SGOTM 03 - Fifth Element

Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 3 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
As Peter The Great, Leader of All the Russias, you are charged with achieving a Diplomatic or Space Victory.

This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, crowded map, at Epic speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Diplomatic or Space victory.

Version
Your team will play this map in Warlords version 2.08, using the standard HoF Mod for Windows version 2.08. This is currently HOF_Mod-2.08.001, but we shall use the latest version of the mod as at the start date for the game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of December 1st.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.



Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Aggressive
Barbarians - Standard
Permanent Alliances Enabled
No City Razing

Notes

• Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  
• BOTH Civilization IV v1.61 and Warlords v.2.08 are supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with your chosen version throughout the game.
  
• Teams will compete for four awards for each version of the game - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.
  
• All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve Diplomatic or Space victories in the least turns.
  
• All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun.

Reserved for Team info posts (if we need any)

Hi all, a new adventure begins ...

I suppose you all saw my last post in our SGotM2 thread (edited few moments before this).

AlanH decided for 6 members/team, then he added Civicide ... welcome.

After the formal activities (subscriptions, team rules, member knowledge)
I hope we'll start to discuss about the game, i'd like to begin to play the very first day.

Welcome to you, Civicide! Please tell us a bit about yourself.

This info is mostly for Civicide, since the rest of you already know what a pain I am ; I'm American, but I spend most of my time in China, so I'm basically GMT +8. I'm a vanilla monarch player, which means I'm probably a prince warlords player.

I'm currently at home with family for the thanksgiving holiday, and will return to China next week. I'll keep up with the discussion as much as possible (I'm not spending a lot of time at the computer) but would prefer to play late in the turn order, so I have time to get settled in after I get back "home".

As far as I'm concerned, the order just like AlanH has it in the maintenance thread works fine for me.

Hey guys,

This looks like an interesting game -- 17 other civs, archipelago, no city razing, diplo/space victory only, PA enabled and aggressive AI. Can't say I've done this before.

Because this is so unusual, I've created a test game. This save was made before any moves, and the map can be regenerated if you want to try different map layouts. I made no attempt to match our starting position in the SGOTM as I think it's more important feeling comfortable with these unusual settings.

View attachment 143048

EDIT: This is giong to be a test of our systems. 17 civs really slows things downs by 1000 AD

Hi everyone, and welcome, Civicide.

Thanks for the save, Brian, I'll have a look tomorrow (although, the Ashes are on, so I can't promise anything ). I rarely play archipelago, never 17 AIs, and space and diplo victories are usually my last ditch efforts, so this will be yet another learning experience for me. I'm guessing we'll need to be fairly strong in research, and I have always loved GL/ Collosus on archipelagos.

As always, the first questions are:
1. Where to settle? In place looks solid. Move the scout to the hill 1N or the hill 1N2E?
2. Techs? What are Peter's strengths - esp in W2.08? Do we want to grab a religion, get the Oracle, etc? Perhaps we wont meet many civs early (hmm 17 AI ) so can we postpone alphabet and miitary techs? Well, I might have more idea after playing the test.

Hi all. Glad to see you in SGOTM 3.

I say we should play BrainS s test game individually before starting this one. Hopefully i ll my short report about my experience before we start.

Well, I just played a bit of this map after a couple of regens, and fouind myself miserably behind in tech at 145BC, and with no wonders. We're definitely going to have our work cut out for us.

Mind you, my little slice of heaven certainly wasn't a great starting spot, covered with jungle and without many resources. I spent many years avoiding growth in Moscow due to a lack of happiness, although my island is covered with dye that I'll be able to get to later.

I just popped alphabet and may be able to get close to tech parity, but Hatty is making a run and I haven't met everybody yet, so we'll see. For sure we're going to have to play very carefully.

It's a diplo/space victory we want, but I think we're going to have to whip out the old pointy stick early and often to keep the competition down.

I wished to post this after Civicide confirm, but i've sent him an e-mail after the PM you all received, then i go:

I DL Brian's test game, and play few turns, editing some tile to better fit with the official starting SS.
if you're interested, it's here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/51166/Brian_BC-4001.CivWarlordsSave

About the system: i didn't noticed it's slow, but probably it can suffer when we'll know more map and meet some civ.

Early game decisions (my opinions):
- settle in place (pity to loose 1 FP, but...)
- our first research should be Fishing, probably followed by Wheel>Pottery or BW (most for whipping, but of course to see if there's some copper around).
- Moscow will never be a powerhouse, but a settler/worker farm in the early game and a GP farm later.

the map type is Archi/Archi, with no GH in our island (Gyathaar answered to this question).
probably an early religion is not possible (and not interesting), with all the spiritual civs around.
We can start to produce a warrior, working the FP, then switch to a WB ASA we'll learn fishing, continue to work the FP, and when at size 2 work forested Spices and a forest.

