So how real is this climate change thing?

IT'S ALIVE!!! :lol:

Once again, this thread rises from the grave to stalk the land and eat your brains..... :eek:

I find it curious, however, that nobody's discussing the actual necro--the article innonimatu posted. The accusation that global warming alarmists are producing bogus data in order to make money is nothing new. Now, let me make one thing real clear: Pachauri's nefarious activities do not disprove global warming--Pachauri is only one guy and this is only a single incident. But it does raise the possibility that some, a lot, or most of the other reported signs of warming are also bogus.


i refuse to belive global warming is real. all the spew we push to the sky CANNOT possibly match the pure numbers of oxygen, nitrogen or any other gases up there.
Gotta disagree with you on this one. Check it out, one global warming skeptic disagreeing with another. :D

I grabbed some figures off the web: Earth's atmosphere is about 5x10^18 kilograms; said atmosphere is about .04 percent CO2; and each human being on the planet currently emits an average of about 1.3 tons (or about a thousand kilograms) of CO2 per year. If no CO2 was absorbed by any source (fat chance) I figure it would take one thousand to ten thousand years for human beings to get CO2 concentrations from zero to their current levels.

But that's only if NOTHING anywhere on Earth absorbs any of that CO2--as I said, fat chance. So it would actually take much longer to happen.

So you're wrong on that one count, but you're right about everything else. Even if the above figures are accurate, that does not mean we will double the CO2 greenhouse effect in one thousand to ten thousand years, because the greenhouse effect is subject to diminishing returns; the second ton of CO2 produces less warming than the first ton.


My favorite thread just keeps coming back......
 
Milankovitch Cycles does a fairly good job at attempting to explain the variations in the Earth's orbit. Information about Solar Cycles and learning more about the Sun is also important.

Is the earth warming up? Probably. Look at the cities being found under the Oceans where the coast was during the Ice Age.

The Earth changes, until humanity masters global engineering & terraforming we'll be subject to what ever nature does. Controlling it will require a massive human effort and may not be possible.

are you claiming there were CITIES 13,000 years ago???
 
according to Plato, Atlantis existed up until ~9600 BC. Jericho dates back 11,000 years I believe, or at least the first walls to be discovered there. The Sumerians claimed the gods settled some of their cities before the Flood, Eridu, Kish, etc. But the Garden of Eden (Sumerian Ed.In) may have been in the Persian Gulf, 4 rivers did meet there and run out to the Indian Ocean during the ice age. About 14.5 kya sea levels rose ~22m within a century or 2 as the Antarctic ice sheet began breaking up, that would have been enough to drown people all over the planet and inspire flood myths. The Tlingit of Alaska believe the Flood happened 14,000 years ago, the timing aint coincidental.
 
according to Plato, Atlantis existed up until ~9600 BC. Jericho dates back 11,000 years I believe, or at least the first walls to be discovered there. The Sumerians claimed the gods settled some of their cities before the Flood, Eridu, Kish, etc. But the Garden of Eden (Sumerian Ed.In) may have been in the Persian Gulf, 4 rivers did meet there and run out to the Indian Ocean during the ice age. About 14.5 kya sea levels rose ~22m within a century or 2 as the Antarctic ice sheet began breaking up, that would have been enough to drown people all over the planet and inspire flood myths. The Tlingit of Alaska believe the Flood happened 14,000 years ago, the timing aint coincidental.

1) Atlantis, seriously?
2) Jericho may very well date back 11,000 years
3) The rest is pure speculation, how can an oral history know that it happened 14 kya?
 
IT'S ALIVE!!! :lol:

Once again, this thread rises from the grave to stalk the land and eat your brains..... :eek:

I find it curious, however, that nobody's discussing the actual necro--the article innonimatu posted. The accusation that global warming alarmists are producing bogus data in order to make money is nothing new. Now, let me make one thing real clear: Pachauri's nefarious activities do not disprove global warming--Pachauri is only one guy and this is only a single incident. But it does raise the possibility that some, a lot, or most of the other reported signs of warming are also bogus.



Gotta disagree with you on this one. Check it out, one global warming skeptic disagreeing with another. :D

I grabbed some figures off the web: Earth's atmosphere is about 5x10^18 kilograms; said atmosphere is about .04 percent CO2; and each human being on the planet currently emits an average of about 1.3 tons (or about a thousand kilograms) of CO2 per year. If no CO2 was absorbed by any source (fat chance) I figure it would take one thousand to ten thousand years for human beings to get CO2 concentrations from zero to their current levels.

