[Vote] (6-03) Move Moai Defense Bonus to Encampment

[pineappledan]

Then maybe instead of moving the bonus, just make an addition?

My chief concern in all of this is that the Shoshone are trying to build a coherent kit around homeland defense and aggressive-defensive expansion, but they are hampered by the fact that, in multiple ways, they are using knock-off, second-rate versions of things other civs do better. Many of those civs don't even use those parts of their kit as a core part of their strategy; they are just perks.

- Polynesia has a much more flexible, unique, and powerful home defense bonus than the Shoshones have, but Polynesia is in all other respects not even a war-focused civ. Their biggest bonuses are towards early exploring, settling, and improving coastal lands, and getting a culture victory.
- Huns have a free tile mechanic that gives 2-3 times more free tiles than the Shoshone's, and their combat bonuses aren't even tied to owned territory like the Shoshones are. They have more powerful, more flexible, more useful versions of everything the Shoshone have.
- The encampment is, in almost every way, eclipsed by the Moroccan Kasbah. The Kasbah has more tile defense, more damage per turn, better yields, and better tile requirements that make them easier and faster to set up and work.

If Shoshone are supposed to stand out as an interesting civ they should do something better than other civs, but they don't. They're just spare parts and cast-offs.

 

[Tekamthi]

Was any counter ever made with some kind of compensation to the moai? my attention's been elsewhere

as described in OP, I'm on the fence... its well-reasoned rationale but the implementation maybe only part-way to where it needs to be. I'll probably vote for it, with the idea that moai can be revisited next round to add anything deemed missing after this is removed

I think i'd like both shoshone and polynesia to have a version of this: shoshone affects land combat only & polynesia's naval combat only (or some other naval flavored bonus tied to the ui)

 

[adan_eslavo]

Was any counter ever made with some kind of compensation to the moai? my attention's been elsewhere

as described in OP, I'm on the fence... its well-reasoned rationale but the implementation maybe only part-way to where it needs to be. I'll probably vote for it, with the idea that moai can be revisited next round to add anything deemed missing after this is removed

I feel like we are doing a good move, but still, in the next Congress #7 there should be a proposal to fill the gap in the Polinesia. I still do not think it is right to take it away without recompensation. As others said, there might be playstyles that benefit this kind of bonus. It shouldn't be cut just because it is not for everyone.

I think i'd like both shoshone and polynesia to have a version of this: shoshone affects land combat only & polynesia's naval combat only (or some other naval flavored bonus tied to the ui)

Exactly! I don't know why we MUST take this from one... It's so stupid attitutde. I understand uniqueness, but we are heading the totally opposite direction like lunatics.

 

[azum4roll]

The only things Maori Warrior gets is being cheaper, iron-free, and the (radius-1) -15% CS aura. Without the moai bonus, they seem to be too weak as a UU.

 

[pineappledan]

Could give them frogman (ie. danish free embark). Would be thematic and helpful for their coast bias.

That would be way more acceptable to me than canal movement on Moai.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Could give them frogman (ie. danish free embark). Would be thematic and helpful for their coast bias.

That would be way more acceptable to me than canal movement on Moai.

Canal movement is dead. Voting is a knockout.

 

[Tekamthi]

Could give them frogman (ie. danish free embark).

lets use the improvement version of this, have it on the moai itself? it won't be AS powerful, and in this respect may need further small buff, but its already available in tables, and keeps things focused on the UI

i am not sure if you guys distinguish between 'canal movement' and the 'make passable' -- to me 'canal movement' also implies the disembark/embark movement for land units through these plots, though congress proposal only sought to 'make passable' for naval. In this respect, i think the land portion of 'canal movement' is right on for this improvement

 

[pineappledan]

No. Canal movement moai is silly. It’s silly enough on the feitoria.

 

[Tekamthi]

No. Canal movement moai is silly. It’s silly enough on the feitoria.

this 'canal movement' terminology is inaccurate here -- it implies BOTH passable to naval and the staged embark/disembark discount that canals get, all-in-one. It is silly on feitoria -- I was under the impression feitoria was made passable to naval, not aware that it got the full 'canal movement' w/ the embark/disembark -- thats another one i'd drop the passable part from, leave only embark/disembark.

Anyway i was misremembering the improvements table -- we cannot directly manipulate embark/disembark bonus that way. What we could do, is have moai grant unit standing on it a promo, and have that promo give an embark bonus -- but there would be no disembark bonus into the plot. Probably gonna have to look at something else.

I still like the +1 naval movement if starting turn within radius of moai -- we're already doing a radius check for the CS bonus, seems cpu-cycle-neutral to just move this to a movement bonus. But it'd require .dll-side updates

 

[azum4roll]

By definition, Navigation makes all embark/disembark from/to canal tiles 1 move (and Rocketry makes it 0.1). The ability is stacked on canals.

 

[Tekamthi]

By definition, Navigation makes all embark/disembark from/to canal tiles 1 move (and Rocketry makes it 0.1). The ability is stacked on canals.

ah okay i get it -- so if i set any improvement to true for <MakesPassable>, it will get all these extras too?

in promo table, these are defined individually -- would be nice to have same structure in improvement table

 

[Urzamax]

So to clarify, we can't do full Frogman bonus for Moai due to code restrictions? Bit of a shame, it would feel good to have that flexibility of movement on Polynesia, although in fairness it would be borrowing a lot from the Danish kit (albeit in a strictly defensive context rather than Denmark's much more offensively-tuned UA).

