Delayed Caste System

Artichoker

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Many people have questioned the worthiness of the Caste System civic, especially in comparison to Slavery. The main criticism is that production capacity tends to be lower, especially before enhancements to workshops have been gained through Guilds and Chemistry.

But calculations show that for large city sizes, workshops become a better source of production compared to the whip. More significantly, the adoption of State Property can really kick a workshop-based economy into full gear.

The real question about Caste System is getting its two separate benefits to work in synergy. Since we know that Guilds, Chemistry, and State Property come into the game only in the middle and late stages of the game, the aim is to schedule a switch to Caste System approximately around that time. The next aim, obviously, is to maximize the other bonus of Caste System while doing so.

The weapon we have at our diposal is invoking the "unlimited" part of "unlimited specialists". In a steady-state progression of city production, a city must operate at 0 food or more to survive. However, in the short-term progression, this is not necessarily true. As long as we limit the total duration of the unlimited specialists period, our cities will not starve!

Enter the Golden Age. The Golden Age provides us two separate benefits that work in synergy: 1) anarchy-free civic switches and 2) an additional +100% bonus to GPP. With the Golden Age, we run as many specialists as we can select in our city screen for all of our GP farms, leaving only enough to grab the high-food tiles. If we have not done so, we also make sure our religion civic is Pacifism up until the last turn of the Golden Age.

Of course, we must prepare for this last-minute sprint in the turns leading up to the Golden Age. We do this by growing the size of our GP Farms so that their total food capacity increases, as well as their total population. During this preparatory phase, our other cities meanwhile can continue to whip infrastructure and/or units as normal.

Once we get the Golden Age, which will typically be the time of sprinting to Liberalism, we unlock our "unlimited specialists" clause to boost both our science and GPP generation.

As for the means of triggering the Golden Age, we can either aim to win the Great Artist from the Music race, or use one of our spare Great Scientists that we have gained right before the start of the Golden Age.
 
Guilds, Chemistry, and State Property come into the game only in the middle and late stages of the game, the aim is to schedule a switch to Caste System approximately around that time.

This is a valid strategy.

Enter the Golden Age. The Golden Age provides us two separate benefits that work in synergy: 1) anarchy-free civic switches and 2) an additional +100% bonus to GPP. With the Golden Age, we run as many specialists as we can select in our city screen for all of our GP farms, leaving only enough to grab the high-food tiles. If we have not done so, we also make sure our religion civic is Pacifism up until the last turn of the Golden Age.

This is a valid strategy.

But you don't have to use both of them at the same time.
 
This is a valid strategy.

Glad to find something that we agree on.


This is a valid strategy.

But you don't have to use both of them at the same time.


True, you don't need to use Caste System and the Golden Age at the same time, but look at what it does for you...

We all know that each specialist you run hurts the food supply of your city, because of the 0-food output of each specialist. The Golden Age helps organize your scheduling so that the food-deficit period has maximum positive results, but minimum negative results.

Take two scenarios, for example.

Scenario A

A city runs at +3 food for 16 turns, and then runs at -6 food for 8 turns. Assume that there is no population change during this 24-turn period. Then the food added during the +food period is used to stockpile food reserves for the city.

Scenario B

A city runs at +0 food for 24 turns. Compared to Scenario A, this city has the same net food over the 24-turn period. But the difference is that the specialists that are activated during this 24-turn period do not gain the GPP bonus of the Golden Age...or the GPP bonus of Pacifism, if that civic was not in effect at the beginning.


We can even go a step further by noting that with a granary, the food reserves of a city start at half of the total possible. This extra food from the granary further lessens the amount of food we need to stockpile during the preparatory phase before beginning the food-deficit period of the Golden Age...so it gives us an opportunity of running a small number of specialists (including up to 2 scientists) while stockpiling food for the city.
 
The big problem with switching to Caste System around guilds/SP is that emancipation starts becoming a factor around that time as well.

You are trying to compare a civic geared toward production (slavery) and that benefits from smaller city sizes (making population growth easier) with one that is geared toward great people and "commerce" and larger city sizes (since you want to run many specialists that you otherwise would/could have constructed buildings for).

