Giaur
War Dancer
@Aelf: you should not research Math yourself, when you can simply exchange it ...
The Immortal Challenge 2: For the Fatherland
- Thread starter aelf
- Start date
Syndrome Zed
Wanna see my quad laser?
I liked UncleJJ's point, that if you hold off for against Issy for a little bit, she'll get a Great Prophet and shrine up Madrid for you. So I kind of like the idea of going for the GL via Lit/Poly first - this gives her time to get her shrine built while you get the GL. As someone else pointed out, she'll tend towards religious techs as much as possible, and she's currently playing "ooh shiny object" anyway, so IMHO you'll have time to go for the GL before racing to construction to take her down.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Speaking as the guy who once captured the holy city of Madrid using only Egyptian War Chariots, I say don't be afraid to be bold. Or crazy. Same diff. 
(I love the new smilies!)
(I love the new smilies!)darrelljs
Immortal
Grenadiers/Trebs beat down Longbows nicely enough...at least as well as Axes/Cats beat down Archers. I think you have a good chance to get the Liberalism->Chemistry slingshot (Gunpowder on a bad day, Steel on a very good day), the hardest part might be tech trading up to Engineering. The question is will you have enough production at that point. Is Isabella one of those leaders that spawns massive city garrisons?
Darrell
zagnut
Monarch
Land is king. Don't delay. I vote for you to trade for Math. Research Construction. Build cats and go to war with Isabella.
Once you get Construction, you might want to trade for IW, but you should go as fast as possible to Literature.
End of plan. The future is too far away.
Once you get Construction, you might want to trade for IW, but you should go as fast as possible to Literature.
End of plan. The future is too far away.
I'd probably go for literature first (it isn't that expensive a tech), then trade alphabet for IW + maths opening up construction and increased value chops. This protects the great library and gives some time to get another city or two running and build the axe/spear escorts for the catapults.
I went back into the save and tried to figure out what tech Isabella slingshot to with the Oracle, and from what I've seen hasn't gotten either COLs or Theology because the religions haven't been founded, she hasn't gotten HBR or MC because their not on the tech screen, and she didn't acquire Monarchy because she hasn't changed civics. Chances are she either Slingshot to IW or Mathematics. Crazy AI :S... at the very least pick the most expensive tech no one has researched... and you'd think that be difficult to code into the AI lol...
About where you're gonna place the GL... I'd assume you'd do it in your Super Scientist City because you're running a SE but on Immortal Level, you have no choice but your place your GL in your capital because time is of the Essence. That I understand but also Placing the National Epic there may be wasteful in the long-run especially with the SE because your cottaging your capital to cover maintenance cost so your not gonna assign many specialist there so I think you should place it somewhere else if your aiming for longterm benefits.
If you need whole lot of GS Right now your better off Running Pacifism after lightbulbing Philosophy then build a NE. That's just my opinion.
Beeline to GL
Anyways Isabella built the Oracle in 975BC, your currently in 675BC and she hasn't researched Monarchy because she hasn't switched Civics yet because she's Spiritual I think that's a safe enough assumption so going for Literature now will be a satisfactory choice for now , as long as Isabella or any other AI doesn't acquires Monarchy (better check that tech screen regularly). I'd also trade for IW and Monotheism to check out the Iron resources and Organized Religion will help us construct the GL. Monotheism also opens up Monarchy so we can see who's got the tech. Maybe we can locate the Sources of Copper and Iron and deny Isabella of those resources. Although that may have a negative effect and force her to beeline to Feudalism.
Beeline to Construction
Obviously the safer choice, but are we may lose out on the free shrine that Isabella may build for us from the GPP points from the Oracle. We also won't suffer from Negative Diplomatic Modifiers if we attack her early, chances are someone ill convert and we'll gain 1 negative DP (Diplomatic Point)
Positive are, we'll be in the more advantages position earlier with more land and gain extra cash in the treasury so we'll be able to keep our research a float for a short time.
About where you're gonna place the GL... I'd assume you'd do it in your Super Scientist City because you're running a SE but on Immortal Level, you have no choice but your place your GL in your capital because time is of the Essence. That I understand but also Placing the National Epic there may be wasteful in the long-run especially with the SE because your cottaging your capital to cover maintenance cost so your not gonna assign many specialist there so I think you should place it somewhere else if your aiming for longterm benefits.
If you need whole lot of GS Right now your better off Running Pacifism after lightbulbing Philosophy then build a NE. That's just my opinion.
Beeline to GL
Anyways Isabella built the Oracle in 975BC, your currently in 675BC and she hasn't researched Monarchy because she hasn't switched Civics yet because she's Spiritual I think that's a safe enough assumption so going for Literature now will be a satisfactory choice for now , as long as Isabella or any other AI doesn't acquires Monarchy (better check that tech screen regularly). I'd also trade for IW and Monotheism to check out the Iron resources and Organized Religion will help us construct the GL. Monotheism also opens up Monarchy so we can see who's got the tech. Maybe we can locate the Sources of Copper and Iron and deny Isabella of those resources. Although that may have a negative effect and force her to beeline to Feudalism.
Beeline to Construction
Obviously the safer choice, but are we may lose out on the free shrine that Isabella may build for us from the GPP points from the Oracle. We also won't suffer from Negative Diplomatic Modifiers if we attack her early, chances are someone ill convert and we'll gain 1 negative DP (Diplomatic Point)
Positive are, we'll be in the more advantages position earlier with more land and gain extra cash in the treasury so we'll be able to keep our research a float for a short time.
