The Immortal Challenge 2: For the Fatherland

[Godel]

I'd go Lit for the Great Library first. You are Philosophical and have Marble - time to leverage your strengths. With two free scientists you can to a bit more pop rushing or spawn GSs faster.

While you wait for cats you can settle two cities: one to work pigs and the other to work fish. They can function as pop rushing centres or Scientist cities, depending on production needs and happiness available.

 

[Godel]

Also, once the GL is safe, you might want to insert Priesthood before Construction is finished. Once it's safe to trade away Lit, you might find good deals like Alphabet+Lit for Currency, CoL, or Monarchy.

You won't be able to trade Alph+Lit because Alph is a prereq for lit. Still, you can research Priesthood and put sink some beakers into, say, Monarchy, and trade the rest of Monarchy with Alphabet.

But then you have to decide whether to delay Construction to long. If you think you can assemble an army of cats before Isabella gets longbows, don't get sidetracked. In the mean time, build axes/spears to suplement your army.

(I have just realised that implementing all my thoughts are impossible - build army, build two settlers, libraries, etc, etc. Too hard to read the sitaution accurately without openning up the save But I'd definitely go the the Great Library.)

 

[aelf]

Actually, there's potential for success here. Assuming we get cats before Isabella gets longbows and capture Madrid and Toledo, and assuming we build the GL, we'd be in for a good time. But getting there can be tricky.

lol I hope Isabella didn't Oracle Slingshot to Monarchy because then she'd be one tech away from Feudalism and you'd be in real trouble sacrificing ALOT of Cats to take your shrine Capital.
and take out Isabella.

This is what I fear too.

Beeline to Consturction and knock out Isabellla before she gets problematic longbows.

And this, contrary to the majority of opinions so far, is something I would personally do. If she hasn't gotten Monarchy yet, there's a chance we can hit her while she only has archers. Even if she has Monarchy and manages to get Feudalism by the time we get there, she may not have all longbows yet. There's a small glimmer of hope for us.

If we don't do this, our chances will begin to wane. So what if we have lots of GS to lightbulb? We'd be behind in the land game and might only be able to stay ahead for a while. Losing the GL would suck, and I wouldn't just shrug it off, but since Huayna needs Alpahabet (which we aren't going to trade to him), we might still be able to build it after researching Construction.

So, I propose trading Alphabet for Mathematics and going for Construction next. Then we'd trade for Polytheism, if possible, and research Literature. If a GS pops up anytime soon (I can't remember in how many turns exactly), I would use it to build an Academy in Berlin. We'd be getting the Great Library anyway, so we might be able to pop another GS for Philosophy quickly enough. And the Academy would help us get Literature for the wonder earlier (and it lasts for the whole game). We'd chop and whip about 6 catapults out and go for Madrid with a moderate stack. We would capture Madrid, turn back and capture Toledo with reinforcements and then head south to raze the barb city. How about that?

 

[Harbourboy]

That sounds like a sensible option to me. I think you'd be running too big a risk of losing the land game if you don't do something soon. She will only grow her empire further into you if you let her.

All this complicated lightbulbing and popping and slinging seems to me to be a load of fancy showboating and fake martial arts moves that look great, moments before Isabella kicks you in the groin.

Construction, then whack Isabella. That is a strategy I can understand.

 

[cabert]

I'd trade alphabet for maths with washington and alphabet for IW with Brennus. None of those 2 has polytheism, so you should be safe on this issue.
Settling more cities right now will cost you a lot, making the next research steps very tough. Not impossible but tough enough to be a pain.

Don't go construction now. You'll trade for it later.

 

[aelf]

Don't go construction now. You'll trade for it later.

Did you read what I wrote in my last post?

 

[cabert]

Did you read what I wrote in my last post?

yep, you said you'd trade for maths and then would research construction.
I say you don't need to. I would focus on getting the great library.
Or did I misunderstand what you wrote?
Anyway, it's just my opinion, whereas it's your game

 

[darrelljs]

I wonder if those Archers in Madrid were being queued up to escort a Settler...did you keep a unit hanging around to check for that?