Of course much will depend from what we'll scout in the official map:
- If we'll have a very close neighbour we'll can consider a worker stealing, and/or to build a settler after the first WB.
- If not, we can build a 2nd WB, then a settler or a worker to cottage the FP and to road around.
- I suggest to move the scout in the hill E/NE

2 more attachments:
a SS with the autolog settings that i find useful.


the autolog for the few turns i've play: those htm are well readable, and easily editable with MS Front Page. http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/51166/autolog.zip

Game strategy:
Laurels are for diplo or SR
... i'm pretty good in the last one, a disaster at diplo ... but there's a 2nd way to diplo:
to own over the 60% of population, avoid domination limit, then vote for ourselves .

About SR:
I've play a test game, been alone in a 6 cities island, with optimal city placement and good resources.
I built all the early wonders, but ToA.
At a certain point i splitted, and:
1st split: 6 cities, not a single war, very weak military ... i was considered weak by the AIs, then almost all DoW me, despite my ability to build few but powerful units and a powerful navy.
no more than annoying, i razed some cities, kept one and launched in 1926.
2nd split: i made good use of my cossacks (against longbows), conquering 2 isolated civs and keeping all their cities, in a pretty good land (at least with lots of cottages/towns).
an AI DoW me anyway, followed by a 2nd (probably bribed from the 1st), just to loose 2 cities (one razed) to my tanks, GS and marines, not to mention their frigates, sunken by destroyers and battleships.
i was the last in power, but probably they learnt the lesson: launched in 1855, and with less fear to be invaded.
Conclusion: if you got a good economy, growth IS power.

About Peter's traits:
Expansive can perhaps help in the early game, but we'll have to focus on the philosophical thrait, lots of GPersons can be popped.
I hope we'll got stone, pyramids would be precious (better if built by some neighbour ).
We can try also an MC or CoL slingshot with Oracle, we'll see.

Waiting for your comments.
Sweetacshon: i had to search wikipedia about Ashes (here is just the first day of Lent, but probably is better translate with Cinders?) ... so you're a cricket fan?

Our aim should be make PA with tech leader if we are going to go for space victory.

@Blumbmuz
You havent made any PA s in your test game right?

Doom Train said:

@Blumbmuz
You havent made any PA s in your test game right?

Click to expand...

No, i didn't. I was far away the tech leader, i just wished to try the difference between a small, peaceful kingdom and the biggest and most advanced empire, ready to fight anything, given the same conditions until the middle ages (until education).

Another thought:
the laurels are for the fastest finish, not separate for SR/diplo.
usually (probably always) a SR takes longer than a diplo, especially if a diplo is sure, having all the votes needed; in case of a diplo, a PA will surely help, but don't forget it will be enabled with Communism, then after SM, very late in the game.

Then, let's sharpen our swords and axes.

Hello everyone! Good to be here! I'd have confirmed sooner but was out of pocket over Thanksgiving break (I see we have a very international team, so forgive my observances of Yank holidays!). I'm here now, though, and should remain in pocket for some time.

A bit of info about me. I'm American, currently living in Texas, Central Time Zone (GMT -6). I work full time, and occasionally my hours might turn out to be inconvenient, but I should be able to find the time to play some turns on just about any given day, provided I'm not on vacation or some such thing (as I may very well be over Christmas, but apart from that, I should be available).

This is my first SGOTM, my first SG at all, so it'll probably take a bit of practice to get comfortable with the submission system, so please bear with me.

As for Civ skills, well, I suppose that will just have to wait and see ... most of the time I play on Prince (Warlords 2.08), where I can usually pull off a victory if I'm paying close enough attention to what's going on. (I have a 2 computer setup and am an avid online poker player, and have a bad habit of playing poker on one comp and Civ on the other - not good for either hobby, truth be told, and I promise to avoid those impulses when playing in a SGOTM). I'm generally more comfortable as a builder than as a warmonger (usually gravitating to cultural or SR victories) but will do my best to adapt to whatever style of play the group needs.

Thanks again for having me and I'm looking forward to pushing Mighty Mother Russia to an obscene point total!

Yep, I'm a cricket fan, and the Ashes are the pinnicle.. there's nothing better than grinding the Poms into the dirt in sports they invented

You are a poker player, Civicide? I dabble a bit too, and you are so correct about keeping your mind on the job. There have been a couple of times I have had a bad streak of cards, gotten bored and started something else, only to realise that I'm folding AK or getting too excited all-in style about my 77. And don't worry about the uploads, the page is structred really well, you won't have troubles. Just remember to "finish" the turn (but don't press enter, of course) before you save, and try not to leave any units on goto orders.

