People forget that some myths are true. More cities means more culture, more tourism, more beakers, and more gold... but in the early game when it takes a very long time to tech and build those things? Yeah, you can run your gold and happiness into the ground with Shoshone settler spam.
Are the Shoshone completely overpowered?
- Thread starter shneb
- Start date
And that's where you'd be wrong. Ethiopia counter-intuitiatively plays better when going wide thus getting a huge faith buildup. People like to cling on to defensive turtling though due to the combat bonus.
Shoshone are very strong on a large map where there is lots of territory to explore. And with the ancient ruins, while you can't seem to get the same enhancement twice in a row, you can get them more than once. My last shoshone game had 3 pathfinders upgraded to comp bowmen, and 3 times I got faith from ruins, easily netting me the first religion in the game.
As for comparison to the older civs, yeah, some look a bit bland now. But Babylon and England are as great as ever! And the enhanced France is pretty fun for a culture game (although not overpowered).
As for comparison to the older civs, yeah, some look a bit bland now. But Babylon and England are as great as ever! And the enhanced France is pretty fun for a culture game (although not overpowered).
Gliese 581
Your average civ junkie
I'll tell you what's overpowered. My last game as Spain I found barrier reef nearby, bought a settler and worker, settled the tile then bought both the natural wonder hexes for my secondary city, with gold to spare from my 1k finder's fee. Ofc I founded a pantheon and chose +4 faith from natural wonders. Boom I now have 2 tiles that each produce 4f 2g 2h 4 science and 8 faith (since the 4 faith is also doubled for Spain). The Shoshone can only weep when witnessing such power.
MantaRevan
Emperor
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2011
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- 1,537
Actually, that's a pretty good idea. It's obviously not as strong as Mayan ICS because of pyramids, or I ought to give it a go some time.
Gaizokubanou
Warlord
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2006
- Messages
- 253
I actually find the Shoshone to be among the weaker new civs when played by a human. Human players can't simply spam cities and still have positive happiness, so the ability to settle cities and start with extra land is a great benefit to the AI, but simply a good benefit to the human.
The Pathfinder is somewhat like Spain's UA: find at least 4 or 5 Ruins huts and it's a great bonus. Otherwise, it's just a free starting scout, which is a nice boost, but not overpowered, and it's a UU that can never be upgraded so it's not something you'd want more than 2 or 3 of anyways.
The Commanche UU is okay. It's a later mounted UU that has more speed and costs a bit less. Nothing amazing.
When the AI is Shoshone, though, if they build even just 4 or 5 cities when I'm their neighbor, I often have to raze one simply to get room to build my 3rd.
The Pathfinder is somewhat like Spain's UA: find at least 4 or 5 Ruins huts and it's a great bonus. Otherwise, it's just a free starting scout, which is a nice boost, but not overpowered, and it's a UU that can never be upgraded so it's not something you'd want more than 2 or 3 of anyways.
The Commanche UU is okay. It's a later mounted UU that has more speed and costs a bit less. Nothing amazing.
When the AI is Shoshone, though, if they build even just 4 or 5 cities when I'm their neighbor, I often have to raze one simply to get room to build my 3rd.
Very strong yes but not OP like Venice 
I think even Morocco is even a tad better especially if you start in a resource rich desert terrain and close enough to expand into normal/jungle terrain. Those Berber Calvary are beasts in the desert although it does take a while to get them.
Shoshone get off to a strong start but money talks in this game and Venice, Morocco and Portugal all excel in that area.
I think even Morocco is even a tad better especially if you start in a resource rich desert terrain and close enough to expand into normal/jungle terrain. Those Berber Calvary are beasts in the desert although it does take a while to get them.
Shoshone get off to a strong start but money talks in this game and Venice, Morocco and Portugal all excel in that area.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
I LOVE the Shoshone, have played two complete games with them already, and have enjoyed them immensely.
BUT
rather than Overpowered, in my latest game, playing as Songhai, the AI-Shoshone were wiped out by their neighbors before I even met them - last night I found their capital wearing Polish colors on the other side of my Pangea Huge continent!
I find that in BNW, geography is much, much more important than in previous Civ5 games. In that game I mentioned, the Shoshone apparently started right in the middle of a cluster of other Civs - Poland to the east, Assyrians to the northwest, China and Monty's Aztecs to the northeast, and as soon as Pocatello built his second city, he encroached on somebody's desired territory and got hammered for it - at least, that's how I reconstruct what happened to him.
On the flip side, I've started two successful Shoshone games with starting positions that had expansion room to one side that wouldn't encroach on neighbors, so by the time someone noticed Shoshone borders spreading their way, I was too firmly established (with Pathfinding Comp Bows) to attack.