If you are suggesting running Caste System ONLY during a golden age that would seem to be a doable proposition but if you use a Great Person to start the Golden Age then the Great Person you get during this time frame is basically a wash; although you have better control of the type (i.e., you used an Artist and run max merchants during the Golden Age)

The biggest advantage of Caste System during the timeframe in question is you hopefully have a strong GP farm with lots of people and food and now you want to try and get a merchant for Sushi and your to be Wall Street city or a scientist for your Oxford city or to bulb your way toward Liberalism and/or make catching up in technology easier. It also depends greatly on how strong your other cities are in production and whether they, will a little constant growth, would be able to replace much of the production that slavery was providing.
 
Note that if you involve SP that you are also very near Biology and Kremlin whipping that will beat workshop production in most cities.

Caste in golden age is a different matter. One word is enough: Music. :)
 
I meant, you don't have to use both strategies at the same time.

OK, I see what you mean...

Although it's true that the two strategies don't need to be used in combination, there is still an advantage in doing so. Here's why:

If Caste System were used solely for the +1 production bonus for workshops, and not as part of a Golden Age, there would likely be an extra anarchy cost needed to switch into Caste System (unless a "magic number" of other civics were changed at the same time). It would still remain a valuable production civic, but the cost needed to switch into it might not be justified, especially considering that Slavery is also a valuable production civic.

On the other hand, if Caste System were used solely for the GPP generation in a Golden Age, the timing of the Golden Age must also be chosen in order to maximize its effect. If the Golden Age is triggered too early, then the total combined output might not be worthwhile. Furthermore, the population and food capacity of the GP Farm cities activated during the Golden Age might not be sufficiently large to support a high-scale utilization of specialists, if the Golden Age is timed too early. If the Golden Age is triggered too late, then the extra Great People gained from the surge of specialists might not be as useful as if done earlier.




The big problem with switching to Caste System around guilds/SP is that emancipation starts becoming a factor around that time as well.

You are trying to compare a civic geared toward production (slavery) and that benefits from smaller city sizes (making population growth easier) with one that is geared toward great people and "commerce" and larger city sizes (since you want to run many specialists that you otherwise would/could have constructed buildings for).

If you are suggesting running Caste System ONLY during a golden age that would seem to be a doable proposition but if you use a Great Person to start the Golden Age then the Great Person you get during this time frame is basically a wash; although you have better control of the type (i.e., you used an Artist and run max merchants during the Golden Age)

The biggest advantage of Caste System during the timeframe in question is you hopefully have a strong GP farm with lots of people and food and now you want to try and get a merchant for Sushi and your to be Wall Street city or a scientist for your Oxford city or to bulb your way toward Liberalism and/or make catching up in technology easier. It also depends greatly on how strong your other cities are in production and whether they, will a little constant growth, would be able to replace much of the production that slavery was providing.

The timing of the switch to Caste System need not be as late as State Property, but rather the earliest of Guilds, Chemistry, and State Property. Any single one of these, combined with the +1 production from Caste System itself, will be enough to make workshops useful. The accumulation of bonuses over time by gaining each one of these makes workshops very powerful in the end...to the point that sometimes it is desirable to remain in Caste System even though the rest of the world is in Emancipation.

Regarding the use of Caste System in a Golden Age to generate great people, the most valuable aspect is, again, the ability to activate an unlimited number of specialists, to the point of creating a food deficit in your cities. The reason this is powerful is threefold: 1) It maximizes the GPP bonues you can gain from a Golden Age, Pacifism, and other sources 2) By concentrating your utilization of specialists into a shorter time period, you open up a window of time available for using Slavery 3) The transition from Slavery to Caste System is done anarchy-free, thanks to the Golden Age.



Note that if you involve SP that you are also very near Biology and Kremlin whipping that will beat workshop production in most cities.

Caste in golden age is a different matter. One word is enough: Music. :)

As stated earlier, the accumulation of bonuses for workshops is done gradually. In most cases, the bonus from SP is the last one to be gained.

But, I agree...Music is a perfect fit for using Caste System in a Golden Age.
 
Cutting production in fringe cities (where you'd still whip) for a faster tech pace can definitely be worth it. Caste workshops can be worth it, too. It's merely a judgment call of when, if ever, to make the switch and depends on tile distribution and to a lesser extent neighbors.
 
