RBC3b - Ancient Mediterranean Mayhem - Persia

RBC3B - Ancient Mediterranean Mayhem - Persians

This game is one of four running on the Rise of Rome Conquest,
seeking to experience each of the four playable civs and to
compare their different situations.

Scenario: Rise of Rome Civ: Persians
Difficulty: Deity Goal: Domination Victory before 130 turns

Roster
------
Charis
Rubberjello
hotrod0823
Sir Bugsy
gormdragan

All exploits listed at RBCiv are off-limits
10 turns per player at all times
24/48 rule is in effect for "got it" message/playing turns
Players may read other RBC3 threads on other civs

Starting position:


A few items of interest are shown with white or red lines/circles.

Units:
1 Settler, 9 Worker
9 Archer, 3 Horsemen
17 Spearmen, 4 Galley
1 Army (Darius!)
4 Immortals (woo!)

Cities and Resources:
16 cities, all size 3-5, 11 have rax (not capital?!)
Greece has 15, size 2-5.
3 iron, 1 horse, 2 lux. Shields run from 1-11 per city, total ~72

Tech and Winning Conditions:
The tech tree is rather different, so take a look at it. With only 130 turns
max in the game, unless the other civs are research hounds, we won't see many
new ones. We're in an Oligarchy gov, one tech from Monarchy. More important
we're two techs from "Heavy Cav" which are a sweet 5 attack 2 speed. I would
think we head there. (Philosophy first for free tech would be an alternative)
The objective is 20% of area and 50% of population for a modified domination
victory. Winning the war with Greece and taking all their land is a virtual
must. I think we have a Barb tribe nearby too?
Egypt with its large area, good food and small size will make for a
tasty morsel at some point.
Startup pre-game:
- At 40 turns min, I find a very corrupt city and make one scientist.
- Any city with no barracks starts one, then if no spearman, starts one
- The city orders, squares worked, absurd deficit, and clowns in the capital
are like inheritting a Succession game from an extreme newbie

War Zone: :ripper:
There are four cities in "our" land in Asia Minor, and one
more beyond those is the gateway -- Byzantium. If we can take
and hold Byzantium the rest of Turkey will fall automatically.
Fail to hold it and we have a wide west front and trouble.
Three of our immortals are central/front, one is far-rear.
The settler is in our capital -- there is a decent island
near us which is empty and we have a boat near (Crete).
There's a larger and nicer island near Greece, that's Cyprus.

Darius army is in Melitene, which is about nine turns from
Byzantium. "Compared to Macedon our army is weak."
Egypt has just 5 cities, and we're "strong" compared to them.

Near the front in Asia Minor, discounting 1 spear to stay in
each town, we have spare: 4 archers, 1 spear, 2 immortal.
Adding in the next six cities after that, spare are:
5 archers, 2 spear, 3 immortal, 3 horse.

Plan, unless other input suggests differently: gather up a force
together near Byzantium, and capture that city, which will split
the Macedonian empire in two. Build an immortal army to do this.
Hold Byzantium, then capture the other cities in Asia Minor.
In the north consolidate and build up a fresh offensive force,
and in the south, roll over Egypt with some immortals. (If this
seems approprate at the time, but chances are equally good that
a second front would be bad - it depends how aggressive Macedon is)

Questions: do we want to build settlers and explore/settle more land? When?
Should we even pull some spears from the 'central'-back locations to get a
greater concentration of power for the battle of Byzantium? Do we enter any
alliance against Greece? If we ally with Rome does Carthage go to war with us?
(Do we care?) Vice versa? The only civ who could actually do something to them
in the near future is Rome. Do we try to trade around?

Not that it should matter, but here is the starting game file

I'll be playing the first turn today, so speak up soon if you have any thoughts...


Charis

Sounds like a good plan there. Here are my notes (which are pretty similar to the above, sorry for the repeats)

Well, at first I dispaired when I found our Capital was in the far corner, but it seems corruption factor is not as horrendous as I feared. I think we still need to establish a bunch of cities in a "slightly" tight build near our capitol and on up the Tigris/Euphrates valleys to be our productive core throughout the game. 2 Cities should turn into settler farms, and another one (probably 2) into worker farm(s).

