The Immortal Challenge 2: For the Fatherland

Hmmm Im not so sure about that dotmap. I would quickly move the warrior N from yer city and see if theres a seafood resource up by that copper, if so, settle NW on desert from copper, that way you make space for another city 2W of the 'B' spot, that spot could work all 3 of those gold mines albeit irrigating some of those floodplains out of neccessity perhaps...

Although part of yer strategy to settle like youve shown may have to do with yer proximity to the Spanish, perhaps yer trying to spread further in her direction while my ideas tend to stay closer to the capital...



On a side note, the turns you were worried about wasting with an idle worker couldve been spent pre-chopping forests if you wouldve gone BW first, which wouldnt have caused the small problems which youve mentioned...

gl!
 
Forgive me, I will try to be polite, but I do wish to make some comments.

First of all, this wasn't a very good start (game wise, not skill wise). It's almost 2000BC and you're not close to founding a second city, strategic resources are nowhere handy, and your neighbours aren't pushovers. I usually find Isabella very powerful on immortal. This is because in lower difficulties, Spain's starting techs are poor, but on immortal the AI's have extra techs, so with Isabella's religious bonus, this could be dangerous. What I would do?

Try a slightly more peaceful start, settling on the hill 2 tiles East of site A, and rather than worrying about the copper, farm the flood plains and work the three (!!!) gold mines for powered-up research. Then found the third city 6 tiles North of your capital, a coastal city, also next to the copper, with hills to make it a military production city for a while. It also has a flood plains to get started.

Site B doesn't really have enough farmable land to work all those hills, as unirrigated wheat only supports 1 gold mine. 3 of the 5 tiles next to the river are hills, 1 a plains, only 1 a grassland. It'll be a good late-game site, but not early game.
 
Try a slightly more peaceful start, settling on the hill 2 tiles East of site A, and rather than worrying about the copper, farm the flood plains and work the three (!!!) gold mines for powered-up research. Then found the third city 6 tiles North of your capital, a coastal city, also next to the copper, with hills to make it a military production city for a while. It also has a flood plains to get started.


Sounds like we almost agree 100% on city placement - I would just prefer to settle 5N above the capital to get rid of the desert all together, but really the (hopeful) seafood resource would be the final desider. I would also make this the 3rd city, get those gold mines before yer opponent! :run:

But I mostly play on Monarch so maybe theres something you know that I dont (99.9% possible) :shifty:
 
Just finished playing the next round. I agree - this is not an easy map despite the good start. And I'm afraid things have developed quite differently from anything you guys envisioned here (it's not necessarily a bad thing). I will post the update as soon as I can.
 
Looking forward to it, aelf. Without threads like this, I don't think I would ever be able to believe it was possible to succeed at immortal level.
 
He really teases us with those "I just finished the next round--will update just when you think you can't take the suspense a moment longer" posts, doesn't he? I think he was a burlesque dancer in a past life. :p
 
You know, I really don't want to keep you guys in suspense for too long, but sometimes I really don't have the time to post an update :p This week, for example, I had too many birthday parties to attend on top of work. Horrible! :p

The good news is I should be able to update tonight.
 
Round 2: 2240BC - 675BC

After much thinking, I finally wrenched my mind away from the idea of the Pyramids gambit. I was convinced that, with all the techs we needed to research, we would not be able to get the Oracle. This Immortal, after all. And I didn't want to waste such a good start, where the Great Library is practically served to us on a silver platter, on a risky endeavour that might end the game.

A successful rush on Isabella, on the other hand, might win the game. So, I decided to hook the copper up asap. I sent the settler to the coast up north to check if there was any seafood that would make a coastal copper city worth settling:

immortal15.jpg


Nope. So I guess we'd have to settle towards the flood plains so that we could get the city up and running as quickly as possible (no need for border expansion to get food). The exact location was on the river 1NE of the copper.

Anyway, since we're no longer going for the Pyramids gambit, we went for totally different techs. First, we researched Writing so that we could get a library up asap and start running scientists. We're doing an SE here, remember? That would also take care of the food surplus in the capital. After that, we might research Alphabet if it would not take too long.

Speaking of food surplus, I decided to start whipping to make use of it, so I made a civics switch:

immortal16.jpg


We let Berlin grow into unhappiness and whipped our second worker out:

immortal17.jpg


Meanwhile, we used a few warriors to fogbust. One of them found a barb city close to the originally planned site C:

immortal18.jpg


It seems like a weird location to found a city. And it makes things more inconvenient, especially since it's on a hill. Damn those barbs!

