The Emperor Masters' Challenge 3 (on Warlords)

OK, this time I actually looked at the save. I'm a bit late to the party this time and I apologize if I am repeating anything.

1) Mecca has a citizen specialist. Any reason for this? He should be working the mine tile or something, shouldn't he?

2) Brennus is going really, really slowly in tech. He doesn't even have COL yet and it's 820 AD on emperor! Maybe we want to weaken him a bit before he has a chance to meet any other AI?
Upside: we have the units, now, to do some damage, and no negative modifiers from others around the world.
Downside: WA is bringing in 20 commerce from him so maybe this isn't a good idea...

3) I usually always go for CS ASAP so I'm a little biased here. I think that since it is 820 already, the AI is going to meet us before we meet them. We could use the GE for machinery (after metal casting), research CS, and hope that our rivals on the other continent(s) come and greets us while we are researching CS (which is very likely to happen soon at this stage) and then trade machinery to them for compass and optics and whatever else they want to give us. Then we can go for astronomy and kick Brennus' backwards butt with our macemen.

Don't forget about engineering!
 
If you Pop a Great Merchant as your next Great Person you can get him to lighbulb CS but you'd have to research/trade for the following techs, COL, Currency, MC, and Monarchy
 
illram said:
1) Mecca has a citizen specialist. Any reason for this? He should be working the mine tile or something, shouldn't he?

Hmm... you're right. I think he's quite new, not more than a few turns old. Strange decision by the untrustworthy governor as usual.

Anyway, I think Optics requires Machinery. So it wouldn't be possible to trade the latter for the former.

kniteowl made a good point about using a GM to lightbulb CS. It's a GP that we might get next so it's probably worth delaying researching CS for now. If we get a GM, we can use him to lightbulb CS. If we get a GS instead, we can research CS the slow way and use him to lightbulb Education later. Not sure what can be done with the possible GE/prophet/GA though.

I'm going to play the next round later. I think ultimately decisions can be better made on the ground. But thanks for the great suggestions, guys! They really help me weigh the pros and cons.
 
Round 6: 820AD - 1050AD

Sorry for the wait. Busy few days. And it's quite a short round this time because we're navigating our way past difficult choices that require much thinking and deliberation to be made in order for our mission to be successful.

So far we've gotten all the wonders that we need to maximise the benefits of the trade route strategy: the Great Wall (for a GE to build the ToA with), the Great Lighthouse and the ToA. Sadly, in the upcoming patch the Great Wall gambit is no longer viable, which quite a blow to our strategy since there's no way you can ensure you build both the ToA and the Lighthouse without it. Unless you have 2 high production cities very early and either stone or marble nearby. Or maybe if you build the Pyramids super early. But the show goes on, so let's see what can happen assuming both wonders can be built.

Now, with our strategy in mind, we are faced with some difficult choices. The trade route strategy favours getting Astronomy asap. Although it may not be the fastest, I think the most effective way to do this is by getting to Liberalism first and grabbing Astronomy as the free tech. That way, we get the relatively expensive tech free while setting the stage for a tech lead. This gambit is made easier by the possibility of lightbulbing Education with a GS, which is what we might be able to do since we managed to build the Great Library as well. Failing that, if we get a GM instead, we could use him to lightbulb CS, which is an important tech and on the way to Education.

However, there is a problem. We need Optics for Astronomy, and that tech does not lie along the Education route. But beelining to Optics also has its benefit - the possibility of winning the circumnavigation bonus. Since we are not aiming to win by diplomacy this time, we may have to attempt domination by conquering one or two factions on the other continent (assuming the AIs there are not united as one). The +1 movement bonus to ships would certainly be helpful when we have to conduct intercontinental campaigns to get enough land/pop to win. We had a GE around to help with this, since he could lightbulb Machinery, which is on the way to Optics. However, should we delay CS for this if we don't get a GM next? Bureaucracy would help our research, but if we research CS before Optics we might lose the circumnavigation race. Of course, there's no way to tell that we're not going to lose anyway. Or to lose the Liberalism race, for that matter. Certainly a tension-filled phase of the game.

