Settling Mod-User disputes in the Demogame

The demogame takes a bit more personal angle, in my opinion, and with the mods participating in the game, I think there needs to be some rules. (personally, I'm not in favor of having active players (holding a posistion during the current, or prior term) be immediately made a mod. Just look at the Shaitan-Donsig example. ). Just to prevent this from happening again (as this game can get personal on some issues), this is what I propose:

Point 1:

1. Mods should act as referees of the game only.

2. All disputes should be taken to email/pm as if both parties were normal users of the forums. Any sense of modship should be dropped in pm, and if disputes continues, the mod and/or user can inform TF.

3. Any action should be agreed upon by all 3 mods. Hopefully, this will stem any personal issues anyone has.

4. Any permenate actions should be discussed between the mods, TF, and the users of this forum. Thus, the PIs.

5. Demogame Mods must also follow the game rules, which means no permenant moderator actions unless a PI finds one is nessecary.

Point 2:

1. Any disputes that have gotten out of hand (needs to defrentiate between heated debate and chaos, though) should be handled by the closure of the forum, with a message to all parties involved. Banning/deleting/editing of posts should not even be considered.

2. If the mod is allowed to participate in the game, all modship powers stop at that posistion, and does not continue. Say a mod was having a dispute in their thread with another user. They can not go editing the posts, but must allow another mod to do so. Editing/deleting posts would show partiallity. (even closing the thread/banning the user). This goes along with the mods only enforcing the rules of the forum, and not the rules of the game.

Just to clarify why I don't like active players (within the last two turns) as mods is that it will provide a cool-down period for any prior disputes. Like Duke said, mods should just enforce forum rules, not game rules. There's another point to consider. The title of this game, afterall, is Game of Democracy. There's going to be arguments, tempers will flair. The last thing we want is a trigger-happy mod.

There is some good common sense up there but overall it would never work. Taken as a whole it would effectively unmod the mods and make this forum a self regulated city state in Civfanatics. That's not going to work. TF is also not going to debate things, that's why he makes mods.

More later perhaps...I haven't had my coffee yet.

This forum will be closing soon. Do you want to move this to the G2 citizen forum?

EDIT: Never mind. Just saw your post in "needed stuff". Thread moved.

Maybe we need to get a 2/3 approval of the mods and no discussion with TF for this proposal to work?

To be honest, I am getting pretty sick of this discussion. If you feel you have been dealt with unfairly by a moderator you contact the other mod(s) or TF. Sorry, I haven't had my coffee either.

Originally posted by eyrei
To be honest, I am getting pretty sick of this discussion. If you feel you have been dealt with unfairly by a moderator you contact the other mod(s) or TF. Sorry, I haven't had my coffee either.

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No kidding, I'm with you eyrei.

While I am against having moderators actively involved in the game for a number of the same reasons as Chieftess, after the recent info-poll on the subject I have resigned myself to the fact that my view on the matter is unlikely to prevail due to the large majority in favour of limited mod participation. I am therefore now more interested in finding ways to make mod involvement as painless as possible.
Rather than imposing unenforcable sets of rules upon them, I think the best thing we can do is to ask them to practice restraint, to be very aware of which ruleset, forum or demogame, the issues they deal with come under and to use their moderator powers only in the former case. To make this easier for them I would also ask the citizenry not to PM moderators regarding perceived violations of the demogame rules, but to PM either the individual concerned or a member of the Judiciary. If the member of the judiciary happens to be a mod then I would hope he or she would be able to judge which kind of action is appropriate.

@Eklektikos - Excellent points. The Judiciary is the place to go with game violations.

I agree with Eklektikos' points as well. I thought this was already resolved? Why are we having this discussion again? Shaitan and I will enforce Civfanatics rules, but the citizenry will enforce demogame rules.

Now, if a mod does not agree to sticky a thread you want stickied, which is what I think this thread is actually about, then feel free to start a discussion or informational poll on the subject of that thread. Do not start another one of these 'mod-whining' threads, please.

Originally posted by Shaitan
@Eklektikos - Excellent points. The Judiciary is the place to go with game violations.