There is no need to hurry war against Izzy. Even if she has longbows you have the edge, because you know better how to war. Just go for GL first, you may need more cats if attacking later, but it's not that hard to build 15 cats instead of 6. You can still allready build other units for your stack. And you can't afford to keep her cities before CoL/Currency anyway, hence I'd delay war a little bit and capture all her cities later. That would also guarantee a shrine for you. Perhaps you can weaken her by arranging a war?
The reason to hurry against Izzy is that it give you more land sooner and as we all know land is power. If GL is safe and you think your economy wont crash before COL and/or currency(you can trade it maybe?) going for Izzy first seems reasonable. Ofc you do lose the shrine which would be nice to have and is the major advantage of going for izzy later, though you have no insurance she will actually make the shrine as the AI IS unpredictable.
I'd go for lit first and skip the poly trade due to WFYTBA. Then build the lib and trade for math and IW.
As for Iz, I've often rushed to get an AI before they get LB and found them with LB just as I'm ready to attack. You'll get her--you'll just need more cats and will have more losses.
Aelf, thanks for these threads - a very educative read.
In this situation, I think that Capac is trying for one of the Polytheism wonders already, which likely means he would be too busy to attempt the Great Library anyway, unless the Poly wonders get built. So he's probably not much of a contender for it, and you should still be able to get the GL while attacking Isabella.
Myself, I'd probably attack Spain trying to time it with their completion of the Buddhist Shrine. You'll want Great Scientists and Engineers yourself, but if you're going to capture Madrid and end up with a holy city for most of the game, that shrine could come in useful. You're not getting a Prophet of your own, are you? Though I have no idea whether you can delay the attack until the shrine on Immortal while reasonably sure of no Spanish Longbows appearing. Still, if she's still running Despotism, it might be a risk worth considering.
In this situation, I think that Capac is trying for one of the Polytheism wonders already, which likely means he would be too busy to attempt the Great Library anyway, unless the Poly wonders get built. So he's probably not much of a contender for it, and you should still be able to get the GL while attacking Isabella.
Myself, I'd probably attack Spain trying to time it with their completion of the Buddhist Shrine. You'll want Great Scientists and Engineers yourself, but if you're going to capture Madrid and end up with a holy city for most of the game, that shrine could come in useful. You're not getting a Prophet of your own, are you? Though I have no idea whether you can delay the attack until the shrine on Immortal while reasonably sure of no Spanish Longbows appearing. Still, if she's still running Despotism, it might be a risk worth considering.
aelf
Ashen One
That too, is my opinion. But we're in the minority, for some reason
Have you guys forgotten? Land is power! 
Seriously, waiting for trebuchets or grenadiers would be far too long.Not getting a shrine in Madrid is the biggest downside that I can see, assuming Isabella doesn't get longbows. But can anyone say for sure when and if she would get a shrine?
Anyway, I'll probably play the next round later.
She has the Oracle, so she will have a Prophet soon. Maybe even sooner if she's running a Priest. And I'm almost certain she'd use it for the Shrine then.
aelf
Ashen One
How soon? 50 turns after the Oracle was built isn't soon enough! She might have longbows by then (longbows in hill cities are a real pain and might easily cause a war to be twice as costly). And I'm not sure the AI would choose to run a priest at the same time just so that it could get a prophet for a shrine. And what if Isabella built NE or HE in the same city and end up with an artist by chance instead? The cost in lost opportunity would be depressing.
aelf
Ashen One
There's hope yet. The GL will eventually be obsolete. Or we can just build the NE elsewhere and run as many priests as possible (2 would be enough).
Well, in any case, I promise not to be biased and open the save and think really hard before making a decision.
Harbourboy
Deity
It is a tough decision. Looking forward to seeing how it pans out.
So if you delay a little and she does build the shrine and does not get longbows by then you get a significant asset that partially funds your empire throughout the game and gives extra GPPs. That is a great plus as you've effectively captured her G Prophet and without increasing your own GPP costs.
If you delay and she builds the shrine and gets Longbows how much more difficult would that make the attack on Madrid? If you are lucky she might be slow to upgrade her archers to longbows (I have seen that on lower levels such as Monarch). Upgrading to a longbow will mean that it loses its fortification bonus although that will come back at 5% / turn. Basically how much more of your stack would you expect to lose with longbows rather than archers?
If the extra losses were say 4 catapults that would be a trade of 160 hammers for a shrine of a religion that has been spread. That is a good deal. But there is the additional lost production and commerce from Madrid which also needs to be added for every turn it is not in our control. And that cost can quickly exceed the benefit of the shrine ... so don't wait too long. This is a very difficult problem to reason about
However, if you attack before she could get the G Prophet you'll never know if she would build a shrine there. Incidently when is 50 turns from 975 BC?
Agent Cooper
Lynch's Creation
I would go for the GL and take care of Isabella next - longbows or archers. The GL is a very powerful wonder when used right in synergi with scientists and an academy, even though the GL has a timelimit.
Build the extra catapults to take care of Isabellas longbows if it comes to that - you'll get a greater number of experienced catapults from the first siege, which will benefit you when the time comes to taking down the next spanish cities etc.
Add to that the benefit of capturing a Shrine.
That's my $0.02 anyway...
Knowledge is King.
Build the extra catapults to take care of Isabellas longbows if it comes to that - you'll get a greater number of experienced catapults from the first siege, which will benefit you when the time comes to taking down the next spanish cities etc.
Add to that the benefit of capturing a Shrine.
That's my $0.02 anyway...
Knowledge is King.
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