Well, for this round I decided to research Metal Casting first for the cheap forges and their extra happiness from gems that would encourage more growth and hence increase our research power. Anyway, it's probably worth waiting to see what GP we get next. If we get a GM, we could lightbulb CS so we might as well be researching the other techs we need along the Optics route first. If we get a GS, we could lightbulb Education later on and get even more free beakers that way, but we would've been delaying CS at the detriment of our regular research. But then again it might mean we're on our way to winning the circumnavigation race.

And I set the NE as Washington's next build, since most of us have agreed that we should maximise the GPP we're getting there asap:



Then I traded CoL to Brennus for gold to help us keep our science rate high so that we could get the techs we needed sooner:



A few turns later, our exploring spearman (which was built to guard against a sneak attack by Brennus, by the way) found out the situation around stone city site:



Looks like Brennus razed the Arabian city there and has a big city of his own nearby. Well, too bad, I guess. I think we should build a city on the ruins in the future (if one hasn't been built there already) but keep Gergovia when we capture it. It's one tile away from the river, though. Hmm...

Anyway, soon, two more catapults arrived in Mecca and it was time to delcare war on Saladin again:



Our target was Medina, the holy city of Christianity. We already had a prophet waiting to build a shrine there. There was a small problem, though: By the time we invaded, Saladin has researched Feudalism:



Damn. Protective longbows :eek: This might be costly. First, we had to spend a few turns bombarding to cultural defense to 0.

Meanwhile, we discovered Metal Casting. Since we hadn't gotten our next GP, I decided to proceed further down the Optics route, using our GE to lightbulb Machinery:



Yes, I know some of you buildaholics out there might be clamouring for another wonder hurried by him ;) But I think this is worth the investment. After the lightbulb, we needed only 1 turn to research Machinery.

Notice that Washington is unhealthy in that screenshot. Yes, health problems were indeed beginning to rear their ugly heads, partly due to an Arab trireme pillaging the clams near Mecca. This delayed the construction of those forges, since our cities have to build aqueducts first even after the sheep to the south of Washington have been pastured (Brennus has no health resources to trade) :(

After Machinery was discovered, I checked our GP meter:



Not quite there yet. The completion of the NE would really hasten the birth of our next GP, but for now I guess we should research Compass (required for Optics) first. At least it would allow us to build harbours, which would increase our trade route income, especially in the capital.

Then Medina fell, at the cost of two catapults and two rookie axemen:



Well, it wasn't so bad. But we had to bring up our small reserve of catapults to continue our campaign.

[to be continued in the next post...]
 
[continued from previous post]

Our prophet promptly went up to the city and established the Christian shrine:



It's not going to give us much extra gpt anytime soon, but it will in time.

And then our next GP was born:



It's a GS. I guess that means lightbulbing Education later, on the way to Liberalism (Mecca already has an Academy and it will probably be our science city, so another Academy is not so important). However, we need to research CS the slow way, and I'm wondering if now is the time to do so since we just discovered Compass.

This prompted me to end the round. Should we research CS now and switch to Bureaucracy? But if we don't research Optics, I think it's likely that we'll lose the circumnavigation race. It pays to be paranoid about how advanced the other continent is.

Also, our stack has marched up to Baghdad and found it well defended:



I don't know if it would be worth the effort. We could send our stack down to check out 'New Najran' instead and see if we could capture/raze that city more easily. What do you think?

We still have relative tech parity with our neighbours:



We have Machinery and Compass on Brennus. And he is willing to make a trade for those:



This would help us get CS sooner, since Feudalism would shorten the number of turns needed to research it. The downside is we would be giving Brennus a potentially dangerous military tech (by the way, yes, as you can see, he has grown fond of Saladin). And I'm not sure we want to do that:



Brennus has to go down eventually, and that could be soon. Owning the whole continent is the surest way to win, whatever the strategy we use to help us get there or win after that. Helping him become even more powerful will not make taking him down easier.

The map of the continent right now:



Apparently, our empire has more population than Brennus' right now. But that won't stay for long, since we're pretty much hugging the southern shore while the Celt has had a field day settling much of the rest of the land. Conquering his empire won't be a stroll in the park. I think we should begin the campaign by invading the city NE of Boston after we've made contact with the other continent.