I vote ignoring Egypt for now, but the plan of eliminating the Macedonians from Turkey should go full throttle. Defending Byzantine from the Macedonian core (after the initial victory) *might* be a bloodbath because we don't have catapults to help out defensively. If archers have the "defensive bombard" capability, that will help matters immensely, and they should be up there in good quantities.

After the initial push, maybe take a breather and concentrate on getting our core up to snuff?

As per usual, ignore Wonder builds and let the AI's build them for us?

Rome is up Mathematics on us. Maybe if we research Monarchy, that would be the best bet for a monopoly?

It looks like we don't have to worry about Barbs too much - They are all in Europe? Maybe that is a bad assumption.

A shot of the tech tree. (Note...only one page!)

Everything sounds good! Just a couple additional things I noted when reading through the civilopedia and trying out the game a bit as our civ just to look around.

* Movement on Roads is 1/4 not 1/3 so you can move 4 tiles on roads. Horsemen can move 8

* Republic is required for a Forbidden Palace and should be a priority to get our lands a bit more balanced as far as corruption.

* I also like Philosophy just for the free tech and have in a funky wonder that acts like Bach's. NOT that I am advocating any wonders just thought that was cool. I found it funny that the AI is jumping on every wonder under the sun. Don't they know there is a war on.

* The B-line for Heavy Cavs is clear given the attack strength and the fast movement along roads.

* Trading our excess Lux (dyes) and maybe even our extra iron will bring in some extra cash. NOT to even mention stripping a worker from Rome, Carthage or Egypt. WE NEED MANY MANY more. That many cities and only 9 workers . Not too mention the complete lack of roads on tiles that were irrigated.

Okay looks like I have said too much without really saying much of anything. Looking forward to playing soon.

Hotrod

RJ: Are you the Carthaginians?
Charis: Bugger off!
RJ: What?
Charis: Carthaginians! We're The Persians! Carthaginians, God!
Sir Bugsy: Blighters...
RJ: Can I...join your group?
Charis: No, piss off!
RJ: I want to join! I hate the Romans as much as anybody!
All in team except RJ: Ssch! Ssch! Ssch! Ssch! Ssch!
RJ: Oh.
Hotrod: Are you sure?
RJ: Oh, dead sure. I hate the Romans already.
Charis: Listen! If you wanted to join the Persians, you'd have to have really hate the Romans.
RJ: I do!
Charis: Oh, yeah, how much?
RJ: A lot!
Charis: Right, you're in. Listen, the only people we hate more than the Romans, are the freakin’ Carthaginians!
All in team except RJ: Yeah!
Hotrod: Splitters!
Sir Bugsy: And the Macedonians!
All in team except RJ: Yeah! Splitters!
Gormdragan: And the Persians!
All in team except RJ: Yeah! Splitters!
Charis: What?
Gormdragan: The Persians. Splitters!
Charis: We are the Persians!
Gormdragan: Oh. I thought we were the Egyptians?
Charis: Persians! God...
Sir Bugsy: Whatever happened to the Egyptians, Charis?
Charis: They’re over there. (points to the West)
All in team except RJ: Splitter!
Charis: Peace, brother! Haha! What's your name?
RJ: RJ. RJ...Rubberjello.
Gormdragan: Rubberjello? What kind of a name that?
*A moment of embarrassed silence amongst the group as they all look around*
All: Right. Moving on.
Charis: We may have a little job for you, RJ.
***Whispering***
RJ: Er…Charis? Why are we killing the Macedonians? I thought we were killing the Romans? I mean they don’t even have the game yet!
Charis: Exactly. Kick ‘em while they're down, says us!

It's a bit quiet in these here parts isn't it ?

I ofcourse have a quiet night but will be up in like 4 games tomorrow

Here we go...

Thanks to hotrod and Rubberjello for their input, especially pointing out that roads are 1/4.

[0] 350 BC - As mentioned, most cities orders are changed. Research is tactics
toward hvy cavs the next tech

Our settler heads West of Susa for a double wheat river square.
Settler farm: Babylon and Karhai, Worker farm: Gazaca.

