Liberty vs. Tradition - Deity Challenge

Acken said:
I got Edu on turn 105 with 8 cities most equipped with a workshop and an aqueduct and being size 4 to 10.
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That's interesting. I certainly support pre-Edu aqueducts in a science heavy Liberty game, but am less certain about Metal Casting / Workshops. I know the MP folks prefer that option, but that's for unit spam no?
 
Manpanzee said:
Not to derail this thread before it gets started, but I think that Korea may not be the best civ to examine this with. It's true that the per-specialist boost benefits empires with more specialist slots, but Korea doesn't have any infrastructure bonuses and is also an amazing Tradition civ. I think Liberty is more likely to be seriously competitive with civs that don't necessarily have great bonuses for Tradition. The main characteristic I would look for is some kind of per-city bonus that kicks in early and enables a quick faith- or gold-based snowball.

Civs that stand out as good candidates to me are Shoshone, Maya, Ethiopia, Celts, Egypt, Russia, China, Arabia. And then maybe Netherlands, Songhai, Siam, Indonesia.
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For comparison purposes, pure military civs and just bad civs should work too. Going with nations like America, Japan, Iroquois should work as well.
 
Olodune said:
I know the MP folks prefer that option, but that's for unit spam no?
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Can be, but mostly because im mp games you can't afford to buy a university or 2 since gold is more scarce and useful for other things.

I'm guessing that Acken predicted that his Liberty approach would be better combined with MC first due to that gold scarcity aspect.
 
Olodune said:
That's interesting. I certainly support pre-Edu aqueducts in a science heavy Liberty game, but am less certain about Metal Casting / Workshops. I know the MP folks prefer that option, but that's for unit spam no?
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My idea is that besides 2-3 cities most can't work the slots anyway and hammer boosting stuff are better early than late. It will also cut down 2-3 turn per cities when building the unis.
 
Here's a screenshot from the Shoshone game someone posted. Nothing too fancy, this is on pace for a 250ish finish. Far from a HoF game but good enough for my own standards. Shoshone on a map like this are crazy OP, and super fun to play, first test run of these guys :)
 

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Took a look at it... my goodness...
I just realized I have the opposite of claustrophobia actually... so much space... I'm at a loss what to do and where to settle... :lol: so many luxes and so much space...

I would actually prefer cramped maps to this one :lol: at least with cramped maps I rest assured that the decisions I made were good ones... Here, I have nightmares seeing -60 happiness when ideologies come in after overexpanding and growing them all so, so tall thanks to those rivers.
 
I'm not sure if the Expanse is worth more or the Pathfinders. I mean, I got to pop 6, and hit Writing so I could have build the Great Library, wow

I spawned a Great Engineer from the Liberty finished but the 7 city NC would only take 8 turns so I didn't want to waste him, so I missed Pisa by 2, Globe by 1, FP by 2, finally hitting him on the Taj Mahal :D
 
Why are y'all talking about Pathfinders when this map is Korea? :confused:
 
There is a pair of maps, Korea and Shoshone, both are stupidly awesome, but since I messed up the Korean opening, I'll have to kick it out again. This one I'll try to finish and see how it goes, it's shaping up to be better than any of my TTP turtling SVs

oh wait, that's just me missing the point. Oh well, wait up a tick for me to load it up again when I get home
 
Part of the genral discussion of Liberty vs Tradition for pure SV., on the challenge side. Manpanzee got a 228 with Lberty and people are playing his map and Acken's. I am all for it. Tempted to add it to the original post, but I would have to ask permission from Manpanzee. 2 great civs for science both well suited for Liberty and both OP. Shoshone probably better for Liberty, but Acken's map is fantastic, almost custom made for Liberty (i have finally kicked off my game). So much fun! If Liberty does not prove itself to be competitive with Tradition, with these civs and these maps, then I don't know how to rig the game to give it an advantage. It looks as if nobody is playing Tradition, except Ironfighter, but I guess that is probably enough.:)
 
Where is the Shoshone map?
 