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I agree. I also am of the opinion that mods should not be active but they will be so let's play. I'm actually glad that Shaitan and eyrei will be playing as I value the contributions both have made in the demo games. I think as long as the mods only enforce forum rules and not demo game rules then things should be fine. I'm sure we'll have some spats now and then but what else is new?

Are you running for president again Chieftess? If you are you have my support. Your initial post in this thread is great and an example of why you are a good leader for us all!

Eyrei, this isn't about the sticky issue at all...

Originally posted by Chieftess
Eyrei, this isn't about the sticky issue at all...

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Definitely not. We've got that in open discussion right now.

And the other reason it's reopened is that I'm such a lousy arguer (if there's such a word). It can take me days, even weeks (or longer - like years ) at times to come up with some good points for or against an idea.

Originally posted by Chieftess
Eyrei, this isn't about the sticky issue at all...

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I apologize then. However, I take offense to the opening of this thread, as it assumes future wrongdoing on the part of Shaitan and I. It also ignores the fact that most citizens have no problem with mods holding judicial positions, without any special stipulations. Those few who disagree are going to have to learn to live with it until such a time as they can get the majority of the citizens to agree with their point of view. Obviously, to do this, you must post your opinion occasionally, but I expect that there be a concrete reason to do so. So, if there is not particular reason this thread was opened, I think it should be closed.

I don't have a problem with mods holding judicial posistions.

@Eklektikos - Excellent points. The Judiciary is the place to go with game violations.

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Unless the Judiciary and mods are one Seriously, I was following everything nicely. My opinions on the matter have been stated - and I assume everyone remembers my posts

Originally posted by eyrei

So, if there is not particular reason this thread was opened, I think it should be closed.

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Until here. I hope you were joking, Eyrei, considering the content of this thread. This thread has a lot of relevance for the game. Chieftess came up with a proposal and we should welcome her input.

Game #1 went with little mod interference and few threats on thread closing. What here violates forum rules? I think mods should be very careful about acting as mods and really reserve their powers for blatant violations.

Originally posted by Chieftess
I don't have a problem with mods holding judicial posistions.

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But you do want to impose defined limits on what a mod is allowed to do if they hold one of these positions. I am saying, leave it alone until it actually becomes a problem ( which I am almost certain it will not), at which point, it can already be dealt with by contacting the other mods.

Originally posted by chiefpaco


Unless the Judiciary and mods are one Seriously, I was following everything nicely. My opinions on the matter have been stated - and I assume everyone remembers my posts



Until here. I hope you were joking, Eyrei, considering the content of this thread. This thread has a lot of relevance for the game. Chieftess came up with a proposal and we should welcome her input.

Game #1 went with little mod interference and few threats on thread closing. What here violates forum rules? I think mods should be very careful about acting as mods and really reserve their powers for blatant violations.

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No. I was not joking. This topic was already discussed for a week or more.

Technically, I believe threads devoted to the powers of mods and complaints against mods are supposed to be confined to the site feedback forum. I didn't mind having this discussion once, but it is getting very old. If there is a problem that arises, it should be reopened, but until then it should be laid to rest.

I think it is impossible and inappropriate for we users to dictate to the Moderators when or where they can take action as a moderator.

So, while I can understand what CT is getting at, I think that it is not going to work, some of those steps infringe upon Mod duties. While we are a democracy, we are one that exists at the pleasure of TF on these forums, and his rules as applied via DoM, Shaitan, and eyrei override all.

I know that you all understand that, but I state it again to make a point. That being comments related to, "take it to the Judiciary".

If it is a dispute purely game related, involving interpretation of a law or standard, or in the matter of violations of same via public investigation, then please do take it to the judiciary.

However, if it is a dispute with a mod, a disagreement of opinions, or non-rules related conflicts. Please DO NOT take it to the Judiciary. Those are issues citizens can work out themselves.

Finally, I welcome the presence of eyrei and Shaitan as citizens, and I know that overtime they will get used to the impact their comments and actions will have just because they have the golden gavel in their back pocket. I hope that any mod disputes in the future (and I am not saying this thread is one of those) will be taken to the Site Feedback forum.

Bill

Well said, Bill_in_PDX.