The Emperor Masters' Challenge 3 (on Warlords)

Thanks for the detailed analysis, Uncle JJ. We are short on cottages mainly because we've been whipping. We've stopped for a while to allow growth after the influx of happiness resources and HR, but I imagine we'd be whipping again soon for maces. We should try and get some cottages up in Mecca, I agree.

I was wary of losing our focus on the trade routes, but I also thought we need to take into account the demands of the game. But maybe you're right. Maybe we should leave winning the Liberalism race for the next game (which will be a scientific one). I wonder how soon we can get to Astronomy in that case.

I agree about Medina. It should've been built nearer to the clams Dumb AI. But it's a holy city so I guess it's worth keeping.

I don't mind you giving your comments at all. You give a refreshing take on things and reminded me of the playing philosophy of "the mission or nothing", which we adopted in the previous game. Who cares how the game turns out as long as we stick faithfully to our stated objectives. If we win, the strategy is good. If we don't, it probably isn't a viable one.

Anyway, still more votes for CS. Does nobody like Optics?

aelf said:

I was wary of losing our focus on the trade routes, but I also thought we need to take into account the demands of the game. But maybe you're right. Maybe we should leave winning the Liberalism race for the next game (which will be a scientific one). I wonder how soon we can get to Astronomy in that case.

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If your not going for Liberalism, I say instead of using your GS for Education, Use it to lightbulb Philosophy instead and Switch Civics to Pacifism and Once you get CS Bureaucracy

With your Capital having NE and Pacifism it's gonna be pumping out Great People points like MAD! and you can trade Philosophy to the AIs on the other Continent, Could even potentially Bribe the AI on the other Continent into War to slow down their tech rate.

If you Ignore the Liberalism Race but still intend to go after Astronomy. Once You've Researched Education and Printing Press you can lightbulb Astronomy with a GS or two, although it's not as fast as the Liberalism Slignshot, it's the Surest way.

If you end up with a GM you can lightbulb Economics (free market) and or Coporation (free trade route and Wall Street) but obsoletes great lighthouse.

Great Scientist:

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
The Wheel
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy

Hi Aelf

I'd go for CS. You may risk losing the circumnavigation bonus but that is not so essential, nor is it part of the theme of the game. More important is to win the race to Liberalism and snag astronomy.

Furthermore, I would still encourage tech trading with Brennus. Don't worry if he can build crossbows. By the time you are ready to attack him you will have trebs. I can't see you attacking him before you get (or are very close to getting) astronomy. You have currently have 20 commerce/turn in Washington alone through trade routes with Brennus, and this will only increase with a harbour and castle. Can you really afford to jeopardise this income when you can trade with no one else? Every turn you can save to get to liberalism first will be worth it. Tech trading with Brennus will help you get there, even if it involves trading military techs.

I scrolled through your event log. No GG has been born in a distant land. This is not a good sign. If the other civs are peacefully teching, you may not get to Liberalism first. However, in my experience civs often like to go for the free GM from Economics before getting to Liberalism. If you are only racing against one civ, this may be in your favour.

So CS first. That will speed up research for optics. It will also help with the long build queue in Washington (see UncleJJs post). I'd build a harbour there first to speed up the research - but do the maths first to check that it will have greater impact than a monastery.

As for what to do with the GS, you should think hard about that one. UncleJJ has a good point about a possible academy there. Not only will you increasing your teching rate, but you will get to CS faster, shaving off a good number of turns to Liberalism. If you choose to build the academy, I'd even consider hiring a scientist in Washington and hope to get another GS to burn on Education. If the gambit pulls off, Liberalism will probably be yours. But SHOULD you actually build the Academy? I guess there are two questions to ask: (1) how badly do you want Liberalism first? and (2) how long will it take to get to Liberalism if you build the academy compared to lighbulbing part of Education?

Anyway, some interesting decisions to make. Thanks for playing for us! Long live Aelf!