Anyway, I don't think Construction is as high a priority as other techs. That barbarian city might be a blessing in disguise, you can hit five good cities without a war of agression, and Isabella is unlikely to attack you as long as you share religion. I would first prioritze the techs for the GL and get that up ASAP. Second, you need to unlock Philosophy for lightbulbing. You need Meditation and either Drama or Code of Laws to unlock it. Being Organized Code of Laws has some obvious attraction (doubt you will get Confucianism though), while Drama can let you run more Scientists AND gives you a discount on Music. The GA from Music can be used to lightbulb Monarchy or Theology and is a very tradeable tech early on. Early Pascisfism + the GL + Philosophical is pretty powerful. With the National Epic (Marble accelerated and unlocked by Literature) in the GL city, plut two Scientist specialists you will be pulling down 60 GPPs per turn with an 83% chance for a GS.

If a GS pops up anytime soon (I can't remember in how many turns exactly), I would use it to build an Academy in Berlin. We'd be getting the Great Library anyway, so we might be able to pop another GS for Philosophy quickly enough.

I always struggle with this one. The choice is Academy or ice 'em for Paper/Education push towards Liberalism. I hear the arguement that the Acadmey is an extra GS source and helps overcome the NE GA points, but in reality it only helps increase the odds of a GS by a few percentage points. Still, as a Philosophical leader I think you are probably right about building an Academy. Even with an aggressive beeline towards Philosophy after Literature you should have enough time to pop a GS in your second city (the first presumably working Hammer tiles instead of GSs to get the GL up faster) before you finish CoL/Drama. Just make sure you are running two Scientists the whole time, and you'll get it in around 20 turns after the first.

Darrell

 

[cabert]

I wonder if those Archers in Madrid were being queued up to escort a Settler...did you keep a unit hanging around to check for that?

You can't expect less defenders in a capital anyways.

Anyway, I don't think Construction is as high a priority as other techs. That barbarian city might be a blessing in disguise, you can hit five good cities without a war of agression, and Isabella is unlikely to attack you as long as you share religion.

the bad thing about that barb city is the number of defenders and the fact it is on a hill.

I would first prioritze the techs for the GL and get that up ASAP. Second, you need to unlock Philosophy for lightbulbing. You need Meditation and either Drama or Code of Laws to unlock it. Being Organized Code of Laws has some obvious attraction (doubt you will get Confucianism though), while Drama can let you run more Scientists AND gives you a discount on Music.

right, but even so it's unlikely to get the GA. some AIs have maths and polytheism already. They WILL go for music through litterature.
Not trading them alphabet will only slow them down a notch but not enough to grab music.
CoL is better. It might be tradable for alpha at some point, if we research part of it.

The GA from Music can be used to lightbulb Monarchy or Theology and is a very tradeable tech early on.

This is so very unlikely that I really wouldn't count on it. The only way to grab this GA is to spend a GA for lightbulbing it .

Early Pascisfism + the GL + Philosophical is pretty powerful. With the National Epic (Marble accelerated and unlocked by Literature) in the GL city, plut two Scientist specialists you will be pulling down 60 GPPs per turn with an 83% chance for a GS.

Right. That is why it's priority for me, over construction.

I always struggle with this one. The choice is Academy or ice 'em for Paper/Education push towards Liberalism. I hear the arguement that the Acadmey is an extra GS source and helps overcome the NE GA points, but in reality it only helps increase the odds of a GS by a few percentage points.

I've never heard of this.
AFAIK academies don't give GPPs and aren't considered a source of GS.

Still, as a Philosophical leader I think you are probably right about building an Academy. Even with an aggressive beeline towards Philosophy after Literature you should have enough time to pop a GS in your second city (the first presumably working Hammer tiles instead of GSs to get the GL up faster) before you finish CoL/Drama. Just make sure you are running two Scientists the whole time, and you'll get it in around 20 turns after the first.

