Carthage
- Thread starter Funak
- Start date
Don't AI have a calculation for when to keep a captured city puppeted and when to anex it? You could use that but with slightly more flavour to puppeting?
If not then that's sad, thought we were onto something for a while.
Mass-settling without making the cities puppets won't work, you get way behind by settling mediocre cities.
Out of ideas.
Carthage was:
-> A colony of Tyre, which gained independence after the fall of Tyre and then started spreading its influence over other colonies and founding its own
-> Economic powerhouse, controlling trade over the Mediterranean and trying very hard to maintain monopoly.
-> Strong military navy came to be because of the need to protect and control their trade endeavors
-> To expand their trading markets they launched many expeditions to discover new lands, including the famous expeditions of Hanno the Navigator (Atlantic coast of Africa) and Himilco the Navigator (Atlantic coast of Europe) - this is incorporated into Events and Decisions, which is great
once per era a free settler, great admiral and two ships.
-> They fought many wars with the Greeks and Romans over the dominance in the Mediterranean,
-> Much of their wealth came from the mines of copper and silver they controlled in Iberia
-> Phoenicians rarely served in land army, most of them was in the navy and the few that were soldiers served in the Sacred Band or cavalry formations.
-> Their main fighting force consisted of Libyphoenicians (children of Phoenicians and Libyans) who could improve their life position through service in the army, and foreign mercenaries. During the second punic war most of the soldiers were Iberians.
-> They started as a monarchy and turned into a republic after a failed military campaign in Sicily. The most important organ of power became the Council of Hundred and Four, while the executive official, similar to a Roman consul, was a Shophet (Suffet, Suffete).
Anything else? Any ideas for UAs due to these accomplishments?
(I would still opt for a UB, because the elephants really weren't important for Carthage. Just an imported military tool)
Carthage was:
-> A colony of Tyre, which gained independence after the fall of Tyre and then started spreading its influence over other colonies and founding its own
-> Economic powerhouse, controlling trade over the Mediterranean and trying very hard to maintain monopoly.
-> Strong military navy came to be because of the need to protect and control their trade endeavors
-> To expand their trading markets they launched many expeditions to discover new lands, including the famous expeditions of Hanno the Navigator (Atlantic coast of Africa) and Himilco the Navigator (Atlantic coast of Europe) - this is incorporated into Events and Decisions, which is great
once per era a free settler, great admiral and two ships.-> They fought many wars with the Greeks and Romans over the dominance in the Mediterranean,
-> Much of their wealth came from the mines of copper and silver they controlled in Iberia
-> Phoenicians rarely served in land army, most of them was in the navy and the few that were soldiers served in the Sacred Band or cavalry formations.
-> Their main fighting force consisted of Libyphoenicians (children of Phoenicians and Libyans) who could improve their life position through service in the army, and foreign mercenaries. During the second punic war most of the soldiers were Iberians.
-> They started as a monarchy and turned into a republic after a failed military campaign in Sicily. The most important organ of power became the Council of Hundred and Four, while the executive official, similar to a Roman consul, was a Shophet (Suffet, Suffete).
Anything else? Any ideas for UAs due to these accomplishments?
(I would still opt for a UB, because the elephants really weren't important for Carthage. Just an imported military tool)
void_genesis
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2011
- Messages
- 429
To me carthage is about the ultimate synergy of naval power and trade. They dominated the mediterranean sea very early in history.
As such I reckon giving them an early cargo ship that cannot be plundered by barbarians (or even other AIs) would be interesting. Giving it extra range would also be interesting so it can be used as a different mechanism for exploring the map in a limited way (maybe even make forming a trade route with a CS or AI be enough to meet them for the first time).
As such I reckon giving them an early cargo ship that cannot be plundered by barbarians (or even other AIs) would be interesting. Giving it extra range would also be interesting so it can be used as a different mechanism for exploring the map in a limited way (maybe even make forming a trade route with a CS or AI be enough to meet them for the first time).
void_genesis
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2011
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- 429
To me carthage is about the ultimate synergy of naval power and trade. They dominated the mediterranean sea very early in history.