A couple of good ideas here. Lightbulbing Philosophy is indeed something to consider that we've overlooked. But we must think carefully about running Pacifism. It will help us generate lots of GPs, but at the cost of slowing down our normal research. Sure, we can use the GPs to lightbulb techs for instant beakers. The problem is we can't be sure which GPs we'll get so we won't have as much control on the direction our research takes.

I think the choice now is between lightbulbing Philosophy (also needed for Liberalism) and building an Academy. We should use our GS now since by the time we get to Education our next GP would've been born, and that may very well be another GS.

Godel is so far the only one who has advocated trading with Brennus. My first instinct was also to make the trade, since we haven't encountered a continental neighbour who could really impede our expansion in the series. So what if Brennus has xbows or even maces of his own to defend against our macemen? Kublai had his in the first Challenge, and look at what happened to him. The weakness of the AI is its inability to employ its troops properly. So given tech parity and plenty of siege weapons on our side, the AI would normally lose. Of course, it would be easier for us if Brennus didn't have tech parity, but right now we also need to consider the unknown competitors across the ocean.

aelf said:

Thanks for the detailed analysis, Uncle JJ. We are short on cottages mainly because we've been whipping.

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On a general note, I have found this to be the true price of whipping, not the measely 10 turns of unhappiness. If you're running a cottage economy you need citizens to work your cottages, but if you're constantly whipping them away, well... at a certain point you get into a law of diminishing returns. After I have a bit of basic infrastructure in place, I stop whipping in my best commerce cities.

Sisiutil said:

On a general note, I have found this to be the true price of whipping, not the measely 10 turns of unhappiness. If you're running a cottage economy you need citizens to work your cottages, but if you're constantly whipping them away, well... at a certain point you get into a law of diminishing returns. After I have a bit of basic infrastructure in place, I stop whipping in my best commerce cities.

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Also, I find Normal speed to be a little too fast for a normal game. On Epic, I would've gotten marketplaces way before 1000AD. In this game, we still have none. Very unrealistic too, if you think about it (people never had a marketplace for the past few millenia ). I think this is the main reason why we haven't gotten the chance to work cottages much by this time. There was simply not enough time to have recovered from our early whipping phase.

Anyway, I think I'll play the next round later. I have time today.

Ok, I am taking on the vote against CS. Although being a warmongerer, I think it isn't time for war with brennus. You have some building up to do. Maces aren't needed directly if you are not going to war right now. Sure the resistance will be higher in the future, but I think the potential trade on the other continent combined with the circum bonus considering a potential invasion seems more benificial at this moment. Saladin won't trade anymore (prob.) and brennus either after declaring war.

Defently pop Philosophy. It's great trade value and you need it for liberalisme anyway. The extra religion is nice for extra monasteries too. Use the next GS (meaning you should aim for one) for education. Maybe you can squeese another one in for a academy first.

Optics isn't very costly, so it should take just a few turns, i am guessing 6-8 turns. prechop a caravel, set sail asap and trade away. At that point you should have CS researched and building maces. Attack brennus when you met some others you can declare war without penalty bonus since they haven't met Brennus yet.

I still think winning the liberalism race and netting astronomy is THE way to go if this is a trade strategy. It might also be the way to go for a science game, but open borders with a free market and intercontinental trade isn't a option imo... If you make sure you get another 1 or 2 scientist you should be able to win the race. But tech trading takes a crucial part there. You need to focus and fill in the blancs with the help of others. Usualy you can let the AI research the banking-economics path for you.

If we get Philosophy will Pacifism be able to do much for us in the near future? We don't seem to have a lot of spare food to run specialists.

The major gain would be +18 GPP in Washington and +3 for any extra specialists we run during the period we run Pacifism. We would lose 36 GPP during each of the 2 turns of anarchy switching civics in and out, so we would have to run it for a long time to make a significant gain like an extra GP.

Medina has 3 GPP at present but little spare food to run more specialists. It also needs Judaism for Pacifism to work although that would be useful anyway.

