SGOTM 10 - Team Liz

Welcome to your SGOTM 10 team thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game here, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

The starting saves will become available on the SGOTM Progress and Results page on May 7th, at midnight, server local time.

Thanks again to Gyathaar for coming up with the variant and developing the map.

You are Elizabeth of England, and your mission is simply to destroy the barbarians, who have evolved considerably in this game, having learnt a few tricks from their cousins in Civ4. They have advanced weaponry, they can build cities, and they have an uncanny capability to learn new technologies.

All victory conditions are switched on, but the winning team will be the one that achieves the destruction of the barbarian nation earliest.

Here's the start.


Map Parameters
Playable Civ - England
Opponents - Six: Mayans, Byzantines, Dutch, Inca, Sumerians, Barbarians.
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Emperor
Landform - Mystery
Barbarians - Non-standard

The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Game mods:
The game uses the default rules as defined in the SGOTM Reference Thread, with the following modifications:

- Galleys can never enter ocean tiles.
- There are some unusual advanced/modified Barbarian units.
- The Barbarians have research capabilities, and can build cities and wonders.

The SGOTM Mediterranean resources are included, as you can see from the starting screenshot. If you have played SGOTM 9 then you will be ready. Other players will need to download and unzip this small graphics mod pack. Details are provided in the SGOTM Reference Thread..

Please ensure that you have incuded the line: NoAIPatrol=0 in your conquests.ini text file.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared, skipping references to PtW or Vanilla versions of Civ3.

The GOTM Reference Thread.
The SGOTM Reference Thread.

Notes:

A. ONLY Conquests version 1.22 (C3C) is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for a single award.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - the laurels will be awarded for the fastest destruction of the Barbarian Nation. The wooden spoons will go to the team with the lowest final score.

C. You MUST play from the start file assigned to your team. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Have fun

Signing in ready for some serious Barby play

Any thought about what challenges you would set if you were designing this scenario?

My thoughts
cant enter ocean tiles until caravels -> cant reach barbs until Astronomy

special unique unit - how about a pirate unit replacing galley, sort of like a privateer that can reach our shores with say MM ->hordes of them to overcome with MoWs

barbs can build wonders -> how about a setup a bit like Entremont in last SGOTM where barbs can build wonders - doesnt quite fit with my view of barbs though

I think there will be science race to Astronomy with perhaps some special challenges close to home, then a few surprises in store when we reach the barbarian shores

Nice start position - whats the catch?
4 turn SF a must -> ? settle 1NE (i gr/wh +2f, i plain/game +1f, 1s, fish with harbour +1f, 2mBGs 2s each, giving +5f and 6s at size 5 (including 2f + 1s from centre tile), add 2 for growth and then work iplain at size 6 for 7s and again 2 on growth -> 6, 6+2, 7, 7+2 =30s )

Hello All! An especially warm welcome to new team members Paul and Redbad

Initial comments:

I agree with Andronicus about the move ne. Obviously right. Note, though, that the settler factory is available immediately; it does not have to wait for Harbours. iPlain + mBG + mBG + iDeer + iWheat = 5f + 6s @ size 5. Together with a second iPlain, this is enough for a SF. My memory fails. What does a clam do? +1f, +1s would be enough to get a settler factory w/o the plains and I thought it was at least that good.


I think there will be science race to Astronomy with perhaps some special challenges close to home, then a few surprises in store when we reach the barbarian shores.

I am absolutely sure (convince me otherwise) that the "barbs" are actually a real civ in locked war with everyone on the planet and that they are everywhere. This would be a fairly good approximation of Civ4 barbs. I can't see how Gyathaar could pull this stunt using the Civ3 editor unless this was the case. My guess is that their capital is on our continent but that they have at least one city elsewhere. Probably several.


Nice start position - whats the catch?

I am also willing to bet that they have good units right from the beginning. Like archers maybe (they know WC). Or even worse. Think RaR. I also think that they are close to us.