But that's only if NOTHING anywhere on Earth absorbs any of that CO2--as I said, fat chance. So it would actually take much longer to happen.

So you're wrong on that one count, but you're right about everything else. Even if the above figures are accurate, that does not mean we will double the CO2 greenhouse effect in one thousand to ten thousand years, because the greenhouse effect is subject to diminishing returns; the second ton of CO2 produces less warming than the first ton.


My favorite thread just keeps coming back......

Will wonders never cease (bolded part)... :lol: .. BasketCase making sense!

No, seriously, I agree - also that SOME scientific findings in the field of climatology re Global Warming may be falsified or exaggerated. It happens in all scientific fields, why should Global Warming be exempt? That doesn't mean the broad conclusions - the Earth is warming, and humans are contributing massively - are wrong, even though skeptics delight in implying so.

As to humanity influencing the composition of the atmosphere - do we really need to go into that again? It's been proved again and again that we are doing so.

The question of how many thousands of years it would take humanity to get the CO2-concentration from zero to the present level is one of BasketCases famous red herrings, and you probably know it, Basket. :crazyeye: Totally irrelevant... At zero CO2 humanity probably wouldn't even exist.
"Thousands of years to double the greenhouse effect"... nice red fish, Basket. At zero CO2, what would the temperature on Earth be? An ice ball, maybe?

The real question is how CO2 concentrations change from the mean of the last centuries, how fast they change, and what effect that change has on temperatures. But you knew that...
 
Will wonders never cease (bolded part)... :lol: .. BasketCase making sense!

No, seriously, I agree - also that SOME scientific findings in the field of climatology re Global Warming may be falsified or exaggerated. It happens in all scientific fields, why should Global Warming be exempt? That doesn't mean the broad conclusions - the Earth is warming, and humans are contributing massively - are wrong, even though skeptics delight in implying so.

As to humanity influencing the composition of the atmosphere - do we really need to go into that again? It's been proved again and again that we are doing so.

The question of how many thousands of years it would take humanity to get the CO2-concentration from zero to the present level is one of BasketCases famous red herrings, and you probably know it, Basket. :crazyeye: Totally irrelevant... At zero CO2 humanity probably wouldn't even exist.
"Thousands of years to double the greenhouse effect"... nice red fish, Basket. At zero CO2, what would the temperature on Earth be? An ice ball, maybe?

The real question is how CO2 concentrations change from the mean of the last centuries, how fast they change, and what effect that change has on temperatures. But you knew that...

yes, COMPLETE red herring, what (most) people don't realize is CO2 and and H2O vapor absorb different light spectrums so CO2 DOES make a difference

They have played


 
Earth's atmosphere is about 5x10^18 kilograms; said atmosphere is about .04 percent CO2; and each human being on the planet currently emits an average of about 1.3 tons (or about a thousand kilograms) of CO2 per year. If no CO2 was absorbed by any source (fat chance) I figure it would take one thousand to ten thousand years for human beings to get CO2 concentrations from zero to their current levels.
Interesting calculations. I checked your numbers, but ended up at a quite different answer. According to your numbers you should get something around 300 years:

Current CO2 mass in atmosphere: 5e18 kg * 0.04% = 2e15 kg
Human emissions per year: 1e3 kg/y * 6e9 people = 6e12 kg/y
Years to reach current CO2 mass: 2e15 kg / 6e12 kg/y = 333 years

And 1.3 tonnes/year is about the average emissions per capita of Haiti. The actual world average is quite a lot higher (4.4 kg/year in 2006), which give merely 76 years to go from zero to the current levels (assuming now natural sinks).
 
The question of how many thousands of years it would take humanity to get the CO2-concentration from zero to the present level is one of BasketCases famous red herrings, and you probably know it, Basket.
Oh, my freaking GOD, I can't believe you wrote that. You either, civ_king.

This is not one of "my" red herrings. I didn't bring the topic up--Mathalamus did. AND I PROVED HIM WRONG ON IT. Christ on a stick, I take your side on something and you don't even realize it. Thanks for nothing. :wallbash:
 
1) Atlantis, seriously?
2) Jericho may very well date back 11,000 years
3) The rest is pure speculation, how can an oral history know that it happened 14 kya?