Other cities (Boston or Mecca perhaps have the food if they were farmed) would have to run specialists for many turn to produce an extra GP and that will cost a lot of food. It take two food feed a specialist and he gives +6 GPP. To produce a GP we'll need to beat Washington which with Pacificism will be producing 54 GPP / turn. Without doing the detailed mathematics if a city ran 4 specialists, say 2 scientists and 2 merchants giving 24 GPP / turn and eating 8 food / turn, it would probably have to aim for the 11th GP we produce costing 1200 GPP. So that would mean running Pacifism for approximately 50 turns and cost a total of 400 food. That food could make us a lot of maces or trebuchets using the whip...

The economics of running food specialists will change if we have to adopt Mercantilism, which is very bad for our trade routes but we might have no choice if we go to war with Brennus. A free specialist from Mercantilsim reduces the food cost of getting the GPPs. Once we acquire Representation that also changes the economics of running a specialist since 2 food will give 6 commerce equivalent (beakers or gold) as well as 6 GPP / turn. I'd say we should consider running Pacificism later but now it seems to be not that good a deal.

voek said:

Ok, I am taking on the vote against CS. Although being a warmongerer, I think it isn't time for war with brennus. You have some building up to do. Maces aren't needed directly if you are not going to war right now. Sure the resistance will be higher in the future, but I think the potential trade on the other continent combined with the circum bonus considering a potential invasion seems more benificial at this moment. Saladin won't trade anymore (prob.) and brennus either after declaring war.

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CS is more for Bureaucracy than for maces right now. Uncle JJ seems have suggested that Bureaucracy is in fact in line with our trade route strategy, since our capital is the biggest source of trade commerce and +50% to that would be good.

voek said:

Defently pop Philosophy. It's great trade value and you need it for liberalisme anyway. The extra religion is nice for extra monasteries too. Use the next GS (meaning you should aim for one) for education. Maybe you can squeese another one in for a academy first.

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Taoism has been founded, and I reckon the cost of researching Philsophy would decrease as more civs discover it. I think Education is probably a better tech to lighbulb, but that can wait till the next GS. Building an Academy now would actually be synergistic with Bureaucracy and our trade route focus.

voek said:

I still think winning the liberalism race and netting astronomy is THE way to go if this is a trade strategy. It might also be the way to go for a science game, but open borders with a free market and intercontinental trade isn't a option imo... If you make sure you get another 1 or 2 scientist you should be able to win the race. But tech trading takes a crucial part there. You need to focus and fill in the blancs with the help of others. Usualy you can let the AI research the banking-economics path for you.

Click to expand...

Hmm... Not sure I understand what you mean. Winning the Liberalism race is a good thing as it would probably mean a tech lead for us and not some AI. But failing that I think we can research Astronomy normally quite well, though I agree with focusing on the Education route when we're aiming for Liberalism.

Ok if Taosime is found the value of Philosophy greatly decreases. I don't lightbulb it for Pacifism btw, but for the trade value most of the time. Esp. at Immortal it a great way to get somewhat back in track.

Anyway I understand the benefits of Bureaucracy for the capital, but I am focusing on trade with the others. No discussion needed, the boost will be great. I must admit I am preaching this path to increase discussion and weighting the pro's and con's.

For example, the boost of bureaucracy netting a lot of extra commerce for the extra 8 turns you will have researched it sooner, should be weightened against the earlier contact with the others opening better trade deals. Remember one *free* tech from trade would neglact the extra commerce from CS first. You can't compare the number, neither is the optics path a garantee for better trade, but when it does, it might pay off much more then earlier CS.

The maces part I already explained.

About Astronomy researching the old way, sure it's ok. But the point should be free market ASAP, imho. Liberalism path will make sure you will.

I think the GS has to be used for an academy. This is not a normal game where we can produce a GS easily and under controlled conditions. Washington will produce a GP every 15 turns + 3 extra per GP, so roughly in 15, 18, 21 turns and so on. But we only have a chance of producing another GS rather than the other 3 GP options and we might be unlucky. I would not mind lightbulbing a second GS if we are lucky enough to get one, but this one should be used for an academy. The earlier we get the academy the sooner we get the benefit, and the faster we research Bureaucracy the sooner we get its benefit. Besides, I have an aversion to GPs sitting around doing nothing and increasing our upkeep costs

An academy in Washington is synergistic with the strategy of making a powerful trading city. The high commerce boosted by Bureaucracy needs good research multipliers to reach its full potential. As aelf has said this game is as much about exploring that trade route strategy as winning.