As such I reckon giving them an early cargo ship that cannot be plundered by barbarians (or even other AIs) would be interesting. Giving it extra range would also be interesting so it can be used as a different mechanism for exploring the map in a limited way (maybe even make forming a trade route with a CS or AI be enough to meet them for the first time).
As such I reckon giving them an early cargo ship that cannot be plundered by barbarians (or even other AIs) would be interesting. Giving it extra range would also be interesting so it can be used as a different mechanism for exploring the map in a limited way (maybe even make forming a trade route with a CS or AI be enough to meet them for the first time).
The problem is that these bonuses are incredibly frontloaded. If we are to stay with the old UA of free harbors and add something more to that, then the other part of the UA should IMO be an over the game bonus.
Free trade route right away is just a passive bonus which helps throughout the game (and gets more valuable as trade routes become more lucrative), but still it is frontloaded. As Carthage you get everything right away, and then are left with almost nothing (as 3 gpt saved on mainenance per Harbor is very poor). Yes, it is logical that an ancient/classical civ gets most of its bonuses early, but Babylons GS generation works the whole game, Assyrias free techs work the whole game, Rome's production works the whole game, Same with Egypt, China, Persia, Greece. Celts are frontloaded, but get a strong UB and this frontloaded bonus gives them a long-lasting benefit in a strong religion. Mayans have an early UU and UB (which is useful all game long...), but UA is long term.
Carthage right now is similar only to the Huns in the bad situation of having a super early bonus which fades and leaves them with almost nothing later (the +1 production on pastures, as city razing doesn't really count as a strong bonus. Well, shorter unhappiness when razing a large city). And it is not fitting as Carthage didn't have a one short lived conquering spree - Carthage prospered for 7 centuries. It's much, much longer then Babylon existed as an independent empire, longer than Assyria and longer than any of the Persian dynasties (because another dynasty meant another state basically) or the Caliphate.
For Huns it might feel bad but still it somehow fits them. Rush with your uniques, conquer your neighbours and then stabilize and prosper as a vanilla civ with a huge swath of land.
Damn it, I just wrote another rant which is very close to offtop.
What does it actually mean? Every turn gain x yield because a caravan/cargo ship is moving a couple tiles? Or every time you change the base? What would be the difference from "+x yield from trade routes"?
If we want to make them insane expansionists along the coasts then maybe we could make the Quinquereme a settler ship? Of course tweaking the costs. That was one of my initial ideas (quinqueremes settling puppets for a gold price, getting consumed. And the Cothon UB was supposed to give a trade route if built in a puppet, which Funak regarded insanely strong.
Free trade route right away is just a passive bonus which helps throughout the game (and gets more valuable as trade routes become more lucrative), but still it is frontloaded. As Carthage you get everything right away, and then are left with almost nothing (as 3 gpt saved on mainenance per Harbor is very poor). Yes, it is logical that an ancient/classical civ gets most of its bonuses early, but Babylons GS generation works the whole game, Assyrias free techs work the whole game, Rome's production works the whole game, Same with Egypt, China, Persia, Greece. Celts are frontloaded, but get a strong UB and this frontloaded bonus gives them a long-lasting benefit in a strong religion. Mayans have an early UU and UB (which is useful all game long...), but UA is long term.
Carthage right now is similar only to the Huns in the bad situation of having a super early bonus which fades and leaves them with almost nothing later (the +1 production on pastures, as city razing doesn't really count as a strong bonus. Well, shorter unhappiness when razing a large city). And it is not fitting as Carthage didn't have a one short lived conquering spree - Carthage prospered for 7 centuries. It's much, much longer then Babylon existed as an independent empire, longer than Assyria and longer than any of the Persian dynasties (because another dynasty meant another state basically) or the Caliphate.
For Huns it might feel bad but still it somehow fits them. Rush with your uniques, conquer your neighbours and then stabilize and prosper as a vanilla civ with a huge swath of land.
Damn it, I just wrote another rant which is very close to offtop.
Gazebo said:
What does it actually mean? Every turn gain x yield because a caravan/cargo ship is moving a couple tiles? Or every time you change the base? What would be the difference from "+x yield from trade routes"?
If we want to make them insane expansionists along the coasts then maybe we could make the Quinquereme a settler ship? Of course tweaking the costs. That was one of my initial ideas (quinqueremes settling puppets for a gold price, getting consumed. And the Cothon UB was supposed to give a trade route if built in a puppet, which Funak regarded insanely strong.