If we avoid fishing, here is what we could have:
Writing / have it
Mathematics/ have it
Scientific Method / no printed press
Physics / no scimet
Education / no paper
Printing Press /no paper
Fiber Optics /
Computers /
The Wheel /have it
Philosophy / no code of laws
Chemistry / no gunpowder
Fission / well, not likely
Fusion / well, not likely
Optics / no compass
Paper / no Civil Service, noTheology
Astronomy / no optics
Biology / no scimet
Electricity / shall I explain?
Flight / shall I explain?
Genetics / shall I explain?
Compass / no sailing
Satellites / shall I explain?
Sailing/ no fishing
Alphabet / have it
Calendar / no sailing
Medicine / shall I explain?
Ecology / shall I explain?
Iron Working / have it
Metal Casting : tadam!
Engineering
Steam Power
Liberalism
Agriculture
Masonry


Of course, having fishing is the end of the dream. Next time maybe

 

[Kemal]

Interesting game and discussion, with a lot of attention on what is too risky or not on high difficulty. Thanks for the writeup guys.

One thing I'd like to ask though... in the screenshots by Aelf, when founding the 2nd city near the copper.. do I see correctly that this settler has moved towards this spot totally unescorted through the FOW and settled in place without any defenders nearby (considering immortal level barbs), even though the date was around 2000 BC already?

How do you regular immortal players feel about the risks of such a move early in the game? I assume losing that settler/city would have been game over immediately... I usually take with me an escort for settlers but maybe I should revise my tactics?

 

[cabert]

One thing I'd like to ask though... in the screenshots by Aelf, when founding the 2nd city near the copper.. do I see correctly that this settler has moved towards this spot totally unescorted through the FOW and settled in place without any defenders nearby (considering immortal level barbs), even though the date was around 2000 BC already?

seems unlikely
I suppose there is a unit "under" the settler
Not seeing it doesn't mean there is none.

How do you regular immortal players feel about the risks of such a move early in the game? I assume losing that settler/city would have been game over immediately... I usually take with me an escort for settlers but maybe I should revise my tactics?

escort is unnecessary, fogbusting is better IMHO (more so if you settle along the coast: one less direction to fogbust). At immortal level, barbs pop a lot. Moving an unescorted settler in the fow is suicide.

 

[lilnev]

You won't be able to trade Alph+Lit because Alph is a prereq for lit.

I knew that. Really, I did.

I checked the leader spreadsheet. None of these folks have any inclination towards science or culture. That means they'll probably ignore Alphabet, Lit, Music, etc. for a good long while. Of course there's always the other continent, and I still advocate going straight to Lit. The GL will help so much, both with straight research and generating GSs. With a Philosophical leader, I generally use the first GS for an Academy, and almost certainly if I get (or anticipate getting) the GL.

peace,
lilnev

 

[darrelljs]

This is so very unlikely that I really wouldn't count on it. The only way to grab this GA is to spend a GA for lightbulbing it .

Hmm...I've gotten to Music first on Immortal on this exact line, but you are right that some of the seminal techs are too widely known to risk it.

I've never heard of this.
AFAIK academies don't give GPPs and aren't considered a source of GS.

If memory serves, they do at a whopping one per turn. Memory doesn't serves as reliably as it used to, though .

Darrell

 

[Kemal]

seems unlikely
I suppose there is a unit "under" the settler
Not seeing it doesn't mean there is none.

Well, in this case my question came from the fact that I only see the settler icon in the bottom of the screen, where the other unit's icon would have been had a unit been under it.

escort is unnecessary, fogbusting is better IMHO (more so if you settle along the coast: one less direction to fogbust). At immortal level, barbs pop a lot. Moving an unescorted settler in the fow is suicide.