I do like the idea of the movement bonus for units near Moai provided it's not too much of a performance burden, it would make defending your spread-out empire a bit easier and would feel a bit like the kind of island-hopping that Polynesian settlers, traders and explorers once did irl.

 

[Thibix Magnus]

I understand the drive behind the move but I'm afraid it takes away something that stabilizes Polynesia's performance in sub-optimal starts. It is already feast or famine based on the map.

A shame I can't make a counterproposal. I'd have voted yes along with something simple like "Moai connects resources", or something crazy like "Polynesia always starts on its own island".

 

[azum4roll]

Polynesia doesn't warrant a nerf, especially not on a part of their kit AI can use well.

AI certainly doesn't use Moai well, since they never build them on resources and don't settle cities with Moais in mind. The combat bonus at least helps them fight inevitable wars since they tend to piss off others by settling everywhere.

As for humans, the best Moai spots are small (not tiny) islands, and those can be hard to defend. Naval units getting a +20% around the whole island can make the difference between holding it or not.

 

[pineappledan]

Polynesia has received several buffs recently:
- moai received added City adjacency and additional BGP base yield.
- free fishing boats was moved to embarked units, which makes them faster and cheaper to deploy
- As a naval civ, They also benefit from the galley/trireme split, since they have a powerful new classical toy that they — and only they — can move through deep water.
- Added 25% from tiles to converter added to Artistry most directly benefits Polynesia, who can spam more culture onto tiles than any civ.

If they need compensation for removing the 20% combat bonus for Moai, I would suggest:
- adding frogman (free embark) onto the Maori warrior
- extending the +1 Sight on embarked units to naval military units
- increasing the yields on atolls/fishing boats

 

[Tekamthi]

adding frogman (free embark) onto the Maori warrior

Strikes me that bonus should be combat oriented, since that's what we're removing, but this is a little underwhelming.

How bout Frogman and double move in coast across the unitcombat_melee line? Too much?

 

[pineappledan]

That's practically identical to Denmark, who gets free embark and +1 moves when embarked

Putting embarkation movement bonus on 1 unit is not going to transform Polynesia into Denmark, but putting it on all melee units would.

 

[Tekamthi]

That's practically identical to Denmark, who gets free embark and +1 moves when embarked

Putting embarkation movement bonus on 1 unit is not going to transform Polynesia into Denmark, but putting it on all melee units would.

yeah i was thinking specifically of denmark, trying to look for a similar-but-different model. Consider aztec and iroquois, both have very similar forest/jungle movement bonuses -- denmark applies these bonuses differently, doesn't it? like ALL embarked units get the mentioned bonus, and melee some extras on top? i haven't played em in a while, might be misremembering

anyway, when i play polynesia, i tend to end up with a lot of far-flung cities on islands, scattered all over. If bonus could be something that helps player move units between these great distances, even if its just some units (ie polynesia were excellent in the water, certainly, but not really known for large, mediterranean-style warships and naval combat, necessarily), then we'd have a worthy replacement in my eyes.

 

[pineappledan]

No. Denmark applies the bonuses identically. The only difference is one is tied to a promotion while Denmark’s is directly inside the UA.

You're drawing an equivalence between a single unit in a single era and multiple lines of units all game. It makes me think you haven't played any of these civs.

Having a UU with the same bonus to something that another civ gets all game is not the same thing.

 

[Tekamthi]

Denmark applies the bonuses identically.

from current database entries, I don't really understand what you mean here... is "identically" a stand-in for "too similarly"? is text wrong? am I reading the wrong entries? I certainly don't have every UA and congress update memorized:

viking promotion applied to all land units:

Spoiler :

Pillaging costs no [ICON_MOVES] Movement and heals an extra [COLOR_POSITIVE_TEXT]10 HP[ENDCOLOR].[NEWLINE]When pillaging [COLOR_POSITIVE_TEXT]non-Road Improvements[ENDCOLOR], gain 30 [ICON_GOLD] Gold, scaling with Era, and adjacent Enemy Units take [COLOR_POSITIVE_TEXT]10 Damage[ENDCOLOR].

longboat promotion to naval melee only:

Spoiler :

Pillaging costs no [ICON_MOVES] Movement and [COLOR_POSITIVE_TEXT]fully heals[ENDCOLOR] this Unit.[NEWLINE]When pillaging [COLOR_POSITIVE_TEXT]Improvements[ENDCOLOR], gain 60 [ICON_GOLD] Gold, scaling with Era, and adjacent Enemy Units take [COLOR_POSITIVE_TEXT]15 Damage[ENDCOLOR].

viking fury UA:

Spoiler :

Embarked units have +1 [ICON_MOVES] Movement and pay just 1 movement point to move from sea to land. Melee units pay no movement point cost to pillage.

As I read these, there's no double-move in coast, nor any embark bonus, nor any attribute applied only to land melee units (note that the "melee units pay no movement to pillage" in the UA is coded via the viking/longboat promos -- it should probably read "land units & naval melee units..."). I'm with you on the ideal that every civ should have unique abilities -- but we do have some that are very slightly different already (eg aztec/iroquois). So, refining my (most recent) idea from above for the sake of discussion, say polynesia gets embark bonus only (no disembark) & double move in coast across the unitcombat_melee line (could throw in gun as well just for continuity's sake): none of these specific mechanisms overlap at all with the viking UA & promos. They are similar, yes, but nonetheless unique.

Anyway my broader point is probably more important -- a combat-oriented bonus that suits the polynesia playstyle of far flung island cities would be a nice-to-have.