Cutting production in fringe cities (where you'd still whip) for a faster tech pace can definitely be worth it. Caste workshops can be worth it, too. It's merely a judgment call of when, if ever, to make the switch and depends on tile distribution and to a lesser extent neighbors.

This is a good generalization, but at some point, when cities have accumulated a large number of buildings, they can already activate more specialists than they can feed. For example, a Library unlocks 2 scientists, a Market unlocks 2 merchants, a Forge unlocks 1 engineer, a Courthouse unlocks 1 spy, etc.

At this point, the "unlimited specialists" component of the Caste System bonus becomes negligible...unless you are aiming for specific type of great person. Quantity-wise, however, once the Industrial Age is reached, chances are that any GP Farm city will have more specialist slots than it can support on a long-term basis.

This directly affects the timing of when the "unlimited specialists" part of the bonus can be valuable. Luckily, this part of the bonus is greatest near the middle part of the game, right before the Liberalism race is decided...and also approximately the same time that either Guilds or Chemistry is gained.

So...there is synergy, after all, between "unlimited specialists" and "+1 hammer for workshops". The synergy is, namely, the same time period exists in the general progression of a game, when both bonuses are likely to have greatest impact.
 
Nice OP, we need more like this - you should call your strat Temporary-PARC-ing :lol:

The one disadvantage I can see is that I'll often blow a Golden Age to reset civics mid game (like when Democracy is discovered) and using one for a tech burn would lose a turn or two of anarchy by comparison (still might be worth it though).

Of course one could time the end of the PARC-burn to end when you have democracy (or whatever civic you wanted to be in) although I might hurt my brain trying it.

And then there's the Taj-mahal - ouch my heads hurting :crazyeye:
 
Nice OP, we need more like this - you should call your strat Temporary-PARC-ing :lol:

The one disadvantage I can see is that I'll often blow a Golden Age to reset civics mid game (like when Democracy is discovered) and using one for a tech burn would lose a turn or two of anarchy by comparison (still might be worth it though).

Of course one could time the end of the PARC-burn to end when you have democracy (or whatever civic you wanted to be in) although I might hurt my brain trying it.

And then there's the Taj-mahal - ouch my heads hurting :crazyeye:


The Golden Age I'm using here comes a bit earlier than Democracy. However, besides Universal Suffrage and Emancipation, there are quite a few other civics that can be incorporated into the same anarchy-free switch as Caste System. For example,


Government Civics

Our options in this category are probably more restricted at this time, unless we skipped Hereditary Rule for the previous civic switch. I have done this before with success, in order to save anarchy on the earlier switch. In this case, now is a good time to add the civic anarchy-free.


Legal Civics

With Free Speech and possibly Nationhood unlocked by the end of the Golden Age, a switch into one of these now becomes possible. Or, if the Vassalage option was taken earlier, here is the opportunity to switch out of it.


Labor Civics

If Caste System was only a temporary option, we can fall back to Slavery. Depending on whether we have enough workshops, the decision can be made at this time whether to run Caste System as a long-term civic. Chances are, though, that with good planning, an adequate number of workshops can be built in anticipation for this plan, that we don't need to fall back to Slavery.


Economic Civics

Banking is usually available around the same timeframe as Liberalism and Chemistry. This unlocks Mercantilism, which can be a significant help in some games, especially during this critical time period.


Religion Civics

This category gives us the most options of all. We can either stay in Pacifism, or switch to Theocracy, Organized Religion, Free Religion, depending on the situation.



To address your concern about the need for a switch to Emancipation, I bring three options:


1) Schedule another Golden Age at a later time to cover that civic switch, possibly incorporating other civics to adapt to changing game conditions. This 2nd Golden Age will probably cost 2 great people...but the increased cost is justified by the greater output you will have with a larger empire. There is also a chance that the Taj Mahal could be used to generate the Golden Age...remember that you only need to gain Democracy by the end of the Golden Age, not the beginning.

2) Take the extra anarchy turns to make the civic switch. If you played your cards right, which will be easier because you had help from the well-timed Golden Age with Caste System, you will be in a strong enough position that this anarchy is not a significant loss.

3) Wait for the UN vote for Emancipation to carry you into that civic.

4) Be rebellious and stay in Caste System.