We leave only 8 spears in cities, mostly at borders, and send rest to 'front'
Rome gives best offer for our spare dyes. WM+worker+some gold. To Carthage
WM+3gpt+some gold for worker. Egypt lacks both iron and horses (muhaha)
and will sell worker+WM+12g for Iron+3gpt. That's it for main-civ worker buys.
She turns polite.

(IBT) Uh... brutal? Our archers in this scenario do *NOT* get a bombard ability,
so the two I put with two spears that I thought was a nice defensive stack to
cut of Byzantium is already in trouble. Two spears die and they only see two
horses retreat. Near Iconium a hoplite came out and attacked a spear-archer
on a hill... and lost, then sent another one and won?! Then a horse killed
the archer, and our front shock troops are... well, shocked.
Ok, time to smack myself. I looked up a few items in the civopedia, but not
enough -- hoplites are *3.3.1*.

[1] 345 BC - Near Byzantium we force a horse retreat, then kill one.
Outside Iconium our horse counterattack wins vs horse, and second wins.
Darius forms an army with two immortals, another on the way. (Now tis move 2)

(IBT) I was expecting more, but Macedon horse beat our horse, and two hoplites
beat two archers. An archer lost to our spear. Romans start Temple of Artemis.

[2] 340 BC - The Darius immortal army kills a horse and we enter our Golden Age,
timed to match that of Macedon. (An immortal within promotes to vet.) Up north,
we do kill one Hoplite with an archer, and the hurt spear pillages.

(IBT) Egypt and Carthage ally vs Rome. A Greek sword butchers our archer, but
they send a *1* hp hoplite vs our spear in the forest and they lose
That's it! No more counterattacks?!

[3] 335 BC - We found Pasargadae aka 'The Wheatlands'. Our capital was one shield
short of barracks putting out 17spt. Let's compete for the Temple of Artemis!?
For a domination victory, it's temple per city is big. (Had to read to confirm)
Just to keep Rome polite, we exchange RoP rights for 8g.

We get the Heroic Epic msg, which is just better chance for leaders.

(IBT) Macedon and Egypt sign an alliance vs Rome. Perfect! We get Rome in
vs Greece and don't have to ally to do it! Carthage starts the Colossus.
The scenario tactics continue to surprise me. They slip a hoplite BEHIND
our advancing stack of doom. They attack a galley with a galley, and win.
They also move *5* units toward Ancrya, rather than pull back to defense.
That's very interesting, as purely due to the road logistics, our Army
has ended up in the South of Eastern Asia Minor, poised to take a lower city
or two on the way up to Byzantium. Let's see if when he gets next to a city
they come back?

[4] 330 BC - We do pull back to Ancyra, and push forward the SOD (ie, Army of
3 immortals, 3 archers, 2 horse and a spear. The army makes use of it's free
pillage on the way down. We can't delay for the hoplite, and move forward.

(IBT) The Romans want an alliance vs Carthage. No thanks Caesar, not our war.
The Macedonians pull obliquely with their northern force, neither up nor back.
The hoplite moves erratically, and we see a settler pair float by.

[5] 325 BC - Two immortals, settler, worker and spear complete this round.
Our army pilages their iron, but they have about four more. The army kills a
top hoplite at Miletus, and two horses finish the second - we capture the city.
(Figures, since we're pillaging machines, that we capture)

(IBT) Carthage demands TM+30g??? Hmmm, there is truly zero chance of them
coming to get us, but do we want to lose them as trading partners? I think it
seems our lot is with Rome. If Carthage declares war, it will break their rep,
and we will likely enter an alliance with Rome. I refuse, they declare.

[6] 320 BC - Ok, Hannibul. We ally with Rome vs Carthage, getting contact with Celts
discounted to 11gpt. The Celts are backwards and we get their large WM for Masonry,
Alphabet and 1gpt. Now that we have crossed the Rubicon, so to speak, we let them
pull us into an alliance vs Macedons, and they pay US 92g
If Hannibal has *ANY* sense he would pay Egypt to ally against us.
Why let him do that? We pull Egypt into alliance vs Carthage, for contact with
Celts and 8gpt. It's tempting to sign her vs Greece too, but not for 15-20 gpt
and no 'real' help.