Your comments and advice would be most helpful now :)
 
Nice report aelf.

You have done a good job warring, but now it must slow down. Your stack near Baghdad is too small to attack and win agains three Protective Longbows. The City Garrison III Longbow will certainly be a rock as a defense. Four Catapults and three Axes, it's unlikely. Turn away from Baghdad and go for the old Narjan site, then, get reinforcements, and take Baghdad.

I agree that you should eliminate Brennus, the decision for when that is made is when? He has quite a bit of land, as much as you, and will only become stronger the more you wait. I would say go for him once you get Maces, as you should have found other Civilisations by the time you have a sufficient invasion force.

Have you made up your mind about what victory condition you're going for, because that will determine a lot of your strategy once you have control of your continent.
 
Lucky Charms said:
Have you made up your mind about what victory condition you're going for, because that will determine a lot of your strategy once you have control of your continent.

Not yet. I think it's too early to tell. It's either space race or domination, that much I know.
 
I would go after Civil Service at this point.

You have Machinery, so CS will give you Macemen to capture Baghdad and, more importantly, get started on Brennus. In my opinion, the sooner you get them, the better.

Furthermore, switching to Bureaucracy will help you with the circumnavigation race. Thanks to the commerce boost you will be able to research Optics faster. And since Washington is coastal, you can build Caravels there faster as well thanks to the production boost.

If the AIs from the other continent appear, you can always switch research, deficit spend to rush it, and then whip out Caravels. I find the AI tends to take its time exploring other land masses rather than purposely setting out to win the circumnavigation bonus, so that may give you just enough time to beat it to the prize.

It's also a case of weighing priorities. The circumnavigation race is a "nice-to-have", but rarely essential, while Macemen and the powerful Bureaucracy civic are often keys to victory.

One other thing: I would NOT trade any more techs to Brennus. I usually forgo getting Feudalism until quite late and have yet to regret it. And Brennus is your next target, so don't help him out. Machinery, IIRC, will let him build Crossbowmen, who are a better counter to Macemen than Longbowmen; you won't have a counter to Crossbows until Guilds and Knights, and that's a long way off. Wait and get HBR and Feudalism from the other continent.
 
I pretty much agree with Sisiutil.

Also we may have civil service on our future visitors, so we could always trade it for optics.

I also agree with your point that it pays to be paranoid about the other continents tech rate. With this in mind, I would say that getting to liberalism first should be seen as a remote possibility. It pays to try, but if Gandhi, Wang Kon, Persia, or any other science minded civs are over there I think they'll get it first. (Unless we beeline for it? But that may be too detrimental for the long run.)

Hopefully the other continent has been taken over by the Aztecs and the Mongols or something...
 
Strange.... Whenever I lightbulb machinery I It never tells me how many breakers goes towards it just light bulbs it auotmatically.

If you keep your Great Poeple longer and not use them for techs immediately do they get breaker decay?
 
kniteowl said:
Strange.... Whenever I lightbulb machinery I It never tells me how many breakers goes towards it just light bulbs it auotmatically.

If you keep your Great Poeple longer and not use them for techs immediately do they get breaker decay?
No...but each GP will give a maximum number of beakers towards whatever tech it will lightbulb. IIRC, it's 1500+3*TotalCivPop for a GS, and 1000+2*TotalCivPop for any other GP (at Normal speed). If that's enough to complete the tech, it just tells you that it will complete the tech.
 
Zophos said:
No...but each GP will give a maximum number of beakers towards whatever tech it will lightbulb. IIRC, it's 1500+3*TotalCivPop for a GS, and 1000+2*TotalCivPop for any other GP (at Normal speed). If that's enough to complete the tech, it just tells you that it will complete the tech.

Really? When I lightbulb Machinery which is quite early using the Early Maces Strategy, it jus automatically Pops and obviously I have quite a Low pop since my very 1st Great Person is a GE.