Agreed, though I usually have only 3 warriors out once I get my 1st settler, one exploring, one doing MP in the cap, and one fogbusting/protecting/escorting city site 2.

 

[cabert]

Well, in this case my question came from the fact that I only see the settler icon in the bottom of the screen, where the other unit's icon would have been had a unit been under it.

AFAIK, when you select one unit, you have no icon for the other units. Except of course if you mouse over the stack.

But I should let Aelf explain it. He at least knows what he did .

Agreed, though I usually have only 3 warriors out once I get my 1st settler, one exploring, one doing MP in the cap, and one fogbusting/protecting/escorting city site 2.

I often only have 2 warriors + 1 worker. You don't need MP in the capital at this point.

 

[Giaur]

I would go for Polytheism first, Then Literature and only then I would exchange Alpha for IW and Mathematics.

In Hamburg I would construct Buddist Monastery. I do not remember If you have Meditation. But you will have to research it anyway (on way to Philo).

You need one cottage city that's certain. My vote goes for Berlin. I would chopped GL and I would construct Academy there. I know that my idea is weird. It is a kind of compromise. If you put there NE, you will suffer loss of GP, but belive me after Liberalism you may be sick of Great Scientists. Too many Great People from one city is bad idea. You will need Great Merchant one day and you will assume that there is no chance that any city other than capital would provide you with GP. Besides city with Academy should be commerce city, cause it's more profitable.

Hard task stands before you. Farm economy means large cities, but you have few luxury resources. I guess conquest will solve this problem.

I guess whipping is opposite to specialists. So few whipping this time.

Good luck.

edit: Sometimes NE should be built in city which produce wonders, not neccesarily in city with specialists. Maybe city where IronWorks one day is to be built.

 

[aelf]

One thing I'd like to ask though... in the screenshots by Aelf, when founding the 2nd city near the copper.. do I see correctly that this settler has moved towards this spot totally unescorted through the FOW and settled in place without any defenders nearby (considering immortal level barbs), even though the date was around 2000 BC already?

Visibility from our capital's border helped me see that the coast was clear before moving out. Anyway, settlers have two moves, so it's not difficult to run away from barbs, if any. And where Hamburg was settled was very near a fogbusting warrior.

Anyway, I'm quite surprised by most people's recommendations so far. Unless Isabella is close to getting Feudalism anyway (which might not be the case, since I just checked and she's still under Despotism), they are contrary to what my own calculations tell me. So do I follow, or do I gamble?

 

[cabert]

Visibility from our capital's border helped me see that the coast was clear before moving out. Anyway, settlers have two moves, so it's not difficult to run away from barbs, if any. And where Hamburg was settled was very near a fogbusting warrior.

Anyway, I'm quite surprised by most people's recommendations so far. Unless Isabella is close to getting Feudalism anyway (which might not be the case, since I just checked and she's still under Despotism), they are contrary to what my own calculations tell me. So do I follow or do I gamble?

If Isabella has the choice between a religious tech and monarchy, she will choose the religious tech. So it's very likely that she chose theology or something from the oracle.
So if you go for her, you'll get her. My point was more like this :
- if you go for her later, you still get her
- if you don't go for the Great Library, you won't get it

 

[Giaur]

You have Marble. It's a mistake not to build one wonder. GL will cost 360/30/2=6 forests. It's not a tragedy. You will have time to chop other forests too. Maybe you should build 2 more workers.

I would go for construction on my own. After Literature.

edit: And waiting with selling Alpha till the moment when Literature is known, will stop Isa for a while ...

 

[aelf]

My point was more like this :
- if you go for her later, you still get her
- if you don't go for the Great Library, you won't get it

Actually, I think it's the opposite. If we don't go for her soon, we might not get her (thanks to longbows). With marble and pre-chopping done, we should still be able to get the GL after Construction. Somebody has mentioned that the AIs on this map do not go for Alphabet early, so that is another indication that this gamble might work.