After we discovered Writing, it occurred to me that we had not researched Masonry, so that was next.

We'd built another scout, so we signed open borders with Isabella and immediately sent it exploring - or, rather, propsecting ;) It brought bad news, though. Check Madrid out:

immortal19.jpg


It's a holy city on a hill! That means by the time we get to it, it would have 60% cultural defense and easily 4 archers (at least some of them promoted) with bonuses for city and hill defense guarding it. Doesn't sound like a pure axe rush could crush it without at least 4:1 numerical superiority and ridiculous losses.

And so, unfortunately, it would have to be peace until we get catapults, which means getting Construction asap is in order. Well, I'd still get Alphabet, since we can probably trade it for Mathematics and a bunch of other techs. After that, though, we'd have to make the difficult choice of going for Literature (for the GL) or Construction first.

After Masonry was discovered, Alphabet would still take too long to research (25 turns), since we did not have much commerce to speak of yet, so I decided to research Fishing and Pottery first. The former would be useful to build a workboat for Berlin's clams, while the latter enables the handy granary.

A little later, the Spanish claimed site B:

immortal20.jpg


Well, I wanted to settle a gold city on the plain forest SW of it. But, then again, it's unrealistic to expect it to work all three gold mines, so settling 1E of that was just as well:

immortal21.jpg


And we can capture Toledo later on. It's quite a decent city that can work a gold mine, the wheat and horses.

After Pottery, Alphabet became more reasonable to research (15 turns), so we went for that. We chopped libraries in our first two cities and were soon running scientists to help:

immortal22.jpg


The gold mine also came up and boosted our research. Alphabet was quickly discovered. I wanted to end the round here, but I realised that we could not trade for Polytheism (required for Literature) because we did not have Mysticism. And since it would only take 2 turns, I decided to get it before stopping.

And guess who came by before the end of the round:

immortal23.jpg


Our fairest priestess. Oh, well. Since we want peace for now, why not? The extra happiness would also be handy.

Here's the tech screen after Mysticism was discovered:

immortal24.jpg


Looks like they are going for the Polytheism wonders. We'd have to wait. We can trade for Mathematics right away and start on Construction, though. Or should we get Polytheism on our own (4 turns) and proceed with Literature so as not to lose the GL? Remember, Capac is Industrious.

Here's the GNP graph, just to show an estimate on how we stand in terms of research power:

immortal25.jpg


Not bad, evidently, thanks to the gold mine.

And, in case you're curious, the Oracle has been built:

immortal26.jpg


Yup, I don't think we could have gotten it. Ah, well. The gambit is a nice idea, but not for this game, I suppose.

Here are maps of the known world:

immortal27.jpg


immortal28.jpg


I'm tempted to go straight for Madrid when we invade Spain and bypass Toledo first. If we research Construction next, we should be able to chop and whip a catapult, axeman and (maybe) swordsman army and attack by the turn of the millenium. Hopefully, the Spanish don't get longbows too quickly.

Any thoughts?
 

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Boy, this looks like a tough game! I will be very impressed if you can get yourself out of this position. Is there any risk that Toledo will flip your goldmine away given how close it is? What happens then?

I don't really have any advice because I don't know how to pull this one off....
 
One thing to note: Izzy made the Oracle in 975 BC so she will probably have a GProphet in 50 turns from then and hopefully that will be used to make the Buddism Shrine. You might want to delay your attack a little to get a fully functioning shrine instead of just a holy city.
 
I am seriously looking forward to how this pans out because the position looks dire to pessimistic eyes. If I was playing this, I'd be beelining for an endgame of total annhilation of the German Empire. That's a result I could achieve quite easily from this position.

How long until Construction from here? Do you try and get Iron Working from a trade? Realistically, how many turns away is a catapult stack that could take that capital, and what else could Isabella or the barbarians do in that time? Does she have Stonehenge and does that mean she could put real cultural pressure on your borders?
 
Your position is ok here i think, i would go poly and literature pre chopping the forests. I think you can get to GL first ,Huyna doesn´t have alphabet yet i presume, which is even more important for a pilosophical leader. After this construction and an attack against Spain are on the charts. This will not be an easy fight as you´ll probably fight longbows by this time but ultimately the human player tends to win this fights if well prepared with lots of cats. Longbows are strong but very passive and they fall to cats in the end. You have to attack before Spain has Macemen or maybe Crossbows though, these units are not passive and can just destroy your stack.Also Izzy tends to have horse archers so it would be wise to build some spears for protection.