Let's step back a bit - I think we're getting a bit too far afield here.
We have free harbors - a fine part 1 to their UA. All we need is a part 2.
1.) It needs to be AI friendly.
2.) It shouldn't step on the toes of other civs.
3.) It should represent Carthage historically.
4.) It should be fairly simple to implement and explain.
Now, as interesting as the puppets/trade routes/etc. stuff is, that is fairly complicated. Also, we can't have invulnerable cargo ships - the AI doesn't understand that, and would continually attempt to target them. Same with puppet cities - the AI is simply not equipped to handle complex settling behaviors.
I'm leaning towards the 'free yields (specifically Gold) on city settle' UA model as it is AI friendly, it has synergy with their existing UA, and it allows Carthage to immediately improve their newly settled cities using the gold that they receive. It offers an element of flexibility, has the potential to be useful all game (as it'll scale with era), and ties into Carthage's 'economic powerhouse' history.
G
We have free harbors - a fine part 1 to their UA. All we need is a part 2.
1.) It needs to be AI friendly.
2.) It shouldn't step on the toes of other civs.
3.) It should represent Carthage historically.
4.) It should be fairly simple to implement and explain.
Now, as interesting as the puppets/trade routes/etc. stuff is, that is fairly complicated. Also, we can't have invulnerable cargo ships - the AI doesn't understand that, and would continually attempt to target them. Same with puppet cities - the AI is simply not equipped to handle complex settling behaviors.
I'm leaning towards the 'free yields (specifically Gold) on city settle' UA model as it is AI friendly, it has synergy with their existing UA, and it allows Carthage to immediately improve their newly settled cities using the gold that they receive. It offers an element of flexibility, has the potential to be useful all game (as it'll scale with era), and ties into Carthage's 'economic powerhouse' history.
G
Well if you want a boring effect, you could just give them a percentage extra cityconnection gold bonus(like the machu picchu wonder? Synergises aswell and have flavor with the tradecolonies historically. If you want to make it more interesting make it a bonus to both the gold from cityconnections and the production from railroadconnections.
Othervise in my honest opinion i can't see why you would get gold from settling a city unless you settle it on top of el dorado.
Why is yield on settlement a boring effect? Indonesia does that with luxuries, so why not have a civ that does it with yields? At least it is an active UA. Not every UA has to be a whizz-bang revolution in design and purpose.
G
Gazebo, could you please explain to me how this unused trait you mentioned works? The wording seems iffy and I have trouble understanding it, and it could be something fun perhaps?
I am with Funak when it comes to a bonus when founding. Once you've founded, you're done, nothing more will come from that. If you actually make the gold sum large enough, then in later eras the bonus might exceed the cost of a settler, so it could lead to exploits like rush buying a settler, founding a city in the snow and selling it to the AI (and then it turns out there is platinum, gold and oil in the area xD).
And I really don't like the city connection gold/production bonus (production bonus works over harbors right?). It would be a total freebie, a passive increase present always (because city connections are free over water for Carthage, not free only for landlocked cities) with the exception of the city being blockaded by the enemy. I've spoken about that: if you get something free/cheap, you shouldn't have it stronger too. If we provide such a bonus, then no free harbors.
If we are at boring bonuses: Empire-wide naval unit production could work (but is sooo meh).
Less boring: specialists. Specialists are fun and they have potential. We could give them increased generation of great merchants (if only were they useful), gold generation on all specialists, food generated by merchant specialists, or some kind of luxury resource bonus (but Netherlands...)
I am with Funak when it comes to a bonus when founding. Once you've founded, you're done, nothing more will come from that. If you actually make the gold sum large enough, then in later eras the bonus might exceed the cost of a settler, so it could lead to exploits like rush buying a settler, founding a city in the snow and selling it to the AI (and then it turns out there is platinum, gold and oil in the area xD).
And I really don't like the city connection gold/production bonus (production bonus works over harbors right?). It would be a total freebie, a passive increase present always (because city connections are free over water for Carthage, not free only for landlocked cities) with the exception of the city being blockaded by the enemy. I've spoken about that: if you get something free/cheap, you shouldn't have it stronger too. If we provide such a bonus, then no free harbors.
