[Vote] (6-03) Move Moai Defense Bonus to Encampment

[pineappledan]

Proposal:
Remove the 20% combat bonus in your territory from the Shoshone UA
Remove the 20% combat bonus for units within 2 tiles of a Moai from Polynesia's UI
Give the Shoshone Encampment +20% combat bonus for units within 2 tiles

Rationale:
- Polynesia isn't much of a Combat civ, and from my own game experience I never even got to use this bonus.

- The other parts of Polynesia's kit give him a very different settling and mobility priority from other civs, focusing on islands, and maximizing coastline. He also gets to move and settle much more freely, in ways that make him immune to isolation, and barbarian interception (settlers can enter deep ocean to avoid barbs). My own experience is that Polynesia's design defuses border tensions and doesn't come into conflict with neighbours much at all. Therefore, this defensive bonus is wasted on them.​

- Polynesia is also more of a CV civ, with all their culture that they can put onto tiles. They aren't really a conquest civ.​

- Shoshone are built around this aggressive-defensive settling style that would leverage this bonus much better.

- His defensive playstyle already is built around using Shoshone's territory as a weapon against other civs, by claiming lots of land quickly, and then giving combat bonuses from that land. This encourages Shoshone to farward settle and provoke other civs into defensive wars, where Shohone can leverage their homefield advantages.​

- If encampments had the current Moai bonus, you could get the same combat effect as they currently have, but it would have the added benefit of being able to project a bit past your own borders.​

- This would be further enhanced by the Encampments still giving Shoshone the combat bonus even if the improvement is captured or stolen, so Shoshone would be given this irredentist combat edge.​

- This would differentiate them more mechanically from the Himeji Castle wonder, which currently gives an identical bonus to the Shoshone UA.​

- the encampment would have 1 more aspect that helps differentiate it from the Eki, which has many glaring overlaps with the encampment.​

The Polynesians, therefore, have a better version of the same kind of bonus that the Shoshone need, and they aren't even using it that much.

 

[Rekk]

Would rather just remove the Polynesian ability, since it's actually a jank UA masquerading as a improvement ability.

 

[pineappledan]

We could mention it in both the Shoshone UA and the UI text if it were moved.

The reason it is not mentioned in the current Polynesian UA is because there isn't space for it, but I think there is more space available in the Shoshone description.

 

[Recursive]

Would rather just remove the Polynesian ability, since it's actually a jank UA masquerading as a improvement ability.

Counterproposal, perhaps?

 

[adan_eslavo]

I guess Polinesia won't get anything in return?

 

[pineappledan]

They don’t need one, because this was an underdeveloped part of their kit. Shoshone can take the ability and leverage it into an actual relevant bonus.

 

[Rekk]

We could mention it in both the Shoshone UA and the UI text if it were moved.

The reason it is not mentioned in the current Polynesian UA is because there isn't space for it, but I think there is more space available in the Shoshone description.

Should I propose Antiquity Egypt, which uses Polynesia's ability?

 

[pineappledan]

You could! Then we could put the land defense back onto Shoshone.

Either way Polynesia is squatting on an ability someone else could use better

 

[rkkn]

uh, in my last polynesia game this ability was quite important. I don't think you can just delete an ability and say there's no impact.
Sure you can go settle islands and whatnot, but that doesn't apply to your capital. Unless you want to spend 10+ turns with no science or culture taking a gamble and searching for an island to settle your capital on.

Yes, all my other cities were on peninsulas and islands, but my capital was on the coast of a big continent. Montezuma somehow got way ahead of all the other AIs, settled his way towards me, and attacked. This combat bonus played a big part in letting me defend.

So while I agree that this ability makes a lot more sense on the Shoshone, I can't get behind the idea that removing it from Polynesia is inconsequential.

 

[Tekamthi]

this proposal makes a lot of sense, but i would compensate polynesia with something.... off the top, maybe have the moai confer a movement bonus to naval and embarked units ie. unit starting turn within 3 plots of moai gets +1 naval move that turn -- keeping something tied to the 3-tile range maintains a familiar feel to long-time polynesia players. And/or moai could allow embark/disembark cost bonus

 

[Anarcomu]

The calculation needed to check if any naval/embarked unit is within 3 tiles of a moai, every turn, is quit heavy if I remember correctly. You'd probably rather have units be inside border of a city with a moai.
Or, the embark/disembark thing looks strange thematically, but good -I guess- gameplay wise ?

 

[Solic]

I wouldn't straight up nerf Polynesia. They are also low on the simulated AI games ranking in terms of win rate. I like what this proposal does for the Shoshone though.

 

[Rekk]

You could! Then we could put the land defense back onto Shoshone.

Either way Polynesia is squatting on an ability someone else could use better

Looked at my backlog, and it won't happen this session. But it's good to know that we're amenable for changing this in the future.

 

[Tekamthi]

calculation needed to check if any naval/embarked unit is within 3 tiles of a moai, every turn, is quit heavy if I remember correctly.

Isn't this already being performed in status quo state? And would be as well for moving it over to Shoshone?

I suppose it might only be performing the distance check on a per combat basis, but even so the computation is still being done rather frequently, I imagine. I'll leave it to those with better knowledge of .DLL to assess, I can only guess how it may be implemented, really. Thematically it would make a good fit anyway.

Or, the embark/disembark thing looks strange thematically, but good -I guess- gameplay wise

True but it kind of fits with the abstraction for having feitorias as canals imo. Afaik these weren't canals at all, but their affiliation with naval things was sufficient to provide the canal effect in community's eyes

In any case I'd prefer this proposal with some kind of compensation to the moai, ideally naval related.

 

[pineappledan]

If people wanted to give Moai canal movement -- a terrible idea imo -- then the very least you could do is take it off of Feitoria, the other coastal UI. I think neither one should have it, because if you wanted you could just put a fort on a coast, but both having it is patently absurd.

It's like making every civ do the same thing is some sort of pet project. Why have different civs if you're going to make them all work the same?

 

[Tekamthi]

If people wanted to give Moai canal movement

You misunderstood... Feitoria/canal raised only as example of similar category of naval abstraction that might support a moai disembark or embark cost discount, and/or some other naval-related bonus that is not directly rooted in historical fact. A Moai canal is neither desirable nor suggested

 

[azum4roll]

The moai bonus also benefits Polynesian naval units. Would be less thematic on Shoshone who focuses on land defense, and on a UI that can be built inland.

 

[adan_eslavo]

The moai bonus also benefits Polynesian naval units. Would be less thematic on Shoshone who focuses on land defense, and on a UI that can be built inland.

Then maybe instead of moving the bonus, just make an addition?

 

[Rekk]

I suppose it might only be performing the distance check on a per combat basis, but even so the computation is still being done rather frequently, I imagine. I'll leave it to those with better knowledge of .DLL to assess, I can only guess how it may be implemented, really. Thematically it would make a good fit anyway.

I'm not aware of an ability that affects units at range 3at the start of the turn, so this will be a computational hit that every unit in the game needs to go through.

I just realized that this is probably why the Polynesia ability is part of the UA and not the UI, so that the check only needs to happen for Polynesian units.

 

[pineappledan]

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