We found Tarsus on a river heading to the West of Hatra, near cattle.

(IBT) Wow, they ignore the fact our Army is about to sack Sardis, and run
past it to try to get back Miletus.

[7] 315 BC - We found Gordium, near cattle and horse, and on fresh water lake.
Our army chooses to go after his units, as Sardis attack would be across river.
OUCH!! We go into the red, 2hp, but beat a hoplite and a sword, then our horse
and archer beat two horses.

(IBT) Hoplite forces our horse to retreat, and a second kills it.

[8] 310 BC - Susa swaps to Oracle, or use for Heroic Epic, or something else.
Tyre completes one immortal, and we leave it around as it's our Egypt-border city.
Note - there's now a settler on goto-6 from Babylon to a spot at the Mouth of the
Tigris-Euphrates with Spices.

[9] 305 BC - Here come along the road some reinforcements toward Miletus.
Our army (and everything else) retreats to Miletus. I hope the new healing
is fast enough!! For first time, we must raise lux bar to 10%, as Susa and
Arbela would become unhappy.

(IBT) Two swords and a Hoplite move up, outside Miletus!
I see the hoplite-spear who went around us, have founded Corinth.

[10] 300 BC - Hatra spits out another settler, which heads for the 'blank spot'
near our core. There are a few good spots right near where he is which
would catch cattle and wheat. It's end of ten, but if the army gets unlucky
and dies I want it to be on my watch, not the next schmo! (Especially when
said leader hasn't been in an SG with me yet )

(IBT) A scary moment, our army absorbs blows from a Sword, then moves off top
to let a horse die, then a hoplite loses to an archer defender!

[11] 295 BC - The army half-heals, and kills a sword still on the hill.

(IBT) Athens completes the Oracle (darn, their GA is useful too)
Three hoplites attack immortals, and we win two and lose one. No more units
come at Sardis, in fact an archer retreats toward it.

[12] 290 BC - Just let the in-process moves go, didn't do anything else.
With Miletus safe, I can handoff now. (Would recommend do NOT move the army
this turn, let him stay and heal 6 more hp)

To next leader...
- There is an explorer horse near a brown city of Chertomylk (Scythians or Goths?)
He can be moved to make contact almost right away. (East of Sinope)
- Outside Ancyra are some spears and now immortals that were bracing for an attack
that never came. Move them west, or keep them for the assault on Byzantium later.
- There's a spear from Beirut on goto to vulnerable Iconium, as we just sent the
spear there to cover the two immortals just west along the road.
- If the thought of an Egyptian sneak attack scares you, ally with them vs Macedon.
- In our capital the Temple of Artemis is due in 17... cross your fingers
- We have top score, by quite a margin



Rubberjello <-- Up (take your full ten turns unless short on time)
hotrod0823 <-- On deck

Too bad the Byzantium cut-off didn't work, but 3-attack hoplites threw a wrench in that. We have no 'good' defenders. Pardon again the turn and a half over, but that happends sometimes to avoid a sloppy handoff.

RBC3b-Persians-290BC Save File

Good luck,
Charis

Very nice start! I like the looks of our much improved economy not to mention some new purple cities. This should be interesting !

Got it. I really don't relish the thought of fighting the Macedonians during their Golden Age with 3.3.1 Hoplites. I'll test the waters for a few turns, but I would much rather see that might directed towards Rome instead of us! (That was a HUGE break, Egypt roping them in against Rome!)
Edit***
Nevermind. We have the alliances, so we'll stay the course.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice...diplomacy!"

No rush RJ:

Just came off a lot of warring in LK56 with little to show for it so take your time

Take a look around to see what is happening. I'm just a "schmo", so I don't dare Veto stamp a Charis decision , but I really question the wisdom of the Heroic Epic/Wonder pre-build in Susa? Shouldn't we be building something more productive during this time? Too late now though, with the number of shields invested.
We are at 10% Lux, and our lone Scientist is banished to Sinope with 28 turns to research Tactics (Or else 'off with his head!'). We are allied with Rome and Egypt against Carthage in a phony war. We are locked into a war against Greece. Egypt has learned Mathematics, so that drops the price somewhat. I want to get that, since Catapults will help us immensely in the non-mobile war against the Greeks.