BUT, I've abandoned two games as Morocco because my initial position was so far from any other civ or city state that I couldn't establish any trade routes at all at first. That makes a mockery of the Moroccan UA, puts them in a financial hole early on, and all because of the chance of the starting position...
BUT
rather than Overpowered, in my latest game, playing as Songhai, the AI-Shoshone were wiped out by their neighbors before I even met them - last night I found their capital wearing Polish colors on the other side of my Pangea Huge continent!
I find that in BNW, geography is much, much more important than in previous Civ5 games. In that game I mentioned, the Shoshone apparently started right in the middle of a cluster of other Civs - Poland to the east, Assyrians to the northwest, China and Monty's Aztecs to the northeast, and as soon as Pocatello built his second city, he encroached on somebody's desired territory and got hammered for it - at least, that's how I reconstruct what happened to him.
On the flip side, I've started two successful Shoshone games with starting positions that had expansion room to one side that wouldn't encroach on neighbors, so by the time someone noticed Shoshone borders spreading their way, I was too firmly established (with Pathfinding Comp Bows) to attack.
BUT, I've abandoned two games as Morocco because my initial position was so far from any other civ or city state that I couldn't establish any trade routes at all at first. That makes a mockery of the Moroccan UA, puts them in a financial hole early on, and all because of the chance of the starting position...
Gliese 581
Your average civ junkie
Ah, the good old dice tier Isabella strikes back
I might call Spain a hit or miss civ except I play them a lot and with the standard settings with start bias enabled I'd say without exaggerating that I find a nearby natural wonder in 8 or 9 games out of 10.
Even if the natural wonder you find is one of the less awesome ones like old faithful or the grand mesa that's still either 6 happiness/ 4 science or 4 production / 6 gold from working those tiles as well as the ever present Mt. Sinai effect of choosing the +4 faith from natural wonders pantheon and having it doubled.
On top of the gold you gain for finding it and the doubled global happiness from each natural wonder you find (2 instead of 1) which ensures Spain always has 1,5 extra resources for happiness effectively by the end game than any other civ.
Edit: So what has this got to do with the OP again? Just an example of one of many civs that are much stronger than The Shoshone.
Randall_Flagg
The Evil One
Meh they are bland and boring for me. Of course I dislike the ruins. I would much rather play as Morroco or Venice.
True_Candyman
Emperor
They are a solid civ that you can't really play wrong, a bit like china. That doesn't make them good like China though, they aren't even nearly on a level.
On the higher difficulties especially, the shoshone are a problem. If you are rexing, yes you may grab land faster but you would be grabbing that land eventually anyway with any other civ. Usually you don't get a hugely significant benefit from having extra tiles in terms of citizen assignment as you'd usually settle around some good tiles anyway, the only real advantage to it is grabbing luxuries early so you can stay happiness positive as you expand.
However, the extra land you grab sooner makes the AI more inclined to dislike you sooner. You'll develop borders faster and create a quicker dow. That can leave you vulnerable and disrupt your strategy. The + defence bonus part of their UA in my opinion is a nice counter to this, but really should not be seen as much more than an offset for this big hidden negative that comes with their UA.
UU wise, the comache riders are meh. The pathfinder is a nice solid reliable scout. It's nothing special, the ruins you get are never gamebreaking you'll just be slightly luckier than everyone else (maybe) in the first 45 turns. That advantage doesn't stay long, it just gives you a little nudge forwards, it's then up to the player to secure that advantage and that's easier said than done. Nothing is a forgone conclusion because of the pathfinder.
Overall i'd say the shoshone are a fairly average civ. I can think of at least 12-15 better (qualitatively of course). I don't find them to make winning any easier than any other civ with a good start, they can maybe make better use of a bad start at first but it's still gunna bite you in the long run.
On the higher difficulties especially, the shoshone are a problem. If you are rexing, yes you may grab land faster but you would be grabbing that land eventually anyway with any other civ. Usually you don't get a hugely significant benefit from having extra tiles in terms of citizen assignment as you'd usually settle around some good tiles anyway, the only real advantage to it is grabbing luxuries early so you can stay happiness positive as you expand.
However, the extra land you grab sooner makes the AI more inclined to dislike you sooner. You'll develop borders faster and create a quicker dow. That can leave you vulnerable and disrupt your strategy. The + defence bonus part of their UA in my opinion is a nice counter to this, but really should not be seen as much more than an offset for this big hidden negative that comes with their UA.
UU wise, the comache riders are meh. The pathfinder is a nice solid reliable scout. It's nothing special, the ruins you get are never gamebreaking you'll just be slightly luckier than everyone else (maybe) in the first 45 turns. That advantage doesn't stay long, it just gives you a little nudge forwards, it's then up to the player to secure that advantage and that's easier said than done. Nothing is a forgone conclusion because of the pathfinder.