If we can research Engineering before attacking Brennus we get a substantial advantage from being able to use pikemen and trebuchets which could be key troops. Equally important our troops will be able to move quicker over our own roads and with our spread out shape it is possible for Brennus to cause us significant problems over a wide front. Finally, an early war with Brennus ruins our trade route strategy and will cost us a lot of research potential. If we can delay it until we meet other civs then although we might suffer a diplomatic penalty we won't suffer a trade loss. The loss of trade routes from diplomactic and military action seems to be a major limitation of this trade route strategy and makes it risky even if lucrative.

If we declare war on Brennus we might be able to open trade routes with him afterwards since we only get a -3 diplomatic hit, versus the big + we get from being the same religion. Then we'd only lose the foriegn trade routes for a period and that could be an acceptable cost depending on what we gain. We should use a decisive military advantage if we get one over him.

Edited again : to add last para

UncleJJ said:

Besides, I have an aversion to GPs sitting around doing nothing and increasing our upkeep costs

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I refer to this thread for a refreshing way of using GP's.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=190690&page=3

Not directly suggesting to use GP's this way, just to show there is more to it. For me it was a eye opener.

voek said:

I refer to this thread for a refreshing way of using GP's.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=190690&page=3

Not directly suggesting to use GP's this way, just to show there is more to it. For me it was a eye opener.

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I have been reading the thread. He had a strategy of generating multiple GS in several food rich cities using a SE with Ghandi who is philosophical and spiritual. A central part of his research strategy is to lightbulb key techs and trade. It would be hard to imagine a more different game.

I have used a similar strategy myself with Alexander although not lightbulbing as many techs on the way to Liberalism. It will be interesting to see the long term consequences of using all the GS as lightbulbs. Each GP produced makes the next more expensive in GPPs and the tech rate from that source will slow appreciably.

right!
don't compare oranges and hammers (I know it's apples, but here the difference is so huge it didn't do the trick!).

We're industrious, not philosophical. Go for forges and wonders.
The GPP from wonders are doubled with pacifism, just as good as those from specialists. Pacifism is still a good civic.
But CS is just better right now.
I'd go for the academy too.

It wasn't meant to compare or use that strategy, like a said before. More to show there isn't always one best choise and it isn;t always bad to have GP's sitting around and not using them right away.

Anyway I am preaching earlier techtrade with foreign AI's using the optics path and not preaching adopting pacifism and spamming GP's. Just trying to make people see it isn't only about numbers, like the extra commerce from bureaucracy a few turns faster.

Well I guess the decision was prob. already made and everybody wants CS, but at least people thought about it a little more.

Round 7: 1050AD - 1290AD

In this round, we began looking for answers to the crucial mid-game questions: Do we try to win the Liberalism race? How do we compete against the unknown competitors across the ocean? Can we get the circumnavigation bonus in case it turns out that we are going for domination? How soon can we establish lucrative intercontinental trade routes?

First, we had to decide what to research next and how to use our available GS. Because of this game's focus on trade routes because of and long-term considerations, I decided that we would research CS next. The capital is usually the most important source of trade route income, thanks to its inherent +25% bonus, and Washington fits the bill. Bureaucracy's +50% bonus to commerce would be synergistic with the heavy trade route focus of our capital, with its Great Lighthouse and ToA. Bureaucracy would also benefit us by speeding up our regular research. With this decision in mind, building an Academy in Washington with the GS seemed to be natural thing to do. A further +50% to science combined with Bureaucracy would significantly increase Washington's beaker output.

So that's what we did with our GS:



I like to lightbulb, but I guess this time other considerations take precedence.