Inherited turn: (1) (Movement left on units? If Lee were here he would slap your hand, Charis!) Note the new brown town to the North. A new Contact should be worth quite a bunch (I hope!) Can't get to it this turn though. I vote making Gazaca a 2 turn Worker town. Babylon and Hatra make a good Settler factories. We need another worker town, but we also need lots of military to fend off Greece (much less make headway). Bactra founded in our core. I AM a little worried about Egypt, so I bring them into an Alliance against Macedonia for only 15 gpt.

(IT) Lots of Macedonian movement, at least 7 Hoplites moving towards us! An immortal on a mountain successfully defends against a Sword attack. Egyptians start the Artemis Temple.

285 BC (2) The brown borders belong to the Scythians (fearsome horse archers if I remember my ancient history correctly?) Sell Masonry and Alphabet to them for Territory Map and 195 gold. Their territory extends quite close to the Macedonians, so I figure I won't keep their contact a secret as it will probably be blown before too long. Their World Map is exceedingly expensive, but it will be worth it. Trade Writing and 170 gold for their World Map. Their special unit appears to be the Scythian Rider (3-1-2 Keshik).
Trade Contact with Scythians and 435 gold to Egypt for Mathematics and World Map. Uh oh. Rome is up Currency and Construction now. It would bankrupt us to buy Currency, and Ceasar won't even talk about trading Construction. Trade him contact with Scythians for 235 gold and World Map. Trade same thing to Celts for 87 gold and their World map. I sell Macedonians and Carthaginian contacts to the Scythians. I didn't really want to, but the AI would have sold them to the in the next IT, so I might as well grab the 190 gold. Trade WM around for more gold. Open an embassy with the Scythians. They are in tribal council government and their Cap has no infrastructure, size 3, and building a settler. Open Embassy with Celts. They are also size 3, do have some infra, and are building archers. There is still one unmet civ. (Goths? located in Germany?)
I really don't want to hassle with the movement bonus of the Scythian Riders in case the Macedonians buy them into an alliance with us, so I do the deed first. Alliance against Macedonia for our extra Iron and 4 gpt. (They were about ready to hook up their own Iron)
Change 3 cities over to Catapult production. Wow! When do we discover bridges? A movement rate of 4 on roads is nice, but rivers stop your movement very abruptly.

(IT) More Macedonian movement. A stack of 3 Hoplites and a spear is heading East out of Sardis. A Macedonian Sword gets dropped off by a galley near the Egyptian border at Tyre. An Immortal fends off a Hoplite attack succesfully in central Turkey.

280 BC (3) Found Sidon and Samaria in our core fertile areas. Our Immortal barely beats the "marine" sword near Tyre. Lots of movement of our armies towards the war zone, but it is a long way!

(IT) A fortified spear fends off one attack by a Hoplite, but falls to the second. Lots of movement of Macdonian galleys. Carthage and Egypt sign Peace.

275 BC (4) Question for the group. Do we want the Heroic Epic or the Mauselium of Mausollos? Both are could be due in 3. The Wonder is not that great, and the Heroic Epic would actually give us a slightly more direct benefit. (Or just do both, with the wonder first?)

> Take a look around to see what is happening. I'm just
> a "schmo", so I don't dare Veto stamp a Charis decision



Oh my, ye have no idea how bad a shape several of our SG's would be in, had the next person not picked up the veto gavel!!


By all means, if anyone has what they feel is good reason, they should do so and explain why so we can learn. (BTW, 'schmo' was a generic term and I wasn't even looking at the list at the time I used it, rather it's what whoever it was would be called if he 'lost' the army on his watch )

> ... but I really question the wisdom of the Heroic Epic/Wonder
> pre-build in Susa? Shouldn't we be building something more
> productive during this time?