In most situations, I would recommend option 1). Towards the later part of the game, Golden Ages become more profitable with growing empires, and the increased cost is not as bad as it appears, since alternative options for spending your great people become less attractive.
 
I am interested but confused.

What is this +1 hammer from caste workshops you mention? I wasnt aware caste system improves workshops.


It's a bonus that came with Beyond the Sword. Most of the people on this forum are familiar with Beyond the Sword.


Looking back, it was a good rule change because Caste System was a much weaker civic in earlier versions. Not only did Caste System lack the +1 hammer bonus, but Golden Ages also didn't provide anarchy-free civic switches, before BTS.

Now that the rule changes have been made to Caste System and Golden Ages, Caste System is a very powerful civic in BTS.
 
spiritual can shift between caste system and slavery frequently.
that's the most powerful thing in game, I think.
 
spiritual can shift between caste system and slavery frequently.
that's the most powerful thing in game, I think.

True, but you still need to have Golden Ages in order to gain the full set of GPP bonuses for your specialists...
 
Gaining Constitution as the free tech from Liberalism will open up Representation as an ending civic for the Golden Age. This would allow the extra specialists from Caste System and/or Mercantilism to gain the +3 science bonus, and it would provide further justification for delaying Hereditary Rule.

We can prepare for this combination by gaining Nationalism right before winning the Liberalism race. Since AIs are rather likely to go for this tech, we might want to gain it in trade with one of the following techs:

1) Education, making sure that the Liberalism race is secured

2) Printing Press, with the help of a great scientist bulb

3) Guilds, through tech trade brokering to an AI that still doesn't have it

4) Engineering, through tech trade brokering to an AI that still doesn't have it


It might be necessary to put some research into Nationalism before trading for it, due to the rather high beaker cost.


The drawback of this option is that it takes away the opportunity to gain a bigger tech like Steel. However, it's rather easy to see whether trade opportunities for Nationalism exist at the moment. If they do, then gaining Constitution as the free tech from Liberalism will be opened up, and in turn allow Representation to be incorporated into the anarchy-free civic switching of the Golden Age.
 
I'll use a GA from grabbing a late music to switch to serfdom to workshop everything. Then we end in caste after just finishing guilds. Then just pop out some units and go to town. If you have a big hammer advantage at this time you can destroy anyone - even if they have a tech lead. And your GP farm maintains your tech pace.

I think what trips up people is not having the number of workers necessary to quickly make that workshop change. And you have to settle into jungle likely to have the grassland advantage.
 
I'll use a GA from grabbing a late music to switch to serfdom to workshop everything. Then we end in caste after just finishing guilds. Then just pop out some units and go to town. If you have a big hammer advantage at this time you can destroy anyone - even if they have a tech lead. And your GP farm maintains your tech pace.

If you were able to demonstrate the effectiveness of the production bonus alone by doing that, it would go a long way in proving that sometimes military and production advantage overshadows tech advantage.

My version of using Caste System during the Golden Age itself was meant to be more moderate, offering a balance of both production and science--trying very hard to milk the GPP bonuses from Pacifism and Golden Age. But variations from the original are certainly welcome, of course...

I think what trips up people is not having the number of workers necessary to quickly make that workshop change. And you have to settle into jungle likely to have the grassland advantage.

I have to admit, I've never thought of it that way...but after you've brought it up, it's certainly worth a try.
 
My version of using Caste System during the Golden Age itself was meant to be more moderate, offering a balance of both production and science--trying very hard to milk the GPP bonuses from Pacifism and Golden Age. But variations from the original are certainly welcome, of course...

I have to admit, I've never thought of it that way...but after you've brought it up, it's certainly worth a try.

Its important to understand all the potential strategies, my first thoughts were the GPP as you said since you can stay in slavery and just pop into caste/pacifism and bust out a bunch of GPs, but as you play you kind of half run into other strategies that would have worked better if you planned them earlier based on your map.

Right now the GAs I get every game are from music and then from building the Taj. All my strategies revolve around civic switching at those points in the game. A recent game I had a city that at 1 AD could run 8 specialists, but wanted to stay in slavery. I busted out several golden ages and only ran caste during those times - and managed to pop out a lot of great people.
 
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