Montezuma Immortal Cookbook

Personally I'd probably use replays to relocate capitals and then lie to myself and everyone about it so I'll just refrain from doing it at all :lol:

I don't have a problem with others replaying though.

I'll try and review the saves tomorrow - I'm away from my regular setup right now for work and can't really access them here. When's the deadline?
 
Regarding settling SE-E from start location - we gain +1riverside ivory and lose 1 grassland hill. Means you trade 1:hammers: for 1:commerce:. Hammers are more valuable then commerce IMO. And sure not worth losing a turn.
To be fair, since you are talking about the settling location where I went, it should be noted that I picked up those two Grassland Hills squares anyway by settling a City in the planned location north of the Lake (to pick up the second Grassland Corn square).


Further, if you want to compare games in that way, it should be noted that nearly every other game either lost the ability to work the Riverside Ivory (a base 5 output square as opposed to a Hills' base 4 output) OR lost a Grassland Hills square to the south (by settling in place or 1E).


In fact, the way that I ended up placing the northern and western Cities was to maximize the use of the available Hammers-based squares (such as the Grassland Hills and Grassland Ivory squares that our capital did not pick up).
Spoiler Map of my Cities :
Note that this image was already uploaded as part of my turnset report.


Having one less Hammer-focused square in the capital leads to a more likely chance of us working Cottages in our Bureaucratic-to-be capital.


Besides, if you desperately want that "lost" Hammer back, then put a Cottage on the extra Silk that my capital has. Bam, you've gotten your Hammer back, plus a free Commerce, in exchange for 1 Food. Excess Food won't be all that useful for long, anyway, given our low amount of nearby Happiness Resources.


Or, if Hammers are so important to you, work the unimproved Silk for 2 Hammers. Compared to settling on the Ivory, since we can still work the same Grassland Hills squares as each other up until the last Hills square, you will have a difference of:
SE + E = Grassland River Ivory + Unimproved Silk = 3F + 4H + 3C
vs
SE (on the GRiv Ivory) = Grassland Ivory + Grassland Hills = 3F + 5H + 1C

So, it is simply becomes a tradeoff of your 1:hammers: Hammer for my 2:commerce: Commerce. Not much difference at all, except that Cities settled to the north and west in my game will be much stronger Hammer-wise.
 
I will not vote for rush saves, though at least one was was very successful. That leaves 3 REX saves and few other not so hot.


3 place, 1 point for Fleme save. 5 cities, only 3 workers. Like the city placement.

2 place, 2points for Grashopa save. Biggest number of cites, no infrastructure, small cites, JC boxed in, but with enough land for 7-8 cities.

1 place, 3 points for Dhoomstriker. 5 cities, 6 workers + another settler. Biggest number of total citizens (haven't double-checked this). Looks like one of filler cities will have to be built of river. Entertaining AAR.
 
3 pts to obsolete, there is still a heck of a lot to learn from this save.
2 pts to GKey's attack
1 pt to ProPeanut's.
 
lurker comment: i think dhoomstriker blow the competition away here.
i am surprised to see so much development that early without a worker steal. you should do a walkthrough sometime.
 
@Dhoomstriker
With population 6 - happy cap:
Spoiler :

SE: 14 base hammers, 6 commerce from tiles.
SE+E: 11 base hammers, 9 commerce from tiles. Assuming it will grow to size 6 and work mined hill+ivory and switch corn to riverside cottage.
3:hammers: for 3:commerce:.
I doubt we will work silk and sure not waste worker turns cottaging it.
 
Interestingly many agreed that rushing is more effective then rexing on this map. Main concern to me: we going to stay with only one trade partner. But it's still better then facing JC's praets later on IMO. Map will not become "boring" in any case, but in learning thread I prefer chose save that made a right choice.

3 points Obsolete best rush.
2 points Pro Peanut promising rush.
1 point Grashopa best REX.
 
@Dhoomstriker
With population 6 - happy cap:
Spoiler :

SE: 14 base hammers, 6 commerce from tiles.
SE+E: 11 base hammers, 9 commerce from tiles. Assuming it will grow to size 6 and work mined hill+ivory and switch corn to riverside cottage.
3:hammers: for 3:commerce:.
I doubt we will work silk and sure not waste worker turns cottaging it.
I think that the comparison between settling locations should use as similar squares as possible as each other. That way, we can focus on comparing the differences.


I admit that we only have 4 citizens in the capital in my game. That was, however, because there weren't improved squares to work which weren't being used by another City. We are now free to steal the second Corn and grow quickly to Size 6, or even to build a Granary before the Barracks while working more Hammer-based squares, then switching to Food-based squares. I think that I will opt for the Granary-first approach, so that upon reaching Size 6, we can switch away from working the Corn, shrink our Granary's surplus Food, but still remain at Size 6. Regardless of how we go about growing, it will not take long to reach Size 6.