Ah, good question... allow me to explain. Looking at how poorly chosen the cities were for building wonders, if the AI civ choices were as bad, we stood a great chance at snagging a wonder or two. Artemis is just HUGE, and if we get this we're in super shape. In this game Zeus is Sun Tzu's and would also be a huge boost. The fact that it's a "same continent" item and that we're contiguous with all of Macedon make both these even better. At the time I started it, the Oracle looked like something we could get, which along with Artemis would have been huge as well. (Alas Greece chose a good city and beat us -- this too is where Deity build factor helps immensely) The Heroic Epic is available as a fallback to avoid an expensive aqueduct, and if it helps us get even one leader for our non-mil civ, a rushed FP perhaps in captured Greece would be of enormous benefit. So while there is risk involved, the possible benefit of any one of these far outweighs a handful of extra immortals, especially with the number of 'other' cities available for building, and with the GA behind us powering the wonder building.

In general, when I have a civ with this many cities, it's quite good imo to be building 1-2 building wonders.

The cats sound like a good idea, and a good turn for you so far!

> Inherited turn: (1) (Movement left on units? If Lee were here
> he would slap your hand, Charis!)

Welcome to Realms Beyond!!!
This is intentional, not an oversight. Any unit 'active' is one where the direction/choice should be up to the next leader, and there's just a few -- especially with settlers (note in RBC1 there would have been even worse backtracking if I had moved the settlers)
Any unit who is fortified with movement left, was my choice not to use - but it lets the next guy veto it instead of taking his choice away by hitting space on the unit. (Thanks for the tip though, I wouldn't have known otherwise to avoid that in an LK game )

> I vote making Gazaca a 2 turn Worker town. Babylon and Hatra > make a good Settler factories. We need another worker town,
Yes, a good idea. I've been working it's tiles to try to get it set up to the point of a 2-turn worker farm.

> I AM a little worried about Egypt, so I bring them into an
> Alliance against Macedonia for only 15 gpt. ...
> I really don't want to hassle with the movement bonus of the
> Scythian Riders in case the Macedonians buy them into an
> alliance with us, so I do the deed first. Alliance against
> Macedonia for our extra Iron and 4 gpt. (They were about
> ready to hook up their own Iron) <-- delightful!

I can sleep nights now!

> Wow! When do we discover bridges? A movement rate of 4 on
> roads is nice, but rivers stop your movement very abruptly.

No lie, this was BRUTAL to watch in practice.

> A Macedonian Sword gets dropped off by a galley near the
> Egyptian border at Tyre. An Immortal fends off a Hoplite attack
> succesfully in central Turkey.
> Immortal barely beats the "marine" sword near Tyre.

Wow, the AI is pulling some real stunts this game!! At the time I thought it was foolish to leave an immortal back there when
we need them badly at the front, but good thing

> Do we want the Heroic Epic or the Mauselium of Mausollos?
> Both are could be due in 3

In this scenario that's one of the most useless wonders around, and I'm hoping for a GL-rushed FP, so I would vote Epic. (Can we buy the tech to shift to Zeus? Do we have Ivory?)

So far so good, keep it up
Charis

Looking good on all fronts. I can't see the why we would want mauseium so I would take the HE. Armies and a GL rushed FP is the way to go. We HAVE to remember that eventhough we are over the number of cities for the FP Republic is REQUIRED to get it.

Did I read that right?? Swords have amphibious assult!

Hotrod

Originally posted by hotrod0823
Did I read that right?? Swords have amphibious assult!Hotrod

Click to expand...

NO! That was just kind of weak joke. That sword traveled a long way on a galley to get there, so I was refering to their "sea" legs.

I was casting doubt on the H.E. because, well, quite frankly the chance of us getting a Leader from fighting tons of 3.3.1 Hoplites are exceedingly small. It will improve once we get Cats up there to knock off a few health before our Immortals attack, so that might coincident if we build the useless wonder first and THEN start and finish the H.E. (The Macedonian war is going to be LONG, trust me! )

I have a settler on the way to suck in both Silks and Ivory, but it would take 10+ turns to hook up the city and the Ivory to our road network.

I must be blind. I can't find the Statue of Zeus on the Tech tree at all???

There IS a nice, super-powered JS Bach Wonder (The Baccanalia) that comes with Philosophy. (3 content citizens in EVERY city) that may be worth considering.
P.S. I was kinda pulling your leg with the schmo comment, Charis. I knew what you were saying there.