So do the number of breakers that go towards a tech using a Great Person Decrease they higher the level you play?
 
kniteowl said:
Really? When I lightbulb Machinery which is quite early using the Early Maces Strategy, it jus automatically Pops and obviously I have quite a Low pop since my very 1st Great Person is a GE.

So do the number of breakers that go towards a tech using a Great Person Decrease they higher the level you play?

no but the techs aremore expensive
 
cabert said:
no but the techs aremore expensive

True true, I also Found another Reason, Since on higher levels you have less Pop because of the low Happiness cap therefore the number of extra breakers (+2B) you get get from each pop is much lower compared to lower difficulty levels.

Combined with the more expensive middle age techs because of the higher levels makes it very hard for Great People to Lightbulb Tech Automatically instead of adding breakers.
 
illram said:
I also agree with your point that it pays to be paranoid about the other continents tech rate. With this in mind, I would say that getting to liberalism first should be seen as a remote possibility. It pays to try, but if Gandhi, Wang Kon, Persia, or any other science minded civs are over there I think they'll get it first. (Unless we beeline for it? But that may be too detrimental for the long run.)

It pays to be paranoid but not defeatist. In my own games, I win the Liberalism race regularly so it's very possible.

Well, we have 2 votes for CS so far. I'm inclined to agree, since CS is one of my favourite techs. And I agree that getting macemen and Bureaucracy earlier can be better than winning the circumnavigation bonus. However, the question is still open for debate.
 
aelf said:
It pays to be paranoid but not defeatist. In my own games, I win the Liberalism race regularly so it's very possible.


Well, I get paid to be cynical so don't pay too much attention to me.
 
Things didn't go as well as I had hoped, with longbows being a major spoke in our wheels, and Medina is a disappointment :( Only +2 food means it will be a slow grower and poor hammers means slow development. It does give us Iron and a Holy Shrine but I had thought it was going to be a jewel in our empire. To prosper it needs the 2 jungles turned to grassland farms and chain irrigated, but that will take a long time to arrange.

Bagdad looks to be much too difficult until we have maces or trebuchets to crack those longbows. I guess we can pillage and retreat. Kufah has now grown to size 2 and would be easily takeable by our current army, it's a real pity it is so far away from where we are. It would take about 10 turns to move there and the same to come back to Bagdad. We have a really horrid spread out shape to our empire. Engineering will speed up movement once we research that... another research "priority" :rolleyes:

We have a lot of potential for research but not enough beakers per turn for this stage of the game. Two cities, Washington and Mecca will be providing most of research in the future but both are seriously underperforming right now :(

Mecca has superb food especially when the crab gets back online (after Saladin pillaged it), and with the free academy a good 75 % research modifier. The trouble is it has low commerce right now and will take a long time to grow cottages. So its beaker output is low. While the cottages are built and worked it should get judaism (urgently required) for OR and a forge, and build both monastries.

Washington has huge potential with high commerce but unfortunately it has low research multipliers (only 25% for library so far). As we all know: Output beakers = commerce x science slider x research modifiers and we need to work on all 3 of those components to get the best from the city. So it needs an academy and both monastries built at some stage (for another 70% research)... just add those to the high priority build queue :lol: Therefore I would settle the scientist we have for tha academy instead of keeping him hanging around for a long time to lightbulb a part of Education.

Just to be clear :lol: Washington needs:- academy, harbour, aquaduct, forge, market, Jewish monastry, Christian monastry, and after Engineering walls and a castle plus Bureaucracy (which will help build all that stuff). That is some build queue, but what a city it'll be if you can put all that together. And that is the objective of this challenge (as I understand it), to develop the trade route strategy to its full potential.

Sorry, aelf :) I feel guilty criticising your game so severely but it is not your fault at all, but rather the strange situation we are in with so many conflicting demands. This game is notable for having so many options and no clear and obvious research and military strategies to follow. It is one of the most complicated and difficult games I've seen and so one of the most interesting.
 
At least it would allow us to build harbours, which would increase our trade route income, especially in the capital.
don't forget about the health benfits of harbors if the sea resources are there.

and yes, another vote for CS :crazyeye:
 
Maces are cool. I vote CS too.
 
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