SGOTM 10 - Team Liz

[Andronicus]

@Andronicus
I tried to follow your opening but I didn't succeed. You're having the irrigating taking 3 turns, when it should take 4 turns.

Ack, I must've been playing with industrious workers recently - Ill have to re-do it now

 

[Andronicus]

@ Redbad - I like your latest one even better - running size 4-6SF allows for less pressure on the lux slider, making up for lack of roading commerce which we would not have time to do when first on tiles (I have strong adversion to moving a worker off a tile without roading it, but in this setup I think you have got it right)

 

[Abegweit]

Edit: Post deleted. I will be coming up with a new opening sequence shortly.

@mods. How do I delete something from the uploads folder. Can I?

 

[Redbad]

Edit: Post deleted.

To late, I've already seen it And I must say I liked it. It's less running around with the workers.

I agree with your remark that I should irrgate A at the end instead of mining F.

About your post: maybe the next could be an idea:
In 2670BC you start on the settler and London is at size 5.10 When you start using the forests at that moment you can grow to 6 in 4 turns and also get the settler out in 4 turns. That would run the SF at sizes 4 ot 6. The settler is out 1 turn later then in my sequence but we've got an extra warrior. So I would say it's a good trade.

I apoligize to our teammates for commenting a not visible sequence

 

[Abegweit]

Now that I have gotten over my namby-pamby fear of barbs, here's another one which gets the first settlers out on turns 27 and 35. At this point the factory is functional. There are zero wasted moves



For the record, here are my two previous attempts. Each one has one less warrior in the build than the previous one

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Ab37.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Ab48.JPG

Edit: fixed broken link.

Edit2: there's a small error in the sequence as above. After irrigating the wheat, the worker should build the road and then move, not the other way around.

 

[juballs2001]

oh you mathmaticians and your number crunching...


just tell who to kill and i will kill them!

 

[AlanH]

Edit: Post deleted. I will be coming up with a new opening sequence shortly.

@mods. How do I delete something from the uploads folder. Can I?

If you used the standard Upload Files link at the bottom of the page then you'll need to ask Thunderfall to delete the file from the Uploads 11 folder. He may or may not bother to delete it, depending on current pressure for space.

If you attached it to a post then you can delete it by editing he post and removing the attachment. I think you can also manage your attached files from within that dialog.

 

[Redbad]

Well I don't know Abegweit

In this sequence you get settlers at 2710BC and 2390BC. (You left out 2510BC in your sequence)
In the previous you could get settlers at 2510BC and 2350BC.
Of course now the first settler is 5 turns faster and the others 1 turn faster. But there are costs also. Now you've got 1 warrior and previous three. That means less research (less MPing) and later contacts (no exploring warrior).

I'm afraid I'm slightly in favour of your previous sequence.

btw. there's a typo at 3050BC: working tiles are: B, E and forest

Other comments:
At 2900BC worker1 goes to A to improve. But this tile is far from being used. An irrigated A is the same as an unimproved D. If worker1 would go to C and help worker2, C is irrigated 1 turn earlier. Then worker1 can road C and worker2 mine/road D. Then worker1 can irr/road A.

@juballs: don't you think this is an exclellent way to pass the time until the game is out.

 

[AlanH]

@juballs: don't you think this is an exclellent way to pass the time until the game is out.

The game was "out" about 14 hours ago

 

[Redbad]

Oh help, what's the schema, who's doing the kick off.

 

[Abegweit]

It's not number crunching. It's just grunt work and it's essential to get off to a good start.

Each one of these sequences has pluses and minuses. Let's look at each one.

1. Redbad's: Gets out exploring earlier than I do in any of my mine. Less money spent on the granary.

2. My first: makes better use of the workers and gets three warriors. Redbad's proposed change makes four. However, this is the slowest of them all.

3. My second. Gets the settlers out faster than the first, at the same time as Redbad's. Only two warriors though.

4. My third. Wastes no worker moves at all and gets the first settler out a full three turns faster. However there is only one warrior and the settler will have to plunge out into the unknown w/o any knowledge of the world at all. A true farmer's gambit

IMNSHO, my second one is definitely superior to either my first or Redbad's. WRT Redbad, it is more efficient. WRT my first, it is faster. However, I think the third is the best of all. The improved worker efficiency is nice but the real advantage is three more turns to a settler. This is simply huge. If nothing else turns up, the tile north of A looks like a pretty good spot for a town. It will eventually get the fish and immediately has the oyster It can work A for all but turns 33 and 34, substituting the oyster for those two. By the time London needs A back again, it will have its own iPlain.

 

[Abegweit]

@Redbad

Re: choice of sequence, see my previous post. I believe you are talking about my first attempt and the second is clearly superior. See also why I think the third is best of all. Getting settlers out ASAP is the only thing that counts. The only thing. Food is power.

Re: who kicks off? The only question is which sequence to use. It makes little difference who runs the mouse so long as he follows the script we decide on.

 

[Redbad]

I2. My first: makes better use of the workers and gets three warriors. Redbad's proposed change makes four. However, this is the slowest of them all..