IT Rome sign in the Celts against Carthage. Carthage starts on the Artemis temple. Immortal successfully defends against an archer attack.

270 BC (5) Our army approaching Sardis sees a group of *9* Hoplites heading for the interior of Turkey. We don't have many forces there! Divert some of the reinforcement chain northward. What the ??? Egypt suddenly knows Currency and Tactics? I check with Carthage. They know Currency, Monarchy, Construction, and Tactics. I would love to make peace with Carthage because that war is really cramping our Trading opportunities, but I don't want to ruin our Rep because we have an alliance with Rome against them. I decide to wait on trades to see if any 2-fers become available if/when the Celts or Scythians get some of those techs. I turn the army around back to Miletus because some Hoplites are circling back through the mountains in the East. Sink a Macedonian Galley.

IT This is ridiculous. I see at least 5-6 Hoplites coming down past Byzantium every turn! They are like roaches! They are chasing after our Immortals like wolves after lambs. We can only hope to defend what we have, IMO. Romans start Hadrian's wall. 11 Hoplites and 2 swords start towards us at Miletus.

265 BC (6) Buy a worker from Scythia. Trade WM around. Prepare to defend Miltetus while a secondary force of Immortals and catapults are forming in the interior.

IT A bunch of wonder building messages. Just about everybody is building every wonder. The Hoplites near Miletus suddenly take off towards our force in the interior.

260 BC (7) Finish Heroic Epic. Trade WM around. I blow our kingdom's savings and end up getting Construction, Currency, and Tactics this turn. What is really strange is that the Celts and Scythians show that they either instantaneously have it when my deals are complete, or else they can never learn it? Perhaps non-playable factions are following a limited tech tree? In that case we are screwed as our trading opportunities are extremely limited. Our research is switched to 40 turns on Military Training. Rome is up Engineering.

IT Macedonians start Great Library (They know Literature). Rome Completes Artemis Temple! We had 9 turns to go.

255 BC (8) Persepolis switches to Hadrian's Wall with no loss in shields. I'm open to suggestions here. As soon as our army leaves Miletus, 10-13 Hoplites suddenly start converging on the city. If I leave the army there, then the Hoplites start converging on Iconium where we are staging a large Catapult and Immortal stack. The Goths have announced themselves to the world mid-turn, and there are no deals to be struck. I do make a killing selling their WM around.

IT A Greek galley sinks one of ours (fortunately empty.) Macedonia completes Great Library (Scientific Leader rush?) Carthaginia completes Colossus. There is a major cascade.

250 BC (9) Hamadan founded. Ergili founded in poor spot, but immediately pulls in Incense. Kill off two wandering Hoplites in Central Turkey.

IT Macedonians move to emperil Iconium.

245 BC (10) I fat-fingered the move of a settler to off the road network. He can go wherever the next leader wishes. I left the movement of all units around Iconium unmoved. The next leader can determine whether we can fight or flight. There 14 Hoplites around the town, and it is defended by 5 Immortals, 5 Catapults, and 1 spear (and walls). 2 More catapults can be moved into the town this turn.

I personally think it is too soon to claim the Hoplites are unbalancing in this scenario, but it sure does look like it at this time! Why did they get such a huge boost and the Immortals did not? (And I'm really beginning to hate locked wars.)

The Save (245 BC)

<delurk> You might want to check out the Macedon thread of this SG as well, to see how many Hoplites they started with. They had some huge advantages in initial troops. You playing on a high difficulty level is not helping either.

Also, in whatever deity game would you expect to be successful at early warfare ?

Happy slugging.
Grimjack

Sorry, I haven't shown my ugly mug yet. The game just showed up at my desk. It looks like I need to do a lot of reading before I jump too far into the discussion.

This scenario seems to be throwing us curves left and right with some very interesting tactics by the AI.

My initial inclination was to move all our forces to the front as Charis did. However, the AI are not always using conventional tactics.

I haven't checked the save yet, but is there a chance the Macedonians could initiate a flanking manuever around the Black Sea and into our back yard? Or will our MA with the Scythians prevent such a thing.

It sounds like we will be reacting to the Macedonians until we can get heavy cav.