Right - to the game. I'd like to voice my opinion that getting a religion IS an option. I played the start of Brians save around 7-8 times (don't remember, it was late) and got either Bhuddism or Hinduism EVERY time. You just have to delay the worker and build a warrior instead, work a fp 'til pop, then fp and coast, and we're a shoe in. Having the religion, imho, outweighs the absence of the worker in the first 15-20 turns, through happiness, free culture, and of course, money. Anyway, try it yourselves: play the first 100 turns or so, and tell me if you can't nab a religion, the wonder of your choice, and spit a worker and settler out?? (most Civs seem to build a wonder around this time)

The game I played on with after convincing myself that the religion was no fluke, was only to about 1000AD, where it did start bogging down, this would be mainly due to my half gig of mem, but I'm on a laptop, so I'll just have to streamline.

Insights:

These maps always seem a bit production poor, so a judicious use of the whip is in order, and I think the capital will excel here. I farmed fps, and didn't cottage overly much at all. It is easier and quicker to get commerce from the sea. Thru the religious techs I built the Oracle, grabbed MC and then built the Collosus. The Oracle soon gave me a GP, and in went the shrine. I was always researching at 100%, and if I needed some cash, I put it on 90% GLH is also good, lasts a bit longer, but is less powerful, imo.

A worker doesn't have much to do at the start, no hills, no resources to improve, so we really needn't build one 'til BW... maybe even settler before worker. After this we'll need galleys, or perhaps triremes are better for exploration, and writing/ alphabet. Finding as many civs as possible is a must, espcly with a religion. From then on, it's settle, explore, spread religion, take what you don't already have, and find a few good trading partners. The tech rate is fierce with this many civs, and also wars escalate quickly.

So, my plan is settle in place - warrior(s) til workboat
mysticism > (a religion medi or poly) > fishing > BW > Priesthood (oracle) > worker tech or two > writing > alphabet with MC from the oracle somewhere in there. I'm not sure we'd have the time for CS.

Welcome Civicide! I hope you enjoy your first foray into SG.

Great discussion going here. I'm seeing some themes start to emerge. Here's my experience:

Being the Technology leader is a challenge-- I've played several test games on different maps through the middle ages. In my first games, I was left in the tech dust. With so many civs teching and trading at Monarch level, things move fast. It's easy to have and lose a tech lead. I found most success through getting Colossus and the Great Library and being very aggressive with trading. If I didn't trade quickly after getting a new tech, it quickly lost its value. I also started basing more tech choices what I could use for trade instead of what I needed. With 17 civs, I could often trade the same tech to a lot of civs if no one else had it. Blubmuz, it sounds like you were successful in gaining a tech lead. What worked for you?

The whip is your friend says Sweetachson, and I agree -- this is a food rich/hammer poor environment. Unfortunately, work boats are expensive in the early game but the whipping payoff is large. At least the city still grows while building them.

Enemy selection--with so many civs, things get crowded quickly. I think you just need to look at your 2 closest civs and pick the one you hate the most. For me, that's usually Montezuma...backstabbing SOB. If anyone's going to backstab, I want it to be me!

Wonder selection--I never went for the Oracle. Instead I tried to get these three: Colossus, Great Library, and Hanging Gardens. I like to put HG in a decent production city that will also have an early forge and where an engineer specialist makes sense. It's nice to have a steady, if occasional, supply of Great Engineers--they lightbulb some nice techs and come in handy to rush a wonder. I consider any additional wonders gravy. I'm not so quick to go for Oracle on Monarch because it's too easy to miss and I don't like to give up the early opportunity to expand and build an army.

Interesting comment Sweetacshon about going for a religion. In my most successful game, I never got a religion and never converted to one. I'd gladly accept new religions for the opportunity to build monasteries and temples, but by not converting I think I kept more trading partners. Have I mentioned that there are 17 civs to trade with?

Sweetacshon put the first plan on the table:

So, my plan is settle in place - warrior(s) til workboat
mysticism > (a religion medi or poly) > fishing > BW > Priesthood (oracle) > worker tech or two > writing > alphabet with MC from the oracle somewhere in there. I'm not sure we'd have the time for CS.

Click to expand...

I'm with you about settling in place and warrior(s) til workboat. On techs, I'd probably go for fishing>BW>Sailing>Writing, but then i'm not so sure about the religion thing. What if we chose the wrong god and are smited for our insolence? Sorry, shouldn't message while drinking...

Sorry, shouldn't message while drinking...

Click to expand...