Overall i'd say the shoshone are a fairly average civ. I can think of at least 12-15 better (qualitatively of course). I don't find them to make winning any easier than any other civ with a good start, they can maybe make better use of a bad start at first but it's still gunna bite you in the long run.
Securion
Civ Veteran
I would place the Shoshone at the bottom with Denmark and Japan. In other words; The Completely Useless Tier. Have only played them two times though so it might change...
True_Candyman
Emperor
Still not as broken as an upgrade ruin for a hunnic warrior.
I rushed a shoshone player in mp as celts days ago. Granted, bnw was still pretty new and he was like "how do you have so many units!". My point is, if you have a mind to do it, there's nothing about shoshone that stops an early rush if a player has a mind and facilities to do it, unless he had built exactly as I had, 3 cities early plugging out units.
Maybe that's part of the problem psychologically. You get 3 or 4 cities with massive floor space, a few military units and believe you're golden. You're not golden, and you've only attracted alot of attention to yourself from nearby predators.
I agree immortal and deity difficulty, shoshone are non-competitive, and multiplayer you only get as far as other players' inexperience let you get.
Magean
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2009
- Messages
- 474
Since apparently the question "Are the Shoshone overpowered" seems to be revolving around the tall vs wide debate... I'd like to say that, from my experiences, I found it far easier to effectively manage my gold and happiness when wide (Shoshone, Poland) than when tall. And even culture fared quite well.
I also used to think, like many other people, that with BNW, going wide, rexing or ICS had been considerably nerved (science penalty, no more gold from rivers...).
But on the other hand, wide empires are better for a religious playstyle. You can amass faith from shrines and temples, which with the adequate Piety policy can be built quite fast, even in small cities. Tall empires that want to follow the religious way have to rely more on what is unsure : getting Stonehenge, or the right pantheon belief to extract faith from terrain...
And once you have your religion, its very easy to get happiness and culture from pagodas or mosques (preferably both, but having both is a luxury).
Then, the rebuffed Piety comes into play. Now Piety is much stronger, so its perfect for that "wide and religious" strategy. (especially if you can get Jesuit Education)
Its true that my wide BNW experiments were weak in science at the beginning of the game. But they proved later incredibly strong, generating much more faith, much earlier, than my tall empires.
So... here come the Shoshones. If you time well your ruins bonus, you can get a lot of faith from scouting. I personally got 20 faith at first, and later 60 ! You will almost certainly get your Great Prophet very early.
And while you are still weak in science, your defensive bonus from the Shoshone UA can prove very useful. If the AI even bothers to declare war, which it doesn't seem to do any more (with the exception of warmongers like Shaka or Genghis).
Moreover, wide empires produce more more culture, and for this reason resist Tourism better.
To sum it up... Are the Shoshone overpowered ? I don't know. But they're certainly very strong.
And I forgot : the American Manifest Destiny discount on tiles looks a bit... meh in front of the Shoshone huge cities. Well, Manifest Destiny is more than that but still. The Shoshone are IMO better at throttling an opponent by claiming all the good land on the map.
I also used to think, like many other people, that with BNW, going wide, rexing or ICS had been considerably nerved (science penalty, no more gold from rivers...).
But on the other hand, wide empires are better for a religious playstyle. You can amass faith from shrines and temples, which with the adequate Piety policy can be built quite fast, even in small cities. Tall empires that want to follow the religious way have to rely more on what is unsure : getting Stonehenge, or the right pantheon belief to extract faith from terrain...
And once you have your religion, its very easy to get happiness and culture from pagodas or mosques (preferably both, but having both is a luxury).
Then, the rebuffed Piety comes into play. Now Piety is much stronger, so its perfect for that "wide and religious" strategy. (especially if you can get Jesuit Education)
Its true that my wide BNW experiments were weak in science at the beginning of the game. But they proved later incredibly strong, generating much more faith, much earlier, than my tall empires.
So... here come the Shoshones. If you time well your ruins bonus, you can get a lot of faith from scouting. I personally got 20 faith at first, and later 60 ! You will almost certainly get your Great Prophet very early.
And while you are still weak in science, your defensive bonus from the Shoshone UA can prove very useful. If the AI even bothers to declare war, which it doesn't seem to do any more (with the exception of warmongers like Shaka or Genghis).
Moreover, wide empires produce more more culture, and for this reason resist Tourism better.
To sum it up... Are the Shoshone overpowered ? I don't know. But they're certainly very strong.
And I forgot : the American Manifest Destiny discount on tiles looks a bit... meh in front of the Shoshone huge cities. Well, Manifest Destiny is more than that but still. The Shoshone are IMO better at throttling an opponent by claiming all the good land on the map.
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