Woohoo, the game is afoot!!
Looks like you did well against some crushing opposition RJ

I'm actually delighted to see the AI is not going to roll over, and yes, they're definitely doing some things 'different' and unexpected this game. Imagine a minute things from the Greeks' point of view - they have NO other place to expand then at us, and would like to pour troops into Turkey and go on the offense. With our best defense a 1.2.1 spear, they would do quite well with this approach. Instead, they've sustained heavier losses than we have, and have lost a city while putting no pressure on us.

Now I obviously don't know the scenario well, but if there's truly a sustainable 6 hoplite per turn stream of units, it really doesn't matter, Turkey is about to turn green, and that would have to be part of the scenario design, with Persia like Carthage needing to counterattack when their initially-stronger foes have become gassed and/or when the right techs come along.

When I get a chance after the game one of the first things I will try doing is to take a different path for the army and do a 100% beeline for Byzantium or the hill just past the chokepoint and interdict these units coming in (rather than trying a South-North-back-East loop as we tried).

My own thoughts, and it's based on my turn and on experience, not on the current (rough sounding) situation, is that we need to be more offensive than defensive. We want 4 on 3, not 2 defending 3. If our immortals are used on defense then Macedon has already won. These individual cities like Miletus are not as important as keeping them from attacking OUR poorly defended cities and keeping a solid kill ratio so we gas them. The army is our trump card too -- I rather hope we don't see a Hoplite army for a showdown! If it's a choice between a defensive battle where we have no terrain or good-defender bonus, I would scoot for the mountains to get the best bonus we can, across a river if possible, and manuever to take our attacks on them on plain ground. Rubberjello's thought for some catapult/siege engine support is good (*as long as* we have a defensible position and didn't end up giving them away to capture)

Rome got Artemis?! Ah SHOOT! Chalk that one up to deity bonus, otherwise a nice try. Also, regarding lack of trading opportunities, I would *FAR* rather keep a neighbor out of a war with me, and increase weariness for Macedon (if their government feels that, maybe not), than to garner a few gold in trade. With Rome as our good buddy and a tech leader, I'm not worried, nor am I looking to sell around tech for better units that will end up in enemy hands. As far as our research, I guarantee the AI (Rome in particular) will have Mil Training for Heavy Cav long before the 40 turns -- if you're going to run min sci, you basically never pick to research a tech you WANT when it becomes available. Min sci is better run on alternate techs in hopes the AI doesn't go there and you get a monopoly to sell.

Again, if Macedon overwhelms us right now, fear not -- we're not doing anything wrong and it would be due to design. In fact, looking at the other threads it's funny how EACH of us thinks of ourselves as under-the-gun in a big way. Keep up the offense, which is our strength, keep up the dogpile, which is Macedon's downfall, and use your noodle on terrain and picking the location of the battle, which is the path to victory for human players.

Good luck to our next leaders!!
Charis

I saw a Macedonian Horseman army to the north of our Immortal army.

I'm also inclined to give up Iconium and make our stand on a mountain further back somewhere. We'll be OK if the AI straggles in attackers at us. But stacks of 15 plus Hoplites is just impossible to stop at this point. (Is this tactics the AI improvement?) They aren't being stupid about it either - the stacks are sticking to the hills and mountains once they are in our territory.

I suppose I *could* have kept them in an endless loop, by moving our army out of Miletus and back again the next turn. They reacted to that by backtracking. But that seemed a little exploitive to me.

Attacking vs defending sounds good in theory, but with large stacks the problem with attacking is that you are sitting in front of a still-large stack on their next turn.

Plus I see that the other threads expect a slow tech race. PHAW! This tech race is fast so far! (Probably due to all these golden ages floating around.)

I've been looking at the save. Here's a screenshot for lurkers.



So the question would be - where are all those Greeks headed?

If they continue east we want to get them out on the flatlands NW of Antioch. Making a stand at the river maybe a good battlefield. We'll need to keep them out of the mountains to the north.

Of course, you can throw that all away if they attack Iconium.

They will attack Iconium. (I'm 90% sure) Those Hoplites go after our poor Immortals like Modern Armor after horsemen. That 3 to 2 attack to defense ratio is very attractive to the AI and makes them very aggressive.