Bleidraner said:
Part of the genral discussion of Liberty vs Tradition for pure SV., on the challenge side. Manpanzee got a 228 with Lberty and people are playing his map and Acken's. I am all for it. Tempted to add it to the original post, but I would have to ask permission from Manpanzee. 2 great civs for science both well suited for Liberty and both OP. Shoshone probably better for Liberty, but Acken's map is fantastic, almost custom made for Liberty (i have finally kicked off my game). So much fun! If Liberty does not prove itself to be competitive with Tradition, with these civs and these maps, then I don't know how to rig the game to give it an advantage. It looks as if nobody is playing Tradition, except Ironfighter, but I guess that is probably enough.:)
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I'll play tradition...
However it's pretty obvious that if liberty needs a map tailored specifically for it then tradition by far is better in the majority of circumstances... :lol: but even then, large spaces also means there's no point in fast expansion either and if the player is Ironfighter... well you'd better do your best to beat him :lol:
 
kb27787 said:
I'll play tradition...
However it's pretty obvious that if liberty needs a map tailored specifically for it then tradition by far is better in the majority of circumstances... :lol: but even then, large spaces also means there's no point in fast expansion either and if the player is Ironfighter... well you'd better do your best to beat him :lol:
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Well you gotta start somewhere. If it's already too hard on a great liberty map it speaks ill of what happens on a less favorable ;)

Also from my current testing while I have good results (T172 plastics this time) I feel it is way harder to play than the usual tradition. Less straightforward, lot of angry neighbors etc.

It is already known that tradition always work and is a safe bet.

Here is my T172:
Spoiler :


You'll notice that I have to build the labs... something I usually don't do with tradition. If Liberty players manage to buy 8 labs on that turn I'm all ears. Mercantilism would help a ton but I don't have it. Maybe it will be a way to make it stronger but you'd have to skip Trad opener in that case I think.
 
In my game, I'm lucky enough to have Enrico reform with Jesuits. I won't get anywhere near your turn times, Acken, but I'm going for Domination anyway! :p
 
Acken said:
Well you gotta start somewhere. If it's already too hard on a great liberty map it speaks ill of what happens on a less favorable ;)

Also from my current testing while I have good results (T172 plastics this time) I feel it is way harder to play than the usual tradition. Less straightforward, lot of angry neighbors etc.

It is already known that tradition always work and is a safe bet.

Here is my T172:
Spoiler :


You'll notice that I have to build the labs... something I usually don't do with tradition. If Liberty players manage to buy 8 labs on that turn I'm all ears. Mercantilism would help a ton but I don't have it. Maybe it will be a way to make it stronger but you'd have to skip Trad opener in that case I think.
Click to expand...

Wow, your pop distribution is really flat. My current hypothesis with Liberty is that you should pick out a few cities to grow especially tall, rather than having them all about the same size. That way you get much better rush-buying efficiency with science buildings.

For example, let's say you have 120 pop among six cities at the time you hit Labs. You get more bang for your buck if you rush buy 3 Labs in 24-pop cities and build 3 Labs in 16-pop cities than if you rush buy 3 Labs in 20-pop cities and build 3 Labs in 20-pop cities. With Tradition it doesn't matter so much, since you can often buy all science buildings everywhere.

Stuff like this is why I think Liberty still has significant untapped potential. Management of city growth rates is much more complex than Tradition, and you actually have to think about things like pop distribution that otherwise don't matter much.
 
Acken said:
Less straightforward, lot of angry neighbors etc.
Click to expand...
Did you have to fight Dido? I see a city ruin there. My plan would be to build early archers and go harass her, but I won't get to this map until later on this or next week anyway.

Also, did you hard-build Petra or was it GE-rushed?
 
I fought Dido, Isabella and Gustavus. Dido around T125 and the other two simultaneously around T80.

Yes hard built Petra but that was kind of a dare since I got it around T100, I'm not getting much out of it besides the route :)
 
Acken said:
I'm not getting much out of it besides the route :)
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You still have 5 desert hills outside your territory. But I guess you are saving money for spaceship parts.

There is also that incense, but I wonder if settling closer to it would be beneficial at all.
 
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