Is Great Library Rush Worth It?

On the surface this may seem like a easy question, but Im beginning to think that a GL rush might not be worth it. On <emperor/multilayer games I can usually get the GL but on >emperor games the AI always grabs it first so I don't try. In the second case I find that by turn 38-42(when i would have completed the GL) I have a larger pop, more hammers per turn, more units(especially workers), and more gold per turn. I feel that these improvements outweigh the free tech and the +3 beakers are countered by the larger pop. This has lead me to believe, unless you are playing Babylon or Korea, in which case the early GS point is worth more than 185 hammers, the GL rush is very overrated.

Not worth it. At all. I just tried three games trying to rush, and I was so far behind in everything else if I did get it...

In my experience it's worth it only if I start with a very strong production in my capital, with a civ that is suited towards the Liberty tree (so I can get a worker culturally instead of through hammers) with a lux I can work on with minimal teching (ideally salt), and a clear idea of how and why I want to slingshot to something.

So with, say, Russia or Carthage or some others it can be worth it, for sure, but for most civs you're probably better off just building the library and moving on.

The Great Library itself is awesome and even in its current form one of the best wonders in the game. The problem is that the higher you go in difficulty the more you have to sacrifice to actually build it, so on Emperor+ it's usually not worth it to do so anymore... and building it on Deity pretty much requires an insane start - and even then it's not a save bet.

No, building infrastructure is better. The opportunity cost of GL is very high. Making settlers and workers is much better than all the hammers used for any wonder at that time in the game.

If you need to stop growth of your capital to rush the GL it doesn't worth it. But in rare occasions you can grab it very fast and still have a juicy capital around 6-7 pop when finished. That way you can pump settlers and units fast enough to compensate.

Hilled start with at least 2 wheat/deer tiles enter this category.

I experimented a GL-NC start in 2 mp games so far. 1 peaceful and the other with a mighty Steel rush

Chichen Itza turn 59 for the peaceful game and Steel for the war game before the turn 60! Thanks GL but also thanks great land for making this possible

Great library rushes aren't all that really... unless your capital is in a coast and you get iron working from free technology and build Colossus. Tgl could also get you an early Parthenon by getting drama and poetry which is also not that exciting. .. there's also a good chance of failure to build tgl.

What about for culture victories? You do get a theming bonus from GWs of writing?

People who say "Build infrastructure, not the GL" seem to be forgetting that besides the free tech, the GL gives you a free library (a 75 production building). So rather than spend 75 production on a library, you can spend 185 production and take another 10 - 15 turns and get a free tech and +3 science out of the deal.

Not to mention a theming bonus by medieval era. But yes, I've found that if you need to divert tech to masonry or bronze working to get decent production in your cap it's not worth trying for GL.

I used to always rush the GL for the reasons outlined by InspCallahan. Now I prefer to get 2 settlers out quick smart. I find if I can found 2 more cities early on I have a good chance at getting an early Education, an early Scientific Theory, and an early Plastics...

When you succeed in building the GL and if you choose Philosophy as the free tech and immediately start a NC upon finishing GL, it puts you miles ahead. (This will initially put you behind in settlers, but in this case with NC usually followed by 2 or 3 settlers back to back you reach the 4 cities + NC benchmark faster)

However, it's being able to build it at all that is highly difficulty level dependent. Combined with fail gold not being worth it (if you are one hammer short, you don't even get enough cash to buy a regular library) you have to consider your difficulty level and starting location carefully.

On Immortal, without a mod it's almost impossible to beat the AI to GL; the AI starts with a worker, Pottery, Mining, along with another tech on this level. It's usually gone before turn 30, sometimes gone even before turn 25.

You have significantly more time on Emperor, where the AI doesn't have Mining nor the worker but still has Pottery and another tech and so GL will last longer, but you still need an excellent hammer start.

I think I saw a reference to a cultural victory, Globe Theater is much easier to get if you want theming from literature slots. In addition, conquering an AI's wonders with those slots will work almost as well as building it yourself if your not France.

Recently, I have found that the Temple of Artemis is a much better wonder. Over time, it will give you more science with more population. The 10% modifier is different apples to total food, not excess like everything else. Ranged units are superior, and it helps with that as well. So if you want to rush a wonder rush that. AI's also dont usually rush it.

I'm used to not building it anymore, so when I find that when I do build it, a lot of time I actually wished I'd have put out 1 or 2 archers and 1 more settler in the time it took me to rush the Great Library.

This one time, though, I had a godly Maya start and used the Great Library to leapfrogged my way to like a turn 60 Theology finish. I think that was like the earliest Theology I've ever gotten and net me like 2 extra Great People via Maya's Unique Ability.

You'll get that 2 gww of w slots from gl. . That's right. ..but if you're Assyria and the royal libraries with amphitheaters will give you more than enough space for gw of w.

jlim201 said:

Recently, I have found that the Temple of Artemis is a much better wonder. Over time, it will give you more science with more population. The 10% modifier is different apples to total food, not excess like everything else. Ranged units are superior, and it helps with that as well. So if you want to rush a wonder rush that. AI's also dont usually rush it.

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On Immortal, this tends to go slightly after GL, so you have sightly more time (and one less tech to research)

However, on Deity, the AI also starts with Archery and so in some games it actually finishes TOA 1 turn before another AI finishes GL.

InspCallahan said:

People who say "Build infrastructure, not the GL" seem to be forgetting that besides the free tech, the GL gives you a free library (a 75 production building). So rather than spend 75 production on a library, you can spend 185 production .

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You have to build the GL WAY before you would start building the Library though, so you can't really compare that 1:1. Even on Emporer you will have to build it before you can get all your settlers out, so not only your capital, but also at least one city will get behind drastically.

Ryika said:

You have to build the GL WAY before you would start building the Library though, so you can't really compare that 1:1. Even on Emporer you will have to build it before you can get all your settlers out, so not only your capital, but also at least one city will get behind drastically.

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The real milestone marker isn't either 4 cities founded or just NC completed but is instead having both no matter how many cities you have prior to NC and how many you waited to found until after it. GL makes the city portion fall way behind, but with it followed immediately by a 1 city NC (and being even further behind on city), the next two builds will be settlers back to back followed by escort and yet another settler to hit the 4 cities + NC complete marker significantly faster than in BNW having acquired the gold to cash rush the current last cities library to even start construction of the NC.

In addition, science is King in Civ V, if NOT building GL, you want a regular library hand built in your capital ASAP to produce a decent amount of science to start catching up with the AI handicap from starting techs. During those 7 to 10 turns you are building that library, the capital is likely to grow, making the escort + settler that follows faster.

The real risk on Emperor is that even started immediately the GL might fail one to three turns from completion which would put you extremely far behind.

Not rushing GL is not so bad. Falling behind in tech means you get to steal a tech later with a spy. Rushing Artemis, though, can make a lot of sense. You need archers. You get some hammers back, not just in archers, but from the early GE points. The food growth bonus translates into science growth, though the reward is much slower in coming. The downside, though, is that you can capture Artemis and it's almost as useful as if you built it, save for the GE points.

joncnunn said:

In addition, science is King in Civ V, if NOT building GL, you want a regular library hand built in your capital ASAP to produce a decent amount of science to start catching up with the AI handicap from starting techs. During those 7 to 10 turns you are building that library, the capital is likely to grow, making the escort + settler that follows faster.

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I guess that's two different ways of approaching it. I prefer to get my cities settled before I build the Library, so I don't have to repel the Settlers that other Civs send to take my city spots for too long. I'm doing fine with it - but that might just be me being lazy and ineffective. ^^