The Merchant of Venice needs a limiting factor

The limit is happiness. I'm sure you can get 10-12 MoV in a game without trying very hard.

If you fear Venice wants to steal your ally, maybe declare war on them and capture the merchant (or let the CS take it)?

Or block access to the CS' terrain?

Or outtech the OCC?

Or just open a thread, call it "bad design" because you haven't understood what the strengths and limitations of Venice are and how to counter them.

Mercade said:

The OP has a point. Regardless of the (lack of) ease to get a GMV late game, if someone can walk up to your allied CS and snatch it (without even as much as a diplo penalty) then it is not right on the side of the other player. It's not without reason that Austria was changed to require 5 turns of Allied because it prevents snatching. This ability to come out of nowhere and snatch an allied CS without recourse (except war, but then you end up puppeting the CS yourself since there's no liberation) it's more like a random event in the style of SimCity. Oops ... a giant tornado wiped out Brussels.

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Thank you.

pkf said:

If you fear Venice wants to steal your ally, maybe declare war on them and capture the merchant (or let the CS take it)?

Or block access to the CS' terrain?

Or outtech the OCC?

Or just open a thread, call it "bad design" because you haven't understood what the strengths and limitations of Venice are and how to counter them.

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Block access to the CS terrain? Are you honestly trying to argue that potentially building up to 24 civilizan units for no reason than to stand in every tile surrounding a city-state and block the merchant is good design?

Outtech the OCC? Which doesn't matter, as the merchants ability works regardless of tech level.

And declare war, besides implying that the solution to everything is civ is actually a war game and there's no hope to play peaceful, it's also something in which there is no notification for, not always possible considering your current situation and the placement of you and venice, again, it's poor design to force the level of micromanagement to watch every city state, every turn, for a single fast-moving unit. Unless your implying if you see Venice is in the game always declare war on them immediately and never give peace, so Venice essentially breaks the already poor AI diplo system of the game?

So, you actually didn't list a single limitation of the merchant nor a way to counter them! You stated completely inane things a human player could do (note, if the AI can't do it, it's not a defense but the human gaming the mechanics) such as building 24 civilians to circle your city-state.

Honestly, there's not even a diplo penalty for stealing an allied city-state. There's nothing. The ability is broken and everyone is deluded in believing its all right just because Venice can't build settlers.

Nothing to see here, move along people.

The MoV is already sufficiently hammered.

1 slot for the Market, 1 slot for the Bank, 2 slots for the Stock Exchange. That's an insanely slow production rate.

now, ALSO remove 1 GS or GE for every MoV produced.

Compared to Austria-> just use gold and wait 5 turns.

Wrt to comparing to Austria above (the change to 5 turns), gold is super easy to get, MoV's are not. Austria got changed to allow defense vs. a gold or Coup buyout, both of which are either 'free' or very easy to get.

MadDjinn said:

Nothing to see here, move along people.

The MoV is already sufficiently hammered.

1 slot for the Market, 1 slot for the Bank, 2 slots for the Stock Exchange. That's an insanely slow production rate.

now, ALSO remove 1 GS or GE for every MoV produced.

Compared to Austria-> just use gold and wait 5 turns.

Wrt to comparing to Austria above (the change to 5 turns), gold is super easy to get, MoV's are not. Austria got changed to allow defense vs. a gold or Coup buyout, both of which are either 'free' or very easy to get.

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Again 2 innately free, a third free if you build a wonder, normal specialist production, and late game faith purchasing. It's not as difficult to get a large number of merchants as you want to make it sound.

On the other hand, no way to defend against despite continued investment, no diplo hit, hell, not even a notification on the ability.

was playing a team game with my buddy, he puppetted 9/12 city states on a small map before the end of the game (which ended just after the industrial era btw)

Honestly, both austria and venice are just plain broken. a completely ******ed concept in the first place of irreversibly puppeting city states. . . Like they polled a kindergarten class for good UAs and this is the best they could come up with.

remember, liberty yields 2 MoV if you complete it. And you get the freebie for optics. And if you build the right wonders and beeline the market, you can get another one without too much trouble. Four MoV by the medieval era are quite reasonable.

I don't want to dump the mechanic or change it too much, as otherwise it wouldn't be Venice. What I want to do is give an option if Venice steals one of your allied city states that's similar to catching a spy, you can immediately declare war without any kind of warmonger penalty.

This also touches on something about the game that's easily overlooked, IMO the game is only balanced for all civs if you are playing with all default settings with a huge, Continents Plus map. You need some islands, some larger land masses, several other civs and city-states. Further, I find adding 1 extra civ and 2-4 extra city states really creates a competitive, fun game.

Otherwise you consistently have one civ at least that stinks.

Um,

If you want to defend your CS allies against Venice, declare War on him. MoV cannot Acquire a CS that is at war with Venice.

Also, there is a HUGE opportunity cost to Acquiring a CS with a MoV, and it's called 60 Influence (with that CS) and 800g. In the Classical Period (more later and/or with the Commerce finisher). I'm not really sure that Acquiring the CS is superior to getting it as an Ally.