If I am right, this means that we can't just do the standard farmer's gambit and Republic slingshot. We will get blasted if we try. Once again, this approximates Civ4 barbs. We have to think defence from the get go. We might also want to think Monarchy but that decision doesn't have to be made immediately. I just want say that I am of the opinion that WW will be bad. In the last game I argued for Republic despite the known locked war. This time I don't believe the opponent can be contained so easily.

We need to get defence. The best defence is offence. WC first?

Double post

Does anyone have experience with AW? I don't.

Triple post. Spam. Spam Spam.

Does anyone know whether it is possible for a civ to have more than one non-standard unit w/o a special download? Or that this one unit could be anything other than the civ's UU?

My opinion, and it is just gut instinct, is that this is not possible. If I am right this means that once we have met one additional unit, there won't be others.

Redbad signing in, thanks for the welcome.

My thought on the barbs:
- very likely: they are present at least on another continent
- possibly: they are present on our continent
- possibly: they poses a 1-tile island
(as we can't get it in a peacedeal we need to go for marines)
- very likely: they are advanced on starters and can still be advanced when we reach astronomy
- possibly: they can raid us long before we are capable of doing that
(gyathaar ancestors did that around the 9th century )

I don't very much like the idea of detouring to wc and/or monarchy. For the laurels we have to get astronomy asap and possibly even amphibious war. Getting WC and revolting to monarchy will be a heavy burden on that goal.
I'm not convinced either that the barbs will be an early powerful threat. Because it could easely mean a team will be gone within a few weeks (and were's the fun in that). No, I much rather think they are a tough opponent when attacked after astronomy.

My strategy would be to go for the settler factory. It can be operational after 27 turns (in 2670BC) and thus give us 13 settlers before 1000BC. I am however very worried that the slingshot might be lost to the barbarians. So research could be writing, philosophy.

I haven't played any AW games. But in principle WW doesn't really effect phony wars. It gets serious when troops are in eachothers territory and we're loosing units or cities.

civ3 info center said:

Republics and democracies now have "war weariness" instead of individual units causing unhappiness in their home cities. You get war weariness unhappiness if your units are in enemy territory for a long time. Its worse in Democracy than in Republic.

Click to expand...

But such a situation could still be millennia away.

On general I would say: we need to spread like rabbits. Have some productive cities near the capitol and ICSing the rest. Overrunning everything on our starting continent with whatever units are available. Then set the ICS-towns to scientists and let the productive cities build up an army of cavalry. Cavalry (in numbers) can take the barbs as long as they haven't infantry.

Some stray remarks:
Though the pyramids are powerful I wouldn't worry much about wonders
We should try to do some serious leaderfishing when clearing our continent. Armies are very helpful in C3C. (Of course max 2 units in the armies). And preferly no units at all in the armies until cavalry.

On Abegweits question on the special barrb units:
I have no idea what kind of special units are likely nor on how many different species are possible. It's hard to plan a strategy in advance on those kind of units. Maybe we just have to get creative when we encounter them .

edit:
@abegweit: what's RaR

Reporting for duty. I am looking forward to play with this team again.

Welcome Redbad and Paul.

I agree on settling our continent asap. Everything said about the SF I think.

AW ? If the barbies are not on our continent we can handle them like Gandhi last game. Republic will be no big problem in the beginning.

My thoughts on the barbies ? I expect them to have all the unique units.

@Redbad

Re: WW. The main reason why AW players go Monarchy is because you get WW points from being attacked, whether you win or not.

Assuming that, as you think, the barbs are at most a minor problem at the beginning, I fully agree that getting an SF and Republic ASAP is the way to go. Your observation about how the staff would not want a team to be eliminated right at the start is quite convincing. In view of this, I have changed my mind and agree with your plan, at least for now. Can you post your opening sequence for discussion?

As for the question of which government or which slingshot, we don't have to decide this immediately. Research writing on max and have a pow-wow once we get it.

I still think that the barb capital is on our continent and that they have a good home elsewhere as well. We shall see.

Question: what is the setting for the real barbs? Either Raging or Sedentary, I assume. To know we would have to open the save.