My proposed change wasn't getting an extra warrior but getting the settler 1 turn sooner and operate the SF at sizes 4 to 6.

If nothing else turns up, the tile north of A looks like a pretty good spot for a town. It will eventually get the fish and immediately has the oyster It can work A for all but turns 33 and 34, substituting the oyster for those two. By the time London needs A back again, it will have its own iPlain

It's a little premature to discuss the placing of the next city. Culture expansion will let us see more. And of course there need to be some interesting things left to discuss after the first 21 turns.

You could very well be right on the last sequence being best. IMO you may do the kick off. Then nobody else has to make your moves . It's a bit worrying though that we haven't heard from Paul until now.

 

[Abegweit]

It's a little premature to discuss the placing of the next city.

I don't think it's premature to talk city placement at this point. It's comfortng to know that there already is a decent site. Of course, you're right that culture border may reveal something better. So much the better if it does.

And of course there need to be some interesting things left to discuss after the first 21 turns.

Assuming no surprises, there will be absolutely nothing to discuss at that point. The first decision not in the script comes at turn 27.

You could very well be right on the last sequence being best. IMO you may do the kick off. Then nobody else has to make your moves

OK. I'd like to least hear from Andronicus before doing so though. For the reason you point out, I think I should actually take it through to the moment the second settler is built, unless something surprising happens. It's not there's a huge amount of fun in it, after all. There's less decisions to make than there would be in the first twenty using your sequence. There are only two objectives: a) find a place for the first city. b) do enough exploring to get a few more city sites. At least one more anyway.

 

[Redbad]

Assuming no surprises, there will be absolutely nothing to discuss at that point. The first decision not in the script comes at turn 27.

I think you're mixing operational decisions and strategy planning up. Of course there could be enough to discuss. It all depends on what revealed and what's encountered. Regardless of the moves we agree on.

Further more I'm not in favour of doing more turns by the first player then 21. There can at any time happen something enexpected. The person that is playing at that time can react and diverge from the strategy if he thinks it's wise to do so. I think your approach is a little rigid.

 

[Abegweit]

No problem. The first decision does come at turn 27, although we'll know as much at turn 12 as we do then. We can discuss that after 21, I suppose. I propose that you play second since you seem comfortable with the script...

BTW, in RBE 13, Sirian started like this. In his write up, he says

Now... how to begin? A farmer's gambit. No, not the namby-pamby "I'm building settlers, this must be a farmer's gambit" use of the term that has sprung up. When I coined the term Farmer's Gambit, it had a specific definition: no military. A settler BEFORE the first military unit, that's a farmer's gambit. No exploration, none, nada, zippo: that's a farmer's gambit, sending your unescorted settlers out into the fog to grab whatever lands are next in your path.

 

[Abegweit]

Double post.

I propose the following roster order:

Abegweit
Redbad
Juballs11
Andronicus
Paul#42

I will play the first 21 turns. Redbad then plays until the second settler is built. I believe that would be an additional 14. Normal 10 turn rounds thereafter. Alternately each player can do eleven until the years are straightened up.

 

[Abegweit]

The person that is playing at that time can react and diverge from the strategy if he thinks it's wise to do so. I think your approach is a little rigid.

Not rigid. If 54 barbs suddenly appear at our gates, it's obvious that it would be suicide to continue along this path. However. If something unexpected happens and the player thinks we should deviate from the script, it's time to stop for a pow-wow. Tactical decisions are up to the player. Players should never make strategic decisions on their own. Strategic decisions are team decisions. This should be a general rule. If we have made a team decision about strategy for a round, that decision should not be changed w/o input from the other players. I get quite annoyed at players who unilaterally change team decisions and I really don't want to see it happen. Ever.

Please.

Let's take another example.

As I understand it, we have agreed to go for the Republic slingshot. In view of this we will be making a beeline for Writing right from the start, followed by CoL. However it is possible that, at Emperor, this is not the best choice. Going straight to Philo might be better. The final decision about this must be made when Writing is learned. If the player thinks that things have changed since the beginning of his turns and that the team decision is wrong, he needs to stop and ask the rest of us what should be done. Furthermore, the team should choose which free tech we get once Philo comes in and what to research afterwards. In fact, all research decisions should be made by the team as a whole. No exceptions.

In our last game, the person with the mouse (no longer here) made the decision on his own. I think he was wrong. Whether I am right or wrong about this is irrelevant. The point is that I never got a chance to express my opinion.

 

[markh]

I propose the following roster order:

Abegweit
Redbad
Juballs11
Andronicus
Paul#42

I want to play, too.

 

[Paul#42]

Paul reporting for duty
Hello everyone. I'm glad to be part of the gang.

Looks like you guys already did some nice simulations. I hope to catch up during this day's time.

It's a bit worrying though that we haven't heard from Paul until now.

Thanx for the flowers
It takes some time to read all this stuff. Apologies for wasting my weekend with family issues

EDIT: Have you guys also in calculated losing some (seafaring trait's) commerce when moving inland? In the expected science game this might be worth considering. Not being able to send a curragh however won't be a issue until 2nd or 3rd town is founded.