There's also the method described upthread regarding surrounding your important CS allies with units.

Really, though, ask yourself what your options are for stopping any opposing Civ from expanding. Generally, it's 'settle there first or declare war on them'. The same applies, in at least half, to Venice.

budweiser said:

The limit is happiness. I'm sure you can get 10-12 MoV in a game without trying very hard.

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Without trying too hard, perhaps... but with sacrificing other great people.

Deal with MoV just like you handle Great Prophets of other civilizations i.e DoW them & kill the GP. If they don't accept peace then take 1-2 horses & pillage the crap out of them.

I see your point OP but the thing is that they never sorted out Great Prophets issue then when would they do this one.
I agree that DoW on such things could be awkward but as seasnake suggested, such an offence by Venice can be solved by no warmonger penalty for the the nation whose CS was stolen.

Another easy solution that comes to my mind is that Venice can't steal the CS from civs with whom they have DoF. Also AI would take it as offensive move if Venice steals their ally CS.

seasnake said:

I don't want to dump the mechanic or change it too much, as otherwise it wouldn't be Venice. What I want to do is give an option if Venice steals one of your allied city states that's similar to catching a spy, you can immediately declare war without any kind of warmonger penalty.

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Are you sure that there is no warmonger penalty for DoWing on someone whose spy was caught by you? (through the special dialogue panel which appears)

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MadDjinn said to move along, I would believe him since he has played the game for a lot longer than two days, not to mention he really knows how to play and evaluate well.

Ulthwithian said:

Um,

If you want to defend your CS allies against Venice, declare War on him. MoV cannot Acquire a CS that is at war with Venice.

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That's pretty much the only defense. Unfortunately, it's a tedious one because you need to constantly check the terrain near your allies to make sure that Venice isn't sending a merchant.

Also, there is a HUGE opportunity cost to Acquiring a CS with a MoV, and it's called 60 Influence (with that CS) and 800g. In the Classical Period (more later and/or with the Commerce finisher). I'm not really sure that Acquiring the CS is superior to getting it as an Ally.

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This is just nonsense, though. First, the 60 influence doesn't matter because the city-state is no longer a city-state. It's now permanently part of your empire (unless somebody conquers it). You don't need Influence, so you haven't really lost anything except for the gold. That said, almost any city-state is bound to have buildings and units that cost far more than whatever gold you'd have obtained from the trade mission. So, what have you really lost?

In theory, you had all of your merchant specialist slots filled and you worked gold tiles instead of filling scientist slots and working production tiles. In practice, you can obtain a number of Merchants without doing this. You'll get one for free at Optics, one for free from Liberty, (possibly) one for free from Pisa, and some number of them from Faith in the later eras.

The only thing that you're actually losing are the Great Scientists/Engineers that you would have produced instead of Merchants. I guess that's something, but I don't think that it's enough.

There's also the method described upthread regarding surrounding your important CS allies with units.

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Entirely impractical.

Really, though, ask yourself what your options are for stopping any opposing Civ from expanding. Generally, it's 'settle there first or declare war on them'. The same applies, in at least half, to Venice.

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Sure, but you didn't spend thousands of gold on the unsettled land. In fact, you haven't invested in it at all. So, the situation isn't really the same.

The solution? I don't know. The 5-turn alliance requirement has some merit and it makes some sense from a flavor perspective, too. But, such a requirement would make it very difficult for Venice to expand in the early game. Perhaps, "You must be allied for 5 turns or there must not be an ally." That would still let Venice puppet a few early city-states since they tend to not have alliances, but would prevent them from snatching investments in the mid-late game.

Buccaneer said:

MadDjinn said to move along, I would believe him since he has played the game for a lot longer than two days, not to mention he really knows how to play and evaluate well.

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But don't you think stealing a CS from a civ should at least anger it? And stealing CS from a civ with whom you have DoF should be considered as backstabbing or similar?

Secondly MadDjinn also uses CS worker exploit. Do you approve that as well? There are always some ways to avoid an annoying exploit but certainly it is better to fix it than avoid it if possible.

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Kwami said:

That's pretty much the only defense. Unfortunately, it's a tedious one because you need to constantly check the terrain near your allies to make sure that Venice isn't sending a merchant.

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People do it for GPs already. Or simply eradicate Enrico as soon as you encounter him. You don't have to play reactively.

This is just nonsense, though.

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No, it is not.

First, the 60 influence doesn't matter because the city-state is no longer a city-state. It's now permanently part of your empire (unless somebody conquers it). You don't need Influence, so you haven't really lost anything except for the gold.

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So you at least admit it costs Venice 800g to acquire a CS? If they finish Commerce, it's more like 2k. Which could be far more than what their opponents paid to ally with said CS.

That said, almost any city-state is bound to have buildings and units that cost far more than whatever gold you'd have obtained from the trade mission. So, what have you really lost?

