Carthage

That's not quite as accurate as it was before the fall patch (and whoward/my changes).
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I remember reading something about that, but even assuming it actually works like you still usually run into problem with early hate. Once one guy denouces you, his friends will denounce you and then their friends will denounce you and suddenly your friends have denounced you aswell leaving you in a pretty big up uphill battle, even if warmonger hate drops faster.

But again this wasn't really my original point, my original point was that the Carthegean UUs combined are still worse for early conquest than a siegetower or a battering ram.
And since they don't fill any other role or have any useful promotions that are carried over on upgrade they are both pretty weak.
Also having them in the same era means you have to do a pretty specific techpath to get both of them early enough to actually be of use
 
I remember reading something about that, but even assuming it actually works like you still usually run into problem with early hate. Once one guy denouces you, his friends will denounce you and then their friends will denounce you and suddenly your friends have denounced you aswell leaving you in a pretty big up uphill battle, even if warmonger hate drops faster.

But again this wasn't really my original point, my original point was that the Carthegean UUs combined are still worse for early conquest than a siegetower or a battering ram.
And since they don't fill any other role or have any useful promotions that are carried over on upgrade they are both pretty weak.
Also having them in the same era means you have to do a pretty specific techpath to get both of them early enough to actually be of use

Both UUs are strong (stats-wise) well into the Medieval period, thus you get almost three eras worth of use out of them. That's a fairly long time for a UU to remain relevant.
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Both UUs are strong (stats-wise) well into the Medieval period, thus you get almost three eras worth of use out of them. That's a fairly long time for a UU to remain relevant.
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Okay, let's just assume that you're right. So what would you do with them? What role do the UUs fill?
 
The elephants have the additional function of a global strength reduction to anyone adjacent to them. So instead of the usual hit and run cavalry tactics, Carthage can have Elephants march alongside the infantry, making enemy units softer, especially in combination with flanking.

Between the two the Elephants are the better, but having 2 more strength for Navy Melee is pretty good for coastal sieges, if you're patient and wait until the city HP is low before attacking.
 
You are trying to make points for poor UUs where they are not really relevant.

When I play Carthage I usually do it on water maps. Lately I tried playing with them on Continents to have an opportunity to use elephants, but also to not get completely screwed by having no UA. The result was that I still didn't build any elephants (maybe one in a game?). The thing is that land war in Civ 5 is waged using ranged units. When you are taking cities you usually only have two melee units to do the last hit, the rest is done by the comp bows. Elephant does have the aura which can be useful, but they are still a melee unit with a penalty against cities.

What is a bigger problem is that Elephants don't fit to Carthage. Yes, Carthage used elephants in some battles. No, it wasn't their symbol. No, it wasn't the backbone of their army. It's just a popculture icon, we are better than popculture.

Also two early UUs would suggest that Carthage would be some kind of early rusher. while they historically weren't. They waged wars to protect or expand their trade zones - fierce competition with Syracuse over Sicily comes to mind, and later conflicting spheres of influence with Rome which led to the Punic Wars. Carthage was a trade colony, which later became independent, rose to power and started creating its own trade colonies, subjugating nearby tribes (Libya, Numidians, Iberians). Their expansion was purely for resources and trade. Elephants definitely make sense for India, as even today they are bred, trained and used for hard labor. Carthage? Not so much.

I know that I repeat myself, but Carthage was a trade power, an economic power. Seafaring civilization focused on trade. All the exploration they did and all the wars they did were for economic reason (or to defend itself). Naval UU is fitting as they did create a very strong navy. Should it be quinquereme? I am not convinced as these ships were built by other nations too, though the Romans copied the design, but I think it fits well enough. Early access to it is also nice and fitting, extra strength makes sense, I would maybe think of some exploration bonus. Other than that it is fine.

Overall I don't really like the current UA. The gold is certainly useful, but it doesn't feel good. You get free monies others don't get. You don't work for it, it's just there. Yes, the more you expand, the more you get, but overexpansion might hurt you more than it helps. Yes, there are decisions involved as to what to do with that money, but it's still not exciting. Also with the current mechanic of barbarians looting gold from cities you can easily lose a lot of gold if you settle, especially since the amount looted seems proportional to the amount in bank. Early on gold is sparse so it's hard to keep all cities garrisoned (and sometimes they still steal even if you fight them with units).

I am with Funak in that I think Carthage needs a UB. Gazebo claims that not all civs have to have a UB/UI, but there are other civs who did get a UB. I already mentioned Rome - I don't think they needed a UB, as they were already a very strong civ with a great bonus helping them throughout the entire game, and combination of two UUs allowed them to have a conquering spree early on - which is fitting, as Rome did go and conquer everything around them. Carthage didn't.

The UA is only useful earlygame, later it becomes a very small bonus, the gold obviously makes it better but it also makes it even more of an early boon (because you don't settle that much late in the game, especially on higher difficulty levels where the AI starts expanding and founding like crazy). That's why I think the second part of the UA should put an emphasis on trade or some other economic bonus which is there throughout the game, ongoing, and not just bam, you get a pile of money when you do something (it doesn't really make sense to get gold when founding by the way, where does it come from?). And I would scrap the mountain crossing. It can be fun, but is extremely situational and when it does come into play it is not a large bonus. A detriment at its worst (you shouldn't automate workers as Carthage when you get a GG), a gimmick at its best.
 
