Domination on Immortal/Deity - a noob's guide

Yeah, I wasn't joking when I said that the single biggest mistake noobs are still making is by building unnecessary buildings. The hammer opportunity cost of that kind of play is IMMENSE.

mbbcam said:

The base game map scripts are pretty terrible. I'd agree that Hellblazer's maps are much better, but you may still need to roll a few before you get one that looks OK for what you want to do. The maps are not easy to find, so here's a link:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nqmod/comments/4s2j3p/maps_pack_8_released/

You could also try the maps from Acken's mod. It's a bit of a fiddle, because you have to delete most of the mod if you only want to use the maps, but it's worth it to get some decent maps.

Also have a look at two mods: Rotate Start Position, and Reseed. These allow you to have a look at the map without having to play it. Can save a lot of wasted turns. If you are like me, you can save a decent-looking map and go back to it later having forgotten what it was like when you first saw it. (My memory is terrible these days...)

http://www.picknmixmods.com/mods/CivV/Maps/Rotate Start Position.html

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=468346

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Sad now. I dl'ed the hellblazer map pavks, and installed them, I think I have windows 8...anyhow...they seem to have installed ok, I was able to que them up on my set up game options...but when I clicked start game the little rotating globe appeared like it was loading but after that my whole computer froze and I had to do a hard restart after 10 minutes as I couldn't even access alt-ctrl-delete mechanisms to shut down civ5. Looks like they won't work on my computer.

Yeah that happens sometimes. Usually when I restart it works straight away.

Consentient...ok some I'm trying to be less noobish, but it's hard. I know I shouldn't build buildings...but do you not build workshop? Do you not build any cultural buildings at all? Do you not build Universities or the Gold buildings? Usually on Immortal I'm able to take 3-4 Capitals by turn 200. I'm a little slow. But then you have all the other Civs DOW. Which means no more trading partners. And because I was focused on units more than science, I have chu-ko-nu's for only a few(40-50) turns before they are going against infantry it seems like. When you go autocracy in order to get the happiness perk from castles...well...you have to build them, which means walls first and then castles in every city, I usually find I need the happiness by this time, cause some civ has like 100 tourism and i'm at like 6 tourism or so, maybe slight exaggeration but someone has just dominated in tourism and I don't have any great artists, writers, or musicians to have created any great works, much less the buildings to put them in since I haven't been building those.
Next do you draw the ire of other civs every DOW you make? Like say I'm fighting a civ and am almost to their capital while having had to go through several cities to get to it, I burn one, keep one for the lux, and he recently gets a CS to join his defense, one right on my borders, it was previously my friend and now it's against me in war. Should I accept peace for 10 turns, buy the CS, heal my units, and then redeclare war to go for his capital, or am I doubling my warmonger penalty for each DOW?

Second, where do you go after Liberty? in the Acken China LP 16 he takes Honor but then he regrets it and says he should have gone commerce. So honor or commerce? And do you usually try to pick up 2 points in patronage to get consulates? If you aren't building any cultural buildings you just leave aesthetics alone? I sometimes put a point in tradition just for the border expansion rates, so I can get more productivity in my cities, using gold for buying tiles sometimes means you don't have the gold to upgrade units. But I always invest in rationalism as soon as it is open...otherwise when I hit artillery they are doing like 7 damage versus enemy infantry and get one shotted. Sorry lots of questions...but noobism...it's hard to rid yourself of.

The guide gives a good idea of which buildings should be built, and which not, and when to build the ones that do. Yeah, I build Workshop, but really late. The priotity should be making between 1 and 3 armies before you give a monkey's about your empire.

If your window for CKN runs out, you have to stop and push towards artillery. I tried to make it clear what I mean by the edge in the guide.

Don't keep a city just for the lux. Only keep it if it has either a) a public school and a large pop; b) a key warmongering wonder like Pyramids, Machu, Notre Dame, etc. or c) you have to keep it for strategic reasons because launching an assault on the next city without keeping the one in question, is a bad idea.

NEVER let a CS on your borders slip from being your ally. CS gifts should be the main thing you are spending gold on.

After Liberty, yes go to Commerce. If you finished early and didn't reach Medieval, then Trad opener is definitely the best option. I never go for Patronage in a domination game unless I am roleplaying. Yes, leave Aesthetics unless you are doing violent CV. You simply don't need Rationalism with domination. You can get to artillery before they can get to Flight 10 times out of 10 if you beeline it correctly.