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What you gain:

A puppetted CS.

What you lose:

The ability to ally with that CS.
Any CS production that CS would give you.
A possible trading partner.
The money that must be spent to upkeep those buildings you didn't have to pay for.
Science output (due to having another city)

What you neither lose nor gain:

Access to the CSs developed resources (as the chances you _can't_ knock out the current ally of a CS with a MoV trade mission is miniscule).


You seem to act as if the MoV can only be used to Acquire CSs, and that Venice can't play the Diplomacy game. I would argue, especially early, that a MoV is much better used to Ally with a CS rather than Acquiring it, because if you beeline to the Medieval era to get access to Commerce/Exploration quickly, you can get a LOT more Culture (e.g.) from a Cultural CS by allying with it over Acquiring it. Same with a Religious CS, Mercantile CS... pretty much all of them.

In theory, you had all of your merchant specialist slots filled and you worked gold tiles instead of filling scientist slots and working production tiles. In practice, you can obtain a number of Merchants without doing this. You'll get one for free at Optics, one for free from Liberty, (possibly) one for free from Pisa, and some number of them from Faith in the later eras.

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You can get 3 Free MoV from Liberty if you take one with the Finisher. Regardless, though, you don't _want_ to go Liberty, I don't think, as Tradition gives you the population to work those Specialists.

Sure, but you didn't spend thousands of gold on the unsettled land. In fact, you haven't invested in it at all. So, the situation isn't really the same.

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And Venice, by your own admission, must spend at least 800g (in opportunity costs) to acquire the CS, which is at least 300g more than what anyone else has to pay to expand.

The solution? I don't know.

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The solution, at this point, is 'gather more evidence before clamoring for a possibly unnecessary nerf'. The only person that both regularly posts on these forums and has played BNW for any length of time (MadDjinn) has stated that there is no issue with the MoV. While I don't argue that the game should be balanced to his abilities, you cannot simply ignore his statements.

Babri said:

But don't you think stealing a CS from a civ should at least anger it? And stealing CS from a civ with whom you have DoF should be considered as backstabbing or similar?

Secondly MadDjinn also uses CS worker exploit. Do you approve that as well? There are always some ways to avoid an annoying exploit but certainly it is better to fix it than avoid it if possible.

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when it's purely a built in mechanic, a brand new one at that, and that has been so focused as to make the civ unusable otherwise, you're little 'exploit' comment is definitely a case of mislabeling.

Sure, some mechanics can be very annoying if you're on the wrong side of it, but they are there and you have options. And I rarely hear people complain when they are on the 'using' side of the mechanics, at least not 'omf gawd this needs nerfing!!@!#!'. So what this tells me is that the complaints stem from wanting to play one way (alone and untouchable) but the game was not built for that.

Basically, learn to adapt to the new mechanics.

I honestly wouldn't be so ticked if it was at least reversible (declare war, recap the city, liberate.) but for whatever reason, word of god says that you're no longer allowed to liberate that city, and if you don't want it, then that ex-city state is up in flames. This means that is you've put a good amount of culture into the patronage tree, it becomes increasingly and irreversably useless. At least with Austria they had to be allied with the CS first. . .

Basically from this point on, if I see venice in a game, I know that at some point in time (sooner rather than later, most likely) there is going to be a total war vs them in which one of us (the guy with 1 city, probably) gets killed, and even if you win, you lose because now everybody thinks you're a warmonger. There is literally no winning unless you plan to completely ignore disappearing city states.

EDIT: on a personal level (my opinion) is that I simply don't like the UA. It doesn't make sense. You can't build cities, or annex cities, but you can puppet city states with a UU. . . That's like if you're in the park playing chess, and some guy sits down and lines up his entire side of the board with checkers. It's nonsensical and confusing, and undermines several of the core game elements such as expansion, land acquisition, and even to some extent diplomacy, and just has the person playing venice chasing after MoV the entire game, and the rest of the players left to "deal with it" when they start stealing city states left and right.

As the game stands there are a number of ways for a single player to lose touch with a city state they work hard to gain advantage of. Other civs do quests, they rig elections, they conquer it, they marry it, barbarians ruin their lands. City States have an interesting lifeline in CiV. They either last all game and help you in ways, or they are prizes to aquire by more people than yourself. You have to defend the ones you want and forget the ones that are useless.

Buccaneer said:

Yet Venice still only had one city and you allowed that one city to build units that could steal your city-states? Venice's limiting factor is only one city, not several cities.

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This. Austria can always build cities, Venice cannot.

IAmOzymandias said:

Basically from this point on, if I see venice in a game, I know that at some point in time (sooner rather than later, most likely) there is going to be a total war vs them in which one of us (the guy with 1 city, probably) gets killed, and even if you win, you lose because now everybody thinks you're a warmonger. There is literally no winning unless you plan to completely ignore disappearing city states.

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and the same thing has always been said when Monte, Alex, Attila and co are your direct neighbour.

The limiting factor is that you know to kill Venice as soon as you find it.