If we are at boring bonuses: Empire-wide naval unit production could work (but is sooo meh).
Less boring: specialists. Specialists are fun and they have potential. We could give them increased generation of great merchants (if only were they useful), gold generation on all specialists, food generated by merchant specialists, or some kind of luxury resource bonus (but Netherlands...)
Well you can't give cities to the AI anymore (unless they want them), so that's not an issue.
The trade route trait works like this - every time an owned trade unit moves on the map, you receive x yield (culture, gold, etc.). So, essentially, if you have 5 trade units, and all move during your turn, you gain 5x whatever yield. It is similar to Morocco, however it is not dependent on each trade route being a unique civ, and other players gain nothing from it. This could work well for Carthage.
G
Why is yield on settlement a boring effect? Indonesia does that with luxuries, so why not have a civ that does it with yields? At least it is an active UA. Not every UA has to be a whizz-bang revolution in design and purpose.
G
I think there is a pretty big difference between gaining a resource and gaining a flat amount of gold. Gold come and go, but resources are eternal!
Honestly I think all all instantageous effects are really boring, that's the same reason why I dislike cityplanning and to some degree the liberty finisher.
Your other effect just seems like a weird way of writing gain X yield/turn for every traderoute you have. Guess the real difference would be it working for internal traderoutes aswell. So what yield would one aim for in that case? Gold? Seems kinda boirng, 'wow my traderoutes gives me more gpt' anything other than gold and it seems pretty damn powerful even if you just put it at 1X/turn/traderoute
CunningGabe
Chieftain
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- Feb 23, 2014
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I actually really like the instant effects. And instant gold on settle has a very nice synergy -- you can buy your favorite building or unit for your city right away.I think there is a pretty big difference between gaining a resource and gaining a flat amount of gold. Gold come and go, but resources are eternal!
Honestly I think all all instantageous effects are really boring, that's the same reason why I dislike cityplanning and to some degree the liberty finisher.
void_genesis
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2011
- Messages
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I see carthage as the ultimate combination of naval might and trade. Could we give them better cargo ships, earlier, longer range, better gold yield or most importantly not plundered by barbarians to give synergy with coming earlier? Even better you could make their cargo ships capable of meeting new AIs when they establish a trade route, so you can explore the local area in a limited way by using your sea trade routes.
Another idea to make great merchants more fun: could you make the great merchant trade mission effect more powerful or interesting? How about letting a trade mission permanently double the amount of happiness from the CS luxuries? This would also support a wide empire, give them a focus on mercantile CS with unique extra luxuries, but in the long run you would have to maintain the alliance to get the benefit (so if you have an AI carthage there might be enhanced CS around that are worth winning over for yourself). The code for the AI to use trade missions is already there- maybe just boost its emphasis for carthage AI? Couple it to a modest boost to great merchant production rates and you have a useful focus and synergy. Extra happiness and gold can be used for any strategy after that.
Another idea to make great merchants more fun: could you make the great merchant trade mission effect more powerful or interesting? How about letting a trade mission permanently double the amount of happiness from the CS luxuries? This would also support a wide empire, give them a focus on mercantile CS with unique extra luxuries, but in the long run you would have to maintain the alliance to get the benefit (so if you have an AI carthage there might be enhanced CS around that are worth winning over for yourself). The code for the AI to use trade missions is already there- maybe just boost its emphasis for carthage AI? Couple it to a modest boost to great merchant production rates and you have a useful focus and synergy. Extra happiness and gold can be used for any strategy after that.
All depends on the gold bonus. In "Carthage Improved" mod the UA was free harbors, 100 gold on settling and 30% naval unit production. 100 gold was kinda useful, but not anything to get super excited about. If it is like 200 gold +100 per era, then it might be getting somewhere.
Nevermind that then, wasn't aware of this being changed.Well you can't give cities to the AI anymore (unless they want them), so that's not an issue.
Gazebo said:
Idk, 1 culture per trade route per turn doesn't feel too powerful, especially when it doesn't get you tiles. If it was food or production, where would it go? To the city the trade route started in? Food and production would be weird though.