By the way, I decided not to trade Machinery and Compass to Brennus for Feudalism and HBR, although it would cut down the research time of CS by a few turns. After some thinking, I decided that at this stage of the game and with all the economic builds waiting to be built, whipping or producing a large number of units does not fit into the picture. The later Brennus gets Machinery, the easier it would probably be to defeat him later on, and hence the fewer units we probably have to build.

Meanwhile, on the battlefront, our stack turned back from the heavily defended Baghdad and headed for the new Najran, finding it lightly defended:



Great. Time to try and get our warlord chariot promoted to level 6 Best of all, the city had 3 workers hiding inside. Three free workers!

A turn later, an Arab longbow headed in the direction of the besieged city to reinforce it. But, unfortunately for Saladin, it was too late. The city fell at no cost to us (our attacking cat got lucky and retreated):



I decided to keep the city since it could work a gem mine in the future and would provide a cultural link to Baghdad when we capture it later on.

And our chariot got promoted:



Now we have a level 6 Medic III warlord unit, IMO the single handiest unit you can get (enables Heroic Epic, West Point and provides super healing for units on the same tile and on adjacent tiles).

Once more, with nothing else to gain from the war, I sued for peace:



Unfortunately, Saladin had no gold and refused to give us his techs. But waiting for those to change might take too long and WW was beginning to set in, so I signed the treaty.

Shortly after, Brennus came to us with this deal:



With the gold thrown in (I checked, it was all the gold available for trading) it was not a bad deal. I agreed.

On the following turn, we discovered CS. Time to make a civic switch:



The effects were appreciable. The next tech we researched was Optics, in a bid to win the circumnavigation race. Bureaucracy helped cut its research time by 2 turns.

Meanwhile, we've been running 1 or 2 scientists in Washington to help us generate another GP earlier (and get a GS in particular so that we can lightbulb Education). The next GP was indeed born soon enough, but it was not a GS:



You know, when you really want something you always get something else instead The good news is he can lightbulb Engineering, which is useful to us in a few ways. The bad news is we might not be able to lightbulb Education, and we may just lose the Liberalism race because of that.

Anyway, Optics was discovered on the next turn. Washington was promptly set to build a caravel as quickly as possible (3 turns), while another was whipped in Philadelphia:



The city didn't have many good tiles to work anyway. And this way, the caravel from Washington could head west while the caravel from Philadelphia could head east, which is the best way to try and win the circumnavigation race. And I took it a step further.

On continents, I often see at least one continent being near enough to an ice cap to block a sea route in either the north or the south. Our own continent is placed that way in this game. Therefore, if you make both caravels travel along the same latitude, you may find the way blocked. So, I made the Washington head towards the northwest and the Philadelphia towards the southeast until they could see the respective ice caps. That way, we could travel along both the northern and the southern ice caps to reduce the risk of being blocked.

In New York, meanwhile, growth had stopped to a crawl:



The early game boost of the pigs had begun to lose steam. New York needs an extensive chain-farming project from the west for further growth. Medina could use one too from the east. I promptly started planning for such projects and moving workers to begin working on them. The extra workers from capturing Khurasan proved handy.

[to be continued in the next post...]

[continued from previous post]

Brennus came to us with another deal:



I agreed. Anything that could possibly help us win the circumnavigation race.

By the way, after discovering Optics we continued along the Education route and researched Paper. After Paper, we had to make a detour to research Philosophy, which is needed for Liberalism. I saved Education for later, in case we're in time to get a GS to lightbulb it.

Then, suddenly, we met the first overseas civ:



Why is it that in every Challenge the other continent is always more advanced when we establish contact? I guess part of the reason is we've been getting the three-civ continent. That's why I used to play 8 civs on a standard continents map. It's just a lot fairer with 4 and 4, although of course the map generator often gave 5 and 3 or even 6 and 2.

Anyway, Stalin met us through his exploring caravels, which showed how close the circumnavigation race was:



But the dumb thing was he had two caravels exploring together. The other one could do so much more if it had explored in the other direction. Smart AI

Well, I had to eat my words, though, when another caravel showed up at the other side:



Arghh! Are we going to lose this race?