You think they just made it up? Everyone has flood myths, very few can give a date - the Tlingit date it to 14 kya. That roughly coincides with a rapid and large increase in sea levels, enough to wipe out entire populations in some parts of the world.
 
Oh, my freaking GOD, I can't believe you wrote that. You either, civ_king.

This is not one of "my" red herrings. I didn't bring the topic up--Mathalamus did. AND I PROVED HIM WRONG ON IT. Christ on a stick, I take your side on something and you don't even realize it. Thanks for nothing. :wallbash:

Oh really?

If no CO2 was absorbed by any source (fat chance) I figure it would take one thousand to ten thousand years for human beings to get CO2 concentrations from zero to their current levels.

But that's only if NOTHING anywhere on Earth absorbs any of that CO2--as I said, fat chance. So it would actually take much longer to happen.
So you're wrong on that one count, but you're right about everything else. Even if the above figures are accurate, that does not mean we will double the CO2 greenhouse effect in one thousand to ten thousand years, because the greenhouse effect is subject to diminishing returns; the second ton of CO2 produces less warming than the first ton.

Then I must have totally misunderstood your post, especially this part. Sounded to me like you were mostly agreeing with him - and it especially sounds to me like you are saying it will take even longer than 1 to 10 thousand years to 'double the greenhouse effect'. That's the part I am calling a red herring.
 
I said it would take less time than "never". One thousand to ten thousand years is less than "never". And no, I did not say "even longer than 1 to 10 thousand years", I said "1 to 10 thousand years". Which was an approximation to begin with.

Mathalamus said human beings could NEVER spew enough greenhouse gas to match the volumes of various gases already up there. I totally disagree with him on that. I totally agree with him on everything else.

If this is the kind of conflagration that ensues when somebody agrees with you on something, I'd hate to see you bump heads with Al Gore. The whole planet would explode. :eek:
 
Oh, come on, you know me. I can't ever let a sleeping dog lie. :D
Mathalamus said:
all the spew we push to the sky CANNOT possibly match the pure numbers of oxygen, nitrogen or any other gases up there.
Is the above true, or false?

I proved it false.
 
Is the above true, or false?

I proved it false.
You didn’t actually prove it. To prove something you have to show how you arrived at your conclusion. Please show us how you estimated the time to be between 1000 and 10000 years.
 
Oh, come on, you know me. I can't ever let a sleeping dog lie. :D

Is the above true, or false?

I proved it false.

Bow-wow-wow... :D

Oh, what he said is definitely false - also called BS, or the hind-product of a bovine - but that doesn't make your "between 1000 and 10000 yrs" correct. Being slightly less wrong doesn't make you right... ;)

Sorry, but you woke this dog again...:lol:
 
You didn’t actually prove it. To prove something you have to show how you arrived at your conclusion. Please show us how you estimated the time to be between 1000 and 10000 years.
Did that in this post.

I also pointed out very clearly (in that post) that my final result was an estimate. Because all the figures I used (and all the figures Pikachu used) are also estimates.

Being slightly less wrong doesn't make you right... ;)
Yes it does. Mathalamus said human beings could NEVER match the greenhouse gas levels currently in the atmosphere. He used the N-word. I don't have to be exactly right; in fact, I don't even have to be right. I only have to show that it's POSSIBLE.

But of course that will never be good enough for you. You don't care about the truth; I'm a global warming heretic, and all that you care about is that I convert to your religion.

I got some heresy for you, right here:
Spoiler :

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:lol:
 
right. never say never. my mistake.

i still don't belive global warming is possible.
 
Mmmm.....actually, you might want to modify that a little more.

Global warming has happened before--for entirely natural reasons, before humans ever existed. What science hasn't yet been able to do is conclusively prove that humans are causing the current warming trend (also there's the possibility that we humans are measuring the planet's temperature wrong--there may not be an actual warming trend at all!)

The safest course is to say global warming is possible, but it's unlikely that humans are causing it. I've seen arguments 200 posts long develop over minor details like that; by choosing to be a global warming doubter, you've set yourself up against people who pursue their agenda with a zealotry bordering on religion. You gotta cover your butt from every possible angle.

Global warming is one of the dirtiest and nastiest topics on all of CFC Off Topic. Be ready.
 
i make one mistake after another.. i really meant the current global warming, not the past ones.
 
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