Faith would only be suitable with Messenger of the Gods (it could actually be incorporated into this pantheon... Overall it could use something like scaling with era).
Culture and Science could be explained as flow of ideas and propagation of culture via trade. Science would get very weak very quickly though and scaling with era doesn't fit there as while in antiquity the bonus is understandable, in modern era science was produced in laboratories and universities and flow of ideas wasn't through trade ships, but through telegraphs, mails and conferences.
What could be interesting is a steady flow of golden age points from trade routes. It could be flavorful. Because you get more benefit from trade routes than other people, you would fight to get more trade routes (wonders) and to protect the ones you have. I kinda like that UA - and it is kinda unique, even if it is just a silly wording. It isn't completely passive as it adds some gameplay - you prioritize trade routes even more.
I think gold and golden age points would be quite fun. Or idk, maybe add tourism to that once something is built/researched? Unless you prefer the on settling bonus? And still nobody commented on my merchant specialist improvement suggestions
Lord Tirian
Erratic Poster
For the record, I like the lump gold on settle, though it should definitely scale with era. What about this UA:
Phoenician Traders: Cities start with a free harbour and provide a sum of gold on when settling. Starts with one extra trade route and gains a second extra trade route upon entering the classical era.
Bolsters expansion and trade and keeps relevant for the entire game (with the classical trade route unlock avoiding the front loading a bit, heck, make it "one extra trade route every two eras").
I'd also keep the elephants but roll the mountain crossing into an unit promotion. That way we keep the flavour but make it a genuinely unique unit with a promotion that can be quite effective/powerful when you upgrade the unit.
Phoenician Traders: Cities start with a free harbour and provide a sum of gold on when settling. Starts with one extra trade route and gains a second extra trade route upon entering the classical era.
Bolsters expansion and trade and keeps relevant for the entire game (with the classical trade route unlock avoiding the front loading a bit, heck, make it "one extra trade route every two eras").
I'd also keep the elephants but roll the mountain crossing into an unit promotion. That way we keep the flavour but make it a genuinely unique unit with a promotion that can be quite effective/powerful when you upgrade the unit.
Four extra trade routes, it is along the lines of what I thought as being strong but not broken. But Gazebo would consider it stepping on Venice's toes I think. I prefer the bonus on trade unit movement honestly over the lump sum of gold. I think two bonus trade routes is a safe number, more than that is debatable, but all depends on numbers.
You know, the problem is that historically only one elephant survived the journey across the Alps.
I really don't like the elephant as a UU. Mounted units are generally mediocre - they are good at dealing with ranged and siege units, but offensively they don't do anything really. They can help get rid of the enemy army, but ranged units would be good enough to do that on their own. And if melee units aren't strong enough to take cities by themselves, then mounted units are in even worse situation. And elephants weren't that important in Carthage's history. They're a nice icon, something which people think of when they hear "Carthage", but elephants didn't even live in the mediterranean coast, they had to be imported. If we were to give them a second unique unit, I would go with Balearic Slingers, African Pikemen, Sacred Band, Numidian Cavalry, maybe some kind of Iberian unit, or Libyphoenician infantry/cavalry. There are many units in Europa Barbarorum to choose from.
But still I'd prefer a UB. Go go Cothon! xD
I'm the only one thinking that is way too much?
Carthage is my fave since I participated in a historical contest in high school writing a paper on "Influence of the Punic Wars on the development of the art of war" so if something isn't "OMG WTF THAT'S INSANELY STRONG", I'm gonna accept it. So I will be kinda biased and even though I know it, it's still hard to control.
Lord Tirian
Erratic Poster
Yeah, upon reflection, I think free harbour and lump gold is more than enough. The lump sum gives you a strong active component and the free harbour already facilitates early trade and makes money.
I think if we scale the lump gold properly, it works well with the strength throughout the eras, too. The free harbour is very useful at the start but a lot less interesting/powerful mid-game. Scaling gold makes up for that.
Would still miss the mountain crossing elephants - and still think having them as promotable UU would be the best. It's unique and cool - and part of Civ is also that it has some "pop history" to it. Having mountain crossing elephants is the same as having the same leader for 6000 years - completely unrealistic but makes it more iconic.