At least ours weren't doing badly. They've both sighted land, and we came into contact with two more AIs: Gandhi and Mehmed. I'm getting deja vu. Are you?

This is how we stood with regards to tech:



We only have Paper on Mehmed. Godel is right. The other continent has been peacefully teching like a bunch of dimwitted computer-controlled players. Wait, that's what they are

At least we still have a few techs on Brennus. He has researched Machinery and CS by himself, though, and we haven't gotten Feudalism. But we could trade for it:



What do you think of this deal?

This is where I stopped playing. We've researched Philosophy, and if we continue aiming for Liberalism, we would research Education next. However, given the advanced state of the other continent, we might not be in a position to win this race. Should we not try and research Astronomy manually next? It would only take the same number of turns as Education (12) anyway. The only thing in favour of continuing our research towards Liberalism is how close we are to getting our next GP:



Take note of the state of Washington's trade routes now that we've switched to Bureaucracy and built a harbour. Also note its beaker output thanks to the Academy (base commerce of 52 with 9 beakers from specialists). Not bad at all, I'd say.

Anyway, if we add another scientist, we would get a GP in 3 turns. We could start on Education for now and wait for the GP. If it turns out to be a GS, we could use him to lightbulb part of the rest of Education. That way we may still have a chance to win the race. But what if he turns out to be something else? Should we then stop and divert our research to Astronomy?

The circumnavigation race, however, is one that we are likely to win. Gandhi is willing to trade his world map, and he probably knows the whole of his continent. His map would connect the two routes our caravels have explored. Only money seems to be the issue. If we make the trade with Brennus, we would have some gold that we can offer Gandhi for his map.

Anyway, on the subject of Brennus, now that we've come into contact with the other continent, we can start preparing to take him on. He hasn't met anyone except Stalin, but I doubt that anyone will like him anyway. New York has started building more catapults and we could start building maces in other cities soon. Should we whip? I'm not inclined to do so since at this stage of the game I think we need as much population as possible. Assuming we give up on Liberalism, should we use our GE to lightbulb Engineering now and research the rest of it so that we can build trebuchets asap?

We definitely need to start building units soon:



And here's the map of our continent now, just for an overview:



We're coming to the major turning points of this game. The outcome of the Liberalism race and the opening of the campaign against Brennus would affect how the rest of the game turns out.

you need engineering soon, as well as astronomy (trebuchets! and castles for the trade route)
I'd trade with gandhi if possible to get this, but i don't know if you have something to offer...

Feodalism isn't great in vanilla, but here it opens the vassal states...
Would you like a celtic vassal?

aelf said:

Anyway, Optics was discovered on the next turn. Washington was promptly set to build a caravel as quickly as possible (3 turns), while another was whipped in Philadelphia

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When I'm trying to win the circumnavigation race, if I don't have the production to build caravels quickly, I'll usually build 2 triremes sometime before researching Optics and then pay to immediately upgrade them to caravels. It's a cheap upgrade -- 65 gold on Epic speed or 50 gold on Normal.

I've noticed that the AI usually prioritizes Engineering while de-prioritizing Education, if that helps. In other words, if you get Education, you can likely use it to trade for other techs; while the AI is likely to research Engineering before you.

My own inclination would still be, for that reason, to continue on the road to Education, Liberalism, and free Astronomy. Education is still worth it for the universities and, eventually, Oxford, and you need all the tech help you can get. In addition, prioritize techs the AI doesn't, so you can max out what you can get from trading. Pump out that GP and keep your fingers crossed for a GS; even if he isn't a GS, stay the course.

Based on how things are going, you need to get after Brennus ASAP and take over your continent. You won't need Arabia or the Celts for trade routes soon, so they're just squatting on your land. To keep up with the AI you're going to need cities and population to pump out commerce and research. Leave things too long and the other continent will come sniffing around your choice locations, especially if you have to raze a Celtic city in order to place a new one in a better spot. You may want to use the GE for Engineering for the extra road movement, Pikes, and those fancy Trebuchets I've been hearing so much about.

A good game so far that just got a little more challenging! I'm looking forward to see what you do on the next round.