Indeed you can go after Spain immediately but even then you might face longbows and losing GL will hurt.

Btw congrats on your last game, that was some impressive play :goodjob:.
 
I am sure I will learn something here. If I can learn how to get through this position, then I would be much more confident about winning from other, better positions.
 
I also think that you are in a strong position now but would encourage you to fully emphasize the philosophical trait by targeting philosophy w/ your first scientist. I am currently still playing on vanilla but if the tech tree has not changed I would recommend going for drama as your next tech. As far as I can tell confucianism has not been founded yet and you might stand a good chance of gaining taoism by lightbulbing philosophy ASAP w/ scientist. Research most of drama before trading alphabet and in all probability you will be able to find a trade for polythiesm by that point w/ alphabet as well as picking up math and meditation in order to lightbulb Philo. Additionally, Drama will be available for trade after Alphabet, while you research Literature. Look for a construction trade via Philo. Prechop forests and crank out GL in capital after Lit. as the AI typically does not prioritize this tech. Long term, I would take theology path to lightbulb Paper and Education whiile researching Nationalism w/ gold mines and attempt to grab Representation from liberalism. However, this is from mostly playing on Monarch and Vanilla and I'm not sure how feasible it is on Immortal/Warlords. Nice start though, I am interested in seeing how you manage this game!
 
I think you will eventually want a fourth city 2N of the Pigs. It can work a lot of hills as a prodution city. Don't be in too much of a hurry, as the maintenance will cost more than it's worth for now, and I don't think anyone else will be in a rush to claim it. But when you get a chance put a settler on standby there so that you can claim it at a moments notice.

Techwise, you definitely want the GL, and you want it before the push to Construction. I would self-research Poly, I think -- HC, Isabella, and Brennus are all low on the WFYABTA lists, and Washington is only second-tier, so I'd think twice before trading for something as cheap as Poly. It should be safe to trade Alphabet to one AI -- it'll still be close enough to a monopoly that they won't be willing to trade it further. If you get Math from Washington for it, you might be able to trade Math to HC for IW next turn.

Also, once the GL is safe, you might want to insert Priesthood before Construction is finished. Once it's safe to trade away Lit, you might find good deals like Alphabet+Lit for Currency, CoL, or Monarchy.

Should be fun.

peace,
lilnev
 
It is all these complicated tech paths and slingshots that I struggle to work out. I either take whatever the next best thing on offer is or beeline for something specific. I never think about it as cleverly as has been set out in the last two posts. Plenty to learn here.
 
lol I hope Isabella didn't Oracle Slingshot to Monarchy because then she'd be one tech away from Feudalism and you'd be in real trouble sacrificing ALOT of Cats to take your shrine Capital.

I haven't checked the save game because, I reading the forum from school but you should check Isabella's Civics, to check if she has Monarchy

Assuming Isbella hasn't researched Monarchy

I say research Literature first before trading away Alphabet, Preferable Alphabet for Mathematics for 30H Chops, the GL is about 350H so, about 5-6 Marble chops should get it in the bag, after that beeline to Construction and take out Isabella.

Assuming Isabella has Researched Monarchy

Well, Land is more important then wonders, losing the GL is no big, if your lucky your Prechopped Forest should be able to rush it in time. Trade Alphabet for Mathematics and Then Trade it to everyone else because the AI is gonna trade the tech amoung themselves. Beeline to Consturction and knock out Isabellla before she gets problematic longbows.

A word on GP, the first GP should be a GS to light-bulb Philosophy for the Pacifism Civc, Obviously. If you can Try get a GM to lightbulb CS, Remember to Trade Research Currency, COLs, Monarchy and MC (If your Lucky You might ignore Priesthood/Monotheism which leads to Monarchy). Beeline to Liberalism via GS lightbulbs of Paper and Education, Pick up Nationalism as free tech, If your Lucky you should save couple of GMs to lightbulb Early Constitution for Representation Civic, Remember to Ignore Guilds or your GM will go down the Banking => Economics Route.
 
If he wait for lit before trading away alphabet the AI will most likely have it allready... I think Illnevs plan sound good though if it was me i would prolly just trade for most of the techs from alphabet. I dont think it matter mush as AI tech trading will balance it somewhat. Not trading Alpha to huyna would mean better shot at the GL though so i like that aspect.
 
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