And protect your artillery from whatever they are going through by killing the units they have first. Dont try to rush the siege or ranged units into city attack range if they have units swarming about. Kill those units first.

IceMatrix - did you ever start war later? What about practicing growing your empire until Dynamite and then upgrading some Cannons? There is a good video from Moriarte that does this.

sort of a random Domination question, but has anyone ever seen a CS take a capital before? Or take the last city of a civ? Im in an Immortal domination game and one of the capitals i took is pretty isolated (razed two cities on the way there cuz it has a Harbor) but the two CS beside it are at war with me and I only have a single gatling there and it's well into modern era. they are bringing a strange mix of Gr. War Infantry with pikemen, haha, and a couple gatlings between the two of them. they dont have the city down even 1/4 of the way but they have enough to take it. if they do would they revive Washington? ive just never seen a CS take a cap, just cities and other CSs.

and on the other side of the map i've got Arabia's last city to nothing but no melee there to take it and the CS seemingly wont take it. The city focused on it's sole riflemen and dropped it 1/3 health and it retreated.

Hammer Rabbi said:

sort of a random Domination question, but has anyone ever seen a CS take a capital before? Or take the last city of a civ? Im in an Immortal domination game and one of the capitals i took is pretty isolated (razed two cities on the way there cuz it has a Harbor) but the two CS beside it are at war with me and I only have a single gatling there and it's well into modern era. they are bringing a strange mix of Gr. War Infantry with pikemen, haha, and a couple gatlings between the two of them. they dont have the city down even 1/4 of the way but they have enough to take it. if they do would they revive Washington? ive just never seen a CS take a cap, just cities and other CSs.

and on the other side of the map i've got Arabia's last city to nothing but no melee there to take it and the CS seemingly wont take it. The city focused on it's sole riflemen and dropped it 1/3 health and it retreated.

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They will take city not liberate. I have seen city states taking capitals before. Biggest city state empire I remember was 3 cities. They usually raze cities if they can or if they dont have happiness. And I suspect they dont raze cities that have world wonder

Hammer Rabbi said:

sort of a random Domination question, but has anyone ever seen a CS take a capital before? Or take the last city of a civ?

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Yes and yes. If their melee units are retreating its because they think they cant capture it before being killed. That what Ive seen. Sometimes though they will have 3 trebbuchets and 5 longswordsmen and will capture big citires.

I try to follow up your Guide but my first neighbor is in a very bad terrain for me. Sadly I have to pass Russia before I can get to the other civs. Can you please give me a hint how do you handle a bad Terrain like this:

Consentient isn't around these days, so he may not see your question. I am very far from being a good player, but on terrain like that you might have to wait until you get artillery before you start your war.

Personally, I wouldn't play a map like that. I tend to use maps that don't produce mountain chains or choke points, because I just find them a drag instead of being fun. The Hellblazer maps are much better, in my view, and so are Acken's.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KiFTUkF8zxbRdN_AmQ-jIwdUAjnriO2wYNGBuqphcCM/edit

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=550671

Note that in the case of the latter you can extract the map part if you don't want to use the rest of the mod.

As for the map you are playing now, I'd say that you need a MUCH bigger army. And it is very late in the day. If you haven't started a war with 8-10 crossbows by about turn 110, you will not get very far. Crossbows will only be effective to about turn 150 on Deity, (as I believe it states in the guide). And crossbows will be *much* more effective if you have spent a lot of turns (and I mean about 30-40 turns) farming experience by constantly bombarding (or being bombarded by) a city state. Crossbows with logistics are a whole different thing.

As Consentient states, certain maps are "Domination friendly" and others are not. That one is not, in my view. I would have given it up as soon as I found Russian shielded behind the mountains. In my view, the standard map scripts are dreadful and they result in awful maps that are not worth playing much of the time. But I'm not as good as others. However, do yourself a favour and try some different maps. I think you will have a better game.

DonManInBlack said:

I try to follow up your Guide but my first neighbor is in a very bad terrain for me. Sadly I have to pass Russia before I can get to the other civs. Can you please give me a hint how do you handle a bad Terrain like this:

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i think you just need to take St Petersburg to get a foothold past that mtn ridge. it's only def 22 at the moment. use your impis and crossbows to kill a lot of Russian units first. then maybe travel by water if you already teched Optics which i assume you have. the city def will probably be 25-28 after the turns of unit killing though. but still, impis/xbows will be easy enough while the city def is about 30 or less. and impis are cheap to replace too. maybe set some workers to chopping forests or building roads thru that terrain while killing units. it would speed up the replacements getting there.

some tactical tricks are using workers as bait or sending in trebs to take some targeted shots off your other units too. trebs/catas are fine for sacrificing.

edit: is this Immo/Deity? i usually see more city defense by 138 than that.