No problems.. if there's anything I don't understand, I'll get drunk and try again.

Religion. you are right, there are 17 civs, so some will get a little annoyed, but trading can overcome this. I think if we can spread it around enough, we'll be fine. It is yet another CiV gamble like wonders or wars.

Welcome Civicide, then we got 2 texans, although 1 is half chinese (for his location, of course).
About the game:
tech leadership wasn't referrred to this game, but to another game (complete different settings) i've play as Peter, to test other choices (see my #9).

I agree with Sweetacshon plan, that is not much different from the one i used in my test (using Brian's map - see again #9)

Warrior>Workboat is the only logical build to start, IMO.

a very early religion (buddha or hindu) can be grabbed researching fishing first? if so, great, and we can build and use the Oracle for MC.
if we don't wanna risk a very early religion, we'll can use Oracle for CoL, as i did in the test.
A CS slingshot is not realistic with this map and with math required in 2.08.
The GLH would be great, but it's expensive also with stone, better the GL and the colossus, especially if we manage the MC slingshot.
I think we can convert to our religion, with 18 civs tech trading is not a problem.
I suggest to explore with a workboat, to be built some turn before writing (for open borders).
Please take a look at my autolog in the zip file.

Hot damn! Another Texan in our ranks! When I'm not traversing the inner reaches of darkest Asia, I also call Texas my home, Civicide. Specifically, the DFW area. Where are you located?

Regarding SGs, you may want to have a look at our previous threads to get a feel for the flow of the games. We go on a 24/48 rotation, meaning that the next person in line has 24 hours after the save goes up to post a "got it" message, and 48 hours to play. We try to coordinate strategies as much as possible given that this is a competition game, but ultimately, in-game decisions belong to the player, if they're comfortable making them. Nobody will squawk if you come to a point where you reach a critical moment and want to post the game up and discuss what's next with the team.

Maybe the most important thing for me to tell you right now is that points don't matter, not one bit. The object of this game is to achieve the fastest victory in the given conditions, and it doesn't matter if we have 1 point or 10,000. In fact, we damn near ruined ourselves in the final push to victory in SGOTM2, by design.

I haven't tried the religious route, but it may well be a viable option.

I don't think we'll have time to wait for a launch, so diplomatic is the way to go. We should try to gain as many vassals and PAs as possible, because they are guaranteed votes. Remember that we'll have to watch the dom limits closely during our conquests. As many puppet states as we can get is better for us. If we're going to gain vassals, it behooves us to keep them relatively healthy, so they can do decent research for us.

If we can get the early religion reliably, That would be wonderful. I think we should go for oracle, for sure.

Warrior>Workboat is the only logical build to start, IMO.

a very early religion (buddha or hindu) can be grabbed researching fishing first? if so, great, and we can build and use the Oracle for MC.

Click to expand...

I really doubt we can get a very early religion with fishing first. They will both go very quickly. Judaism might be possible with fishing, but that diverges from the oracle route. Confusionism from the oracle is a possibility, but this means we'll have to get MC by hand, jeopardising the Collosus.

I think we should make a decision before playing:
1. Early religion - we need these techs for oracle anyway
2. Fishing first, then oracle techs - will aid early expansion, could use oracle for confusionism or MC... higher chance of missing a religion
3. A different early wonder, say Pyramids, ie masonary and a beeline to alphabet thru worker techs.

I am all for the early religion, but there are other ways of course: conquering a holy city, grabbing Tao, Christianity, or Islam, or even never converting, which would certainly keep some AIs happier. One thing to think of is our expansionist trait, ie extra health... not the greatest, but with a dedication to finding extra happiues, we can make BIG cities.

One other thing, HOF 2.08.02 is out, and we'll require that.

I propose this:
if we are not too close to another civ, and then we can delay the 1st settler, we can go for Hindu (usually AI go for Buddha).
We can begin research Myst, while building a warrior and if we scout another civ close, switch to fishing (or complete then switch, it's the cheapest tech).
As you say, we need anyway to follow the religious path for Oracle, and 3 or for turns of delay fishing are not so important.
I suppose thet in this game the first scout move doesn't need to be discussed, then we'll can post something after 5 or 6 turns.

We all agree to settle in place?
i vote YES.
who will be charged of the first TS?

btw ... thanks Sweetsacshon for the support in the maintenance thread.
it seems some people is a bit Taliban (just a bit, no offense ).

we can go for Hindu (usually AI go for Buddha).

Click to expand...

This is no longer the case in Warlords 2.08. The AI now prioritizes Polytheism (maybe for TOA?). I agree if we go for fishing first, we will likely miss a religion. So if we want a religion, we should go for it out of the gates, particularly with so many civs.