Re: RaR (Rise and Rule). This is a Civ3 mod pack designed by DocT and others. The barbs get 4-attack units nearly from the beginning. Very annoying.

signing in... give me a chance to read all the posts before this... im sure we will have a great game

Opening sequence:

turn00 4000BC settler1 -> A, worker1 -> B
turn01 3950BC settler1 London: warrior, writing; worker1 i
turn05 3750BC worker1 -> C
turn06 3700BC London warrior -> worker; worker1 i
(warrior1 can scout until turn 16, then best MPing London)
turn10 3500BC worker1 -> D
turn11 3459BC London worker -> granary; worker1 m; worker2 -> B
turn12 3400BC worker2 -> E
turn13 3350BC worker2 c
turn17 3150BC worker1 -> F; worker2 i
turn18 3100BC worker1 -> B
turn19 2050BC worker1 r
turn21 2950BC worker2 r
turn22 2900BC worker1 m
turn24 2800BC worker2 -> B m
turn27 2670BC London granary -> settler

Of course in meantime London has to be MMed to working the best tiles. (If necessary I can give that too) Btw. I didn't use the clam in my research. Id they don't provide a shield then both workers have to mine F from turn 27 to turn 29.

Must rush to dinner now

Abegweit said:

Note, though, that the settler factory is available immediately; it does not have to wait for Harbours. iPlain + mBG + mBG + iDeer + iWheat = 5f + 6s @ size 5. Together with a second iPlain, this is enough for a SF.

Click to expand...

Doh - thats what I get for commenting when I have only 10 min access to the computer during son's LAN party whilst they go demolish pizzas - we dont start with MM do we?

My memory fails. What does a clam do? +1f, +1s would be enough to get a settler factory w/o the plains and I thought it was at least that good.

Click to expand...

Oysters give bonus 2f, 1c - same as fish
The significance of this is we can work an oyster tile if we are going to get a shield over-run allowing extra commerce

I am absolutely sure (convince me otherwise) that the "barbs" are actually a real civ in locked war with everyone on the planet and that they are everywhere. This would be a fairly good approximation of Civ4 barbs. I can't see how Gyathaar could pull this stunt using the Civ3 editor unless this was the case. My guess is that their capital is on our continent but that they have at least one city elsewhere. Probably several.

Click to expand...

see latest clarification in maintenance thread - they are a civ like any other AI only have strong UU. I'd be fairly certain they are on a different continent with us unable to reach them until astronomy, but there's a chance they may be able to reach us before then.

We might also want to think Monarchy but that decision doesn't have to be made immediately. I just want say that I am of the opinion that WW will be bad. In the last game I argued for Republic despite the known locked war. This time I don't believe the opponent can be contained so easily.

Click to expand...

I vote for republic for the commerce boost, although with research possibly not needed for so long (I'm guessing here - ???marines) monarchy is certainly not out of the quetion

We need to get defence. The best defence is offence. WC first?

Click to expand...

I would vote for slingshot first, with contacts we should be able to trade for 1st tier techs


Another thought
There are 2 types of barbs - the barbarian civ and the usual barbs. Note comment in settings

AlanH said:

Barbarians - Non-standard

Click to expand...

Can we expect some surprises from the "usual" barbs

@ Redbad
have you factored in getting irrigation to game?

Andronicus said:

see latest clarification in maintenance thread - they are a civ like any other AI only have strong UU. I'd be fairly certain they are on a different continent with us unable to reach them until astronomy, but there's a chance they may be able to reach us before then.

Click to expand...

Another thought
There are 2 types of barbs - the barbarian civ and the usual barbs. Note comment in settings

Can we expect some surprises from the "usual" barbs

Click to expand...

Makes sense. A barb civ on another continent. Surprising barbs on our own. This combo would prevent them from destroying us (per Redbad's observation). They might well take out our granary though.

You guys have convinced me that Republic is the way to go. Usual barbs don't cause WW. I still think we need some early defence however. We have alpha to trade. What about an archer or a spear (whichever we can get) before the granary?

I've done some analysis of opening moves
The problem with settling 1NE is the 2fpt for first 10 turns until we get expansion. This results in slow initial growth and delay in being able to utilise high food tiles. In addition there is the need to irrigate the tile south of F in Redbad's plan before can irrigate game.

