attack Egypt; my army consisted of 15 Persian mercenaries, 10 catapults, some pikes and horsemen. Thebes fell 400AD. A Great Leader was created and it built me Sun Tzu's. Afterwards I slowly but steadily took one after the other of the Egyptian cities, until finally in 540AD Egypt was assimilated."

Now I remember these from past GOTM's - they had totally slipped my mind. Why did I never see these on my build-list in this game?

al_thor said:

Persian Mercs!!...(snip)...Now I remember these from past GOTM's - they had totally slipped my mind. Why did I never see these on my build-list in this game?

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IIRC - Tao is a Mac player, and Persian Mercs are the equivalent to Medievel Infantry.

Hmmmm......well, I suppose that might be true, but I am not a Mac player, and I recall being able to build them in some C/GOTM may moons ago. I think it was as the Iroquois. I thought that they had A/D/M of something like 5/3/1, almost like a Crusader. It was quite some time ago, so maybe it was the equivilant of a Medieval Infantry 4/2/1. I do remember that they looked just like the Persian Immortals (weird helmet/hat, big blade, silk pants).

Everyone seemed to have a lot of 'fun' with Cleo in this game. I know that I did. She sneak attacked me several times, and it was all I could do to hold her off, especially when one of the attacks came as I was embroiled with the Spanish.

My suicide Galleys had fairly good success, and I was able to become the worlds Tech Broker for quite some time. This enabled me to out-pace Cleo and get to Chivalry before her. Suffice it to say that she regretted the way she had treated me earlier in the game. She ended up taking over the entire SW island, but I cleaned her out of there as well.

In the end, there were only 2 AI's left on the other continent, Zulu and Iroquois. I had been friendly with them for the entire game, as I was just too lazy to go over there and exterminate them like the Spanish and the Egyptians.

Shaka being Shaka, he eventually demanded something or other and declared when I told him to take a hike. He had already had a couple of wars with the Iroquois (I had funded and supplied Iroquois with Lux's and Resources so that he could hold up against the rather larger Zulu). So when I built the UN, the Iroquois voted for me, Shaka voted for himself, and I, of course, voted for myself.

Persian mercs and frankish axemen are the vanilla equivalents for MDI.