So, assuming that we will grow to Size 6 within a reasonable time frame, let us perform the 6-citizen comparison where neither settling location uses the GRiv Corn, and where the focus is on Hammers (but with a GRiv Cottage beating out a GFor square). Sound fair?
SE:
City Centre 2, 1, 1
GRiv Cot 2, 0, 2
GHills Riv Mine 1, 3, 1
GHills Mine 1, 3, 0
GHills Mine 1, 3, 0 <-- different square
GIvory Camp 2, 2, 1 <-- different square
GIvory Camp 2, 2, 1
Total: 11:food:, 14:hammers:, 6:commerce:

SE + E:
City Centre 2, 1, 1
GRiv Cot 2, 0, 2
GHills Riv Mine 1, 3, 1
GHills Mine 1, 3, 0
PFor Silk 1, 2, 1 <-- different square
GRiv Ivory Camp 2, 2, 2 <-- different square
GIvory Camp 2, 2, 1
Total: 11:food:, 13:hammers:, 8:commerce:

So, actually I lose 1:hammers: Hammer in exchange for gaining 2:commerce: Commerce. Thank you for indirectly pointing out that we won't have to wait until the Happiness cap increases for us to see this distinction.
 
Have you actually read my post?
...Assuming it will grow to size 6 and work mined hill+ivory and switch corn to riverside cottage.
....
Here, I've worldbuilded your save, so cap got 6 pop plus mine and cottage have been built:

Spoiler :


11:hammers: and 9:commerce:
I doubt switching riverside cottage to forested silk will be right choice, but yes it will make 13:hammers: and 8 :commerce: at cost of unnecessary starvation and cottage not grove.
 
Have you actually read my post?
Yes, I did read your message and I fully understand what you are doing. However, my point was that to make the comparison a fair one, we should have similar goals in terms of which squares to work.

For your save, you opted to select a GHills square over a GRiv Cottage square, presumably for the Hammers. I am saying that if the desired emphasis is Hammers, then we should emphasize the same type of basic input (Hammers, in this case) for my save by selecting the PFor Silk instead of a second GRiv Cottage.

Similarly, if you want to work more Cottages before Hammer-based squared, then we should also work 2 GRiv Cottages in your game, in place of working the last GHills square.

I am simply asking that whatever our stated goal, such as emphasizing Hammers or emphasizing Cottages, we should make it consistent when comparing the two saves.


I doubt switching riverside cottage to forested silk will be right choice, but yes it will make 13:hammers: and 8 :commerce: at cost of unnecessary starvation and cottage not grove.
Okay, maybe it will not be the right choice. That said, the exact same starvation and lack of working an extra Cottage that you describe will occur if we work the extra GHills Mine in your game.

By working a second GRiv Cottage square in my game, the Food is actually balanced (12 Food to feed 6 citizens). However, if in your game, we work only 1 GRiv Cottage but also work the additional GHills Mine, we will have a Food deficit (11 Food will not quite feed 6 citizens).

To be complete, your comparison should either mention this difference in Food or else it should focus on the same goal (emphasizing Hammers vs emphasizing Cottages) consistently across games, to provide the fairest comparison.


The barbs took one of JCs cities in Dhoom's game :)
Interesting. I didn't even notice that fact. I just assumed that his low City count was because he pumped out Stonehenge and an early Religion, instead of focusing on Bronze Working and Settler-output. Still, he's not THAT far off from other games, as he has 3 Cities and an additional Settler (and maybe even more Settlers that are outside of our visibility range).
 
Unfortunately, I don't have much time to provide a lot of useful feedback on people's games this time. So, my comments will be very brief. Err... in editing this message, it seems that I wasn't all that brief... just maybe a bit more brief than normal. ;)


@Wafflecakes
Nicely improved capital.
Good amount of Jaguars.
Nice work in pushing the war forward within your 70 turns.
Frederick nicely only has 3 Cities.

I don't like where you put the Pig City. Since you planned to rush Julius and take his nearby City which shares its only Food source with your Pig City, one of those two Cities is going to have to be pretty gimped.
I am not sure that I agree with building a Settler in the capital. If we're spamming Jags and are going to capture a lot of Cities, then we won't also have sufficient Gold to settle a lot of our own, espeically without Pottery. Since you went for early Jags and are rushing Julius before he likely has a chance to get Praetorians going, you won't need Copper for Axemen, so I don't see a useful spot to put another City that won't further kill our economy. We might get lucky with continuing to get a lot of Gold from City captures, but we'd have more success in this manner with even more Jags instead of another Settler.
It's a shame that you didn't wait for Julius' City that was settled on the Sugar to grow to Size 2, so that you could have kept it. It was in a pretty good location, to pick up the GRiv Corn to the SE + SE of your capital, while also having access to both Hills and GRiv squares.