The obvious alternative is moving to that tile 1S of F (only 1 extra move) allowing immediate use of wheat and able to benefit from irrigating wheat straight away. Result is much more rapid growth. Additional benefit is irrigation can pass through the city to game tile resulting in sig less worker turns to set up SF
The downsides of this option are slower initial production working non-shield producing wheat resulting in later warrior and therefore later contacts / exploration and inability to utilise commerce rich bonus tiles on the coast. Of course these can be used by subsequent cities and anyway are unlikely to see much use if we settle 1NE until after we have finished with our SF

The only real downside to your suggestion is the extra turn to settling. After all, we don't HAVE to use the wheat if we don't want to. What's more we get another strong tile available immediately - the forest deer. It's a little too Saturday night here (read: ) for me to work out the right sequence but it seems to me that, if we stick to the deer and an mBG, we might have the granary finished before London reaches size three at which point we build the second worker, followed by the defender I've been plumping for.

Interesting exchange between AH and NP on the maintenance thread. While Alan downplays the significance of this, it is worthwhile to note that this piece of boilerplate was NOT in the corresponding thread for SGOTM9.

Surprising barbs indeed!!

Settling at A we can access neither wheat nor game until expansion
On my calculations settling south of F allows for more rapid growth and that first warrior is produced turn 8 (2 turns later), the first worker on turn 12 (1 turn later). We can spit out a 20 shield unit on turn 16 and granary on turn 28 (just before hitting size 6 with all tiles ready for SF including roaded for extra commerce.
Of course my calculations may be up the creek so please check

Turn 0 4000BC settler S (busts more fog), worker E
Turn 1 3950BC settler E, worker -> wheat
Turn 2 3900BC settle London, works BG 2 turns, then iWheat, worker irrigates
Turn 5 3750BC worker roads
Turn 8 3600BC London warrior -> worker2 (works game 2 turns, then BG 2 turns); worker1 -> London
Turn 9 3550BC worker1 -> game
Turn 10 3500BC worker1 chop
Turn 12 3400BC London worker (size 1 works iWheat) -> 20shield unit (archer?); worker2 -> F
Turn 13 3350BC London size 2 (works BG 2 turns, then forest 1 turn, then iGame 1 turn in addition to iWheat) ; worker 2 mines
Turn 14 3300BC worker 1 irrigates
Turn 16 London builds 20sh unit -> granary
Turn 17 worker 1 roads
Turn 18 London size 3 5fpt (iWh, iGame, mBG - completes this turn)
Turn 19 worker 2 roads
Turn 20 worker1 -> B
Turn 21 worker 1 mines
Turn 22 worker 2 -> D
Turn 23 worker 2 roads (only need 2 BGs mined for SF)
Turn 26 worker 2 -> A, London grows size 5
Turn 27 worker 1 roads, worker 2 irrigates
Turn 28 London (size 5 + 15/20) builds granary -> settler ( restrict growth to allow build and growth to size 7 to coincide in 4 turns - some shield wastage inevitable)
Turn 30 worker 2 roads and worker 1 free to road to second city
Turn 33 first settler and London operating as size 5->7 4 turn SF

Note - cannot compare dates with Redbad's timeframe above ass it doesnot include irrigating tile south of F

Andronicus said:

@ Redbad
have you factored in getting irrigation to game?

Click to expand...

Sure, I've irrigated B first to bring water to the game. Later on I mined B.

I'm now investigating your plan. It's much better: In my second try I'm not only getting the SF running 1 turn earlier (2710BC) but also have I got an extra warrior at that time. The warrior saves an awful lot of commerce by MPing London too.

@Andronicus
I tried to follow your opening but I didn't succeed. You're having the irrigating taking 3 turns, when it should take 4 turns.

Here's another opening based on Andronicus idea of settling south of F.


legenda: wt1 : first citizen of London working tile
1.02 : size London: 1 citizen plus 2 food in the bin
-> F : moving to tile F
c = chop, i = irrigate, m = mine, r = road