Thanks for your help so far. I've already begun to chop down the forrest between me an Russia. I've scoutet the bottom but there's another choke point. I think I will try a few things with this Map but I think it will last to long to defeat Russia so probably I won't win this. Maybe I try out some custom maps after this. And yes you're right it is Immo [emoji15]

This is a view of my current game, which just happens to be on turn 138. It's one of the maps I mentioned (can't remember which). It's Continents, with four Civs on each continent. As you can see there is quite a bit of space, but a nice rounded landmass with no mountain chains. It's on Deity level.

I farmed experience from Vatican City for many turns before finally capturing it. I have just fought off the first "carpet of doom" of Samurais, Pikes, Knights and so forth, so I've lost a few meatshields, but the Longobows have been gaining experience. The plan is to grind down Japan and hope that Venice and Austria do not get too strong. They tend to buy up all the City States, which means that they can increase their power quite quickly and surround you.

DonManInBlack said:

Thanks for your help so far. I've already begun to chop down the forrest between me an Russia. I've scoutet the bottom but there's another choke point. I think I will try a few things with this Map but I think it will last to long to defeat Russia so probably I won't win this. Maybe I try out some custom maps after this. And yes you're right it is Immo [emoji15]

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i would say not to underestimate the late game units. you can win with bombers or xcom or artillery upgraded to logistics if you can prevent them from winning CV or SV. but it would require a shift in production to more science for now. you would still have 150+ turns to achieve this. AI rarely wins pre-300 on Immo. it helps to bribe the leaders into wars to keep them off their plans.

edit: but that terrain is a shame to not let you abuse your impis as much.

DonManInBlack said:

Thanks for your help so far. I've already begun to chop down the forrest between me an Russia. I've scoutet the bottom but there's another choke point. I think I will try a few things with this Map but I think it will last to long to defeat Russia so probably I won't win this. Maybe I try out some custom maps after this. And yes you're right it is Immo [emoji15]

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Build roads to St. Petersburg, it's faster than chopping and you get a significant movement bonus for your military. You will need the road once you capture Moscow anyway. Getting St. Petersburg will be a little bit hard since you don't have much room, but once that is done Moscow should be fairly easy, you already have a road built towards it (you don't but it's just two tiles you actually need) , and you can surround it fast.

Dom: there are some things you need to fix in your playing.

1. Scout better. You need to find all the city states, natural wonders and plan your game ahead.
2. City locations. If the two that are near the coast were ON the coast, they would be twice as big with cargoe boats.
3. Science. Its really low. And mainly because your cities are too small.

but mbcam is right. this map is traaaaaaash

DonManInBlack said:

I try to follow up your Guide but my first neighbor is in a very bad terrain for me. Sadly I have to pass Russia before I can get to the other civs. Can you please give me a hint how do you handle a bad Terrain like this:

Spoiler :

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I'd plant a city on the Spices, DoW Russia and let her do the attacking. If you don't mind exploiting the game mechanics, bribe Catherine to attack Washington first and then DoW to break the deal; you can also do it the other way around and bribe Washington then DoW him, since he can't do any damage to you anyway. Stay on defense for a bit, worker-bait and kill most of Cathy's troops, get a Great General and some additional army while you're at it. You can then citadel-bomb in if you have to, or just flood in with Impis/Xbows.

What's wrong with maps with mountain chains or choke points?

Yes they're harder and not 'domination friendly', but more realistic imo; however this map is not so bad really.

There are jungle hills south Petersburg, place 3-4 XBs on them before war, rest + Impis north - Petersburg will fall very quickly, and then Moscow

As vadalaz said it's worth consider to to do some bribes before war.

mbbcam said:

I farmed experience from Vatican City for many turns before finally capturing it.

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Farming experience from CSs is quite overrated mechanism imo. (I prefer to gain experience in real wars)

It's 138T and you've just conquered your potential ally (on this turn I have usually at least half capitals on pangea).

I'd attack Venice and Japan or Austria with CBs first.