@drlake
Pretty good tech pace with knowing Writing already.
You have a well-developed capital that even has a GRiv Cottage that it can work.
Julius has founded a Religion and owns Stonehenge, a situation which works in your favour.

I'm not sure that I would have used the Pig with the Copper City, as that Pig could better feed a City to the south of the capital, while it also means using up another Hills square that an eventual Pig City could be using.
Maybe build a Library instead of an Axeman next in your capital.
Also, maybe get a unit or two next to Julius' borders and then Open Borders with him, so that you can scout out his lands.


@vranasm
Good use of GRiv squares for Cottages.
You have 2 Strategic Resources hooked up--nice.
Having 5 Workers also helps you to keep on top of Worker improvements.

Unless you're planning on attacking soon, I'd probably suggest going for a few more Settlers instead of continuing to build Chariots, since you have the Cottage supply to be able to afford doing so.


@CivConVict
Nice job expanding.
Nice work in getting so many Archers out.
You have a pretty good amount of tech (partly due to the Silver?) and know Iron Working.

Unfortunately, researching Iron Working and not using it is dangerous with a Roman neighbour, as Rome will then be far more likely to piggyback off of that Research ASAP and pump out Praetorians faster than normal.
Nice Silver Resource, but why whip away population in a City that could otherwise work such a Resource? Guilt at getting such a nice bonus?
I am not a big fan of the City placements around the Pigs--similar comments as I made above for others--sharing the Pig with Julius' City means that Julius' City will suck to capture (although, to be fair you can't know for certain in your save since you can't see all of the land around that City of his). I'd much rather that you settle 1E with your Copper City, though, to pick up 2 more GHills squares, while leaving space for a Pig City to the west of it to use the GRiv Hills square 1S of the Pig there.


@Fleme
I really like your City placement locations.
Frederick has a Religion, which is nice.
Owning Stonehenge definitely works well with City-spamming, since you can eventually get +5 Gold from a settled Great Prophet, and meanwhile, your Cities can expand their borders quicker than normal.

You're really low on Workers for having so many Settlers. However, it is nice that you are building a several of them to make up for this situation.
Julius already has 7 Cities, so it'll be a real challenge to take him on in your game.
The timing of the Granary build could be altered--for example, I'd swap the GRiv Corn for the GRiv Hills Mine square for a turn, get the Granary, and then actually gain some carry-over Food when the City grows.


@GKey
Nice work in pumping out Axemen.
Owning Rome is pretty nice.
Fortunately, you have kept up the Military-Unit-pumping, so we should be able to capture a City or two in between Rome and our other Cities, to help re-open Trade Routes.
Good job in almost knowing Writing.

A lack of spawn-busting is definitely giving your Barb troubles, but at least you have the Military Units to deal with them.
Let's hope that Julius isn't building or doesn't have Chariots yet, or your Axemen-only rush could quickly be in trouble. I.e. even 1 Spearman thrown in for good measure would have been a good id@ea.
It is unfortunate that Julius didn't build you any Wonders, but you can't have everything, right?


@Grashopa
Writing, Pottery, and 6 Cities, not too shabby!
Having some Foreign Trade Rotes with Julius is pretty good.
Wow, Rome already has The Pyramids?!?! It could make for a good prize, but it also means that he'll likely have Iron Working and a ton of Praetorians before we can even consider building an army to go after him.

Is there any reason why you haven't Opened Borders with Frederick?
I think that someone already mentioned it, but your souther Pig City would probably have been better off 1SE on the River and 1SW of the Pig itself. At least you got to reuse the capital's GHills Mine square this way.
You are working a ton of unimproved squares, which is an area to work on. It's at least nice you're building some Workers.


@obsolete
Nice army of Jaguars!
Good rush!
Stonehenge will definitely help in the long run--we almost have a Great Person and the future Monuments in captured Cities will be nice.
Good job in staying focused on your Military Unit production. If you're going to rush, you might as well keep up the Military Unit pump.
Nice call in getting Tech Espionage going on Frederick.
The capital was clearly settled with Riverside plus high production in mind. The Hammers part fits well with your strategy, while moving away from the Coast and onto a River will appease people who don't like settling in-place.
Nice in focusing your Workers on relevant tasks--improving relevant squares, then building a Road to your enemy while continuing to chop out an army.

The war is not won, and we've captured Julius' only visible source of Iron, so it could be fun and somewhat educational to play out.


@(Pro)Peanut_P
Wow, that's a lot of Jaguars!
Given that you settled in place, you picked a good spot for your second City.
Great job in taking down Julius' visible Horse Resource (well, invisible Horse Resource NOW, but a Pasture not on a Resource would have been visible to you).
It is nice that you managed to get Barracks in both of your initial Cities.
Taking down Rome won't be easy, but it should be easy enough to cut-off Julius' Iron, keep the pressure on him, and then take out his auxilliary Cities which don't have Praetorians in them. Perhaps the Praetorian or Praetorians that he does have will then be lured to attacking your units in the field (preferably in the Forests), giving you a chance to eventually only face Archers in his Cities.