I am with Funak in that I think Carthage needs a UB. Gazebo claims that not all civs have to have a UB/UI, but there are other civs who did get a UB. I already mentioned Rome - I don't think they needed a UB, as they were already a very strong civ with a great bonus helping them throughout the entire game, and combination of two UUs allowed them to have a conquering spree early on - which is fitting, as Rome did go and conquer everything around them. Carthage didn't.

I'm not going to keep nagging for a UB, but if you're going to run with double UU you need them both to have a purpose and fill a role, and as it is now neither one really do.
They are somewhat stronger versons of existing units, sure, but what are you going to do with them? Conquer? Neither of them are good for that, Exploring? Nope, any other gimick? Nope. And they don't really upgrade well either.

As they are now they will help you defend yourself early on, something that makes sense if you have a strong UA/UB that helps you get ahead by simply existing, like Babylon or Korea. Carthages current ua helps them expand faster, something that sounds good in theory but doesn't really work out in practice because of happiness issues and because they AI tend to soak of all the good locations pretty quickly.
 
I'm not going to keep nagging for a UB, but if you're going to run with double UU you need them both to have a purpose and fill a role, and as it is now neither one really do.

Well, I will because I feel it is the right thing to change. I don't want Carthage to be marginalized to one event of Hannibal crossing the Alps. The game should put more emphasis on what Carthage was actually about - maritime trade, not a single famous event.
If you really want to keep the elephant UU then even the quinquereme could be discarded though as other nations also built quinqueremes, and trireme could be good enough. Then trireme could be available at sailing for everyone, and quinquereme at optics - also for everyone. Or we could make triremes be ranged and quinqueremes melee (similarly to what has been done in CEP), which would allow for viable early naval conquest, which is not possible currently with just melee ships.

What is in my opinion important is to give Carthage a significant, lasting economic bonus, preferably to trade.
 
Alright you two, I'll throw you a bone. :)

The Great Cothon: Unique Carthaginian replacement for the East India Company. Must have built a Market in the city, and have a National Population of at least 20. In addition to the normal bonuses provided by the East India Company, the Great Cothon provides additional gold for both recipient and target of trade routes from the city where it is built, provides two additional trade routes, and a slight boost to the value of city connections. Unlike the East India Company, the Great Cothon is made available in the Classical Era with the discovery of Currency.

This will replace the elephant.

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Wow, this is actually awesome. The bonus is very large, but it is still confined in that it is a wonder and not just a UB, so it can be controlled. And it adds some gameplay, because you probably want to benefit from it asap, but sometimes you may delay it a bit for the sake of different things. I like that. This also means that Carthage becomes significantly better as a tall empire, but it still helps the wide ones as the city connection bonus scales with the size of the empire.

I will test it as soon as I will be able to after you release.
 
Without reading numbers on the cityconnectiongold it sounds like it might be too powerful.

I'd rather have it somewhat weaker and provide the Quinquereme with a clear role.
 
Funak = never happy. :)

I'd test it before you make an assessment of its value. You only get one of these things, so it needs to be a potent upgrade to a NW.

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I just dislike pointless UUs, my goal is for all UUs to fulfill a role, and since no one can give me a role for the quinquereme. :D
 
Playing the game I noticed my quinqueremes had the coastal raider promotion - all melee ships got that, or just quinqs? After enacting Hanno's Voyage I easily took Poznań, which Casimir forward settled on my small continent, and the money I got from taking the city was also good (each attack earning about 20-30 gold, city strength was 7, 10 after the warrior entered it).

I built the Great Cothon quite late (in medieval already I think), and later I got Machu Picchu in Carthage. Right now, in Renaissance, I am swimming in gold (200 gpt) thanks to having 6 trade routes and stronger connections (35% bonus is really large) I also took happinness for enhancer belief, so no gold from there, but I did need this happiness.

So far the game feels awesome, as economically my empire is super powerful, and through this economy I can gain further advantage. I can't remember how many cities I am sitting on, but it's around 8 I think.

Still, the game is easier here as I chose small continents plus, getting a more water-focused map.
 
Why does UB provide the bigger value for incoming trades routes than for outgoing ones?
 
Then change this logic to just routes with the highest gold output? I've never cared on what benefits my TRs give to AI, nor should it.
 
And talking again about Carthage, what about the gold part of the UA?
Reading this thread about the development of present iteration, I see that the amount of gold was established before investment in buildings and rise across the board of purchase cost for buildings and units.
I think that actual amount (200 gold during Ancient and Classical) is a bit small, and a little increase of base amount around 225-250 could be done to adjust, relative to present costs.
What do you think Gazebo, could be reasonable?
 
I'm confused about the UU, the quinquereme.

She has a better strike force but as it can be built very early, it has no opponents.

It is dedicated to reconnaissance but as it can not be healed it must return to port when it is attacked by barbarian archers.

Would'nt it be more interesting to have a really dedicated reconnaissance unit, by reducing the attack value but adding the capacity to heal?
 
I'm confused about the UU, the quinquereme.

She has a better strike force but as it can be built very early, it has no opponents.

It is dedicated to reconnaissance but as it can not be healed it must return to port when it is attacked by barbarian archers.

Would'nt it be more interesting to have a really dedicated reconnaissance unit, by reducing the attack value but adding the capacity to heal?
There's a promotion for that. (quinquereme is not locked to scout promotions, is it?)
 
There's a promotion for that. (quinquereme is not locked to scout promotions, is it?)

I know there is a promotion but look where it is in the tree and how many xp you need :)

As I saif you get the unit sooner and the onliy source of XP is exploration because at this step there are now other boats to kill so having the promotion is not really an option. Don't forget too that by default you are limited to 45 xp on the barbarians.
 
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