Too bad Julius already has Praetorians (well, at least one visible one).
It will be hard to get a good City out of the lands to the north-west of our capital, but at least you're taking Julius' Cities so it won't matter so much.
It looks like the Barbs are encroaching on you, but with so many Jags, you will probably just pick up some free Experience points.


@Edzako
Good work in using Cultural Borders plus the Coast to connect up your Cities to each other for Trade Routes.
Nice job in getting a Fishing Boat for your Clam.

A bit of probs with the Barbs... it would be a good idea to push out a few units to spawn-bust.
You have Pottery but no Cottages--at least you have build a Granary.
For a City like your western one, I would suggest having it continue to work the GHills Mine instead of the GCorn until the Worker finishes Farming the GCorn.


@KidR
Interesting strategy of grabbing The Great Wall AND Stonehenge.
A Great Person will come out in 1 turn--nice.
You should be able to Culturally-flip Julius' Sugar + Corn City soon, which will be a big boon for you.
Good call in building another Settler next, to help make use of your two Wonders.

I would work the GRiv Farm for a few more turns until the Copper is improved. You'll still get a Granary at a reasonably good time, but will be working improved squares the entire time.


@Bobbyboy29
Nice work in connecting your Cities up via Roads, especially considering how far away that one next to Frederick is located.
Good thinking in building Libraries instead of crashing your economy, after having settled a City so far away.
Rome has The Great Wall, which could eventually make for a great prize but will also mean that Julius will almost certainly have uncontested access to his Iron and his Praetorians.
Nice job in getting a sufficient amount of Workers to keep your Cities working 100% improved squares!

I'm not really convinced that you made good use of the Barracks--I wouldn't have built them considering that you've mostly just made Warriors and a single Chariot that have gained experience points.


My Votes
obsolete = 3 points. Nice rush and I believe that this save will be a lot of fun to play out.
Grashopa = 2 points. You have expanded well, have Pottery, have Writing, and actually have some Foreign Trade Routes.
GKey = 1 point. I really like your rush, and I think that having Axemen is generally better than Jags for facing Praets, but you're very vulnerable to even a single Chariot and it is not clear whether or not you have even disconnected Julius' source of Horses yet.

(Pro)Peanut_P = special mention for having a large-sized army and 2 nice supporting Barracks-enabled Cities.
 
3pts. Obsolete
2pts.Grashopa
1pt. Gkey
 
@CivConVict
Nice job expanding.
Nice work in getting so many Archers out.
You have a pretty good amount of tech (partly due to the Silver?) and know Iron Working.

Unfortunately, researching Iron Working and not using it is dangerous with a Roman neighbour, as Rome will then be far more likely to piggyback off of that Research ASAP and pump out Praetorians faster than normal.
Nice Silver Resource, but why whip away population in a City that could otherwise work such a Resource? Guilt at getting such a nice bonus?
I am not a big fan of the City placements around the Pigs--similar comments as I made above for others--sharing the Pig with Julius' City means that Julius' City will suck to capture (although, to be fair you can't know for certain in your save since you can't see all of the land around that City of his). I'd much rather that you settle 1E with your Copper City, though, to pick up 2 more GHills squares, while leaving space for a Pig City to the west of it to use the GRiv Hills square 1S of the Pig there.
The copper city should have been 1E, yes, but I didn't see the land outside the city radius before settling. I probably should have explored further, but my Archer had already taken damage.

Researching Iron Working myself was largely due to the assumption, that Julius Caesar and Frederick are the only neighbours. Usually I'd just go for Aesthetics directly, but either one might delay Alphabet for quite some time (going Iron Working, Mathematics) and there's a lot of jungle to be chopped. There's a good chance doing so cost me many turns in research compared to the other continent(s), but I wanted to be on the safe side.

I was actually counting on my Pig city taking away Caesars only food source. Other than everyone else apparently, I was not planning on capturing his territory any time soon. He's likely going to declare on me, but I'm content with fighting a defensive war or two (while waiting for my cottages to kick in) before going on the offensive myself.
 
Round 2

With the most votes and several special mentions, this round's selected save was from:

**********
* obsolete .*
**********

Save Here

Feel free to discuss the coming turns and play at your leisure. As for the first round, this set will also be 70ish turns, up to turn 140 and go up to about Monday, where voting commences.

You should have enough time to at least finish JC off ;)

Anyone that has not participated in the first round is welcome to join in the fun now!
 
Some comments for us, Obsolete? You were about some gamebraiking decision, you said.
 
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