Delayed Caste System

[TheWilltoAct]

Er, well you can't have everything Iranon, old boy!
I think Caste is a very cool civic, though it is tricky to take advantage of. In my current game I am running it in conjunction with Pacifism: I have one city (with the Great Library) with tons of scientists and another GP farm running a boat load of merchants. I am excited to see how it performs.
@ blitz: Golden Ages are your friends! Don't tell me you can't find a use for extra outputs on most every tile (really every tile if you count the specialists bonus)!
Also, welcome back.

 

[jmas]

@Iranon: I'm guessing you mean Angkor Wat by the "Great Beehive"? Haven't seen that phrase before.

Also, welcome back.

Amen, it's good to see you again, blitzkrieg. I was born in NJ you know. Represent!

 

[TheWilltoAct]

@Iranon: I'm guessing you mean Angkor Wat by the "Great Beehive"? Haven't seen that phrase before.

You quoted me, so ima go ahead and quote you!!
What is up with that nickname Iranon!? LoL

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

What about the case when you pop a Great Scientist after you have built 2 Academies and bulbed both Philosophy and Education? In that case, if you spend the Great Scientist on a Golden Age, you can use Caste System to generate multiple Great Merchants!

LoL. Yes, i know . That's why i said

well... never is a strong word. If I manage to pop a GS in the later game and I haven't used a GP for a gold age yet, I'll use the scientist or a combo scientist/whatever(non merchant)

AND

@ blitz: Golden Ages are your friends! Don't tell me you can't find a use for extra outputs on most every tile (really every tile if you count the specialists bonus)!
Also, welcome back

Amen, it's good to see you again, blitzkrieg. I was born in NJ you know. Represent!

Thanks guys! It was odd being away for so long, lol. Woot woot Dirtee Jerzee!

 

[jmas]

You quoted me, so ima go ahead and quote you!!

That's fine with me..

 

[Artichoker]

With more relaxed requirements for the types of great people generated, you will have more options for your Super and Major GP Farms.

In the recommended buildings I listed, I assumed that Great Scientist and Great Spy were the most desirable great people, and that other types were only allowable to a maximum of one great person.

This is not a hard-and-fast rule, to say the least. For example, if you are equally fine with a Great Merchant as a Great Scientist, then the Market becomes an excellent option of building that you can use in multiple Super or Major GP farms.

A cottaged flood plains city is a prime example of this. Such a city can double as both a commerce city and a GP farm, and the Market will provide the trifecta of benefits: a +25% bonus to gold, a chance for extra happiness, and 2 merchant slots.

For those players like me who appreciate the value of Great Merchants and Markets in general, the Market can also be a great option for Minor GP Farms as well, besides Major ones.

The key to making them affordable to Minor GP farms is to bypass Libraries and go straight for Markets. This can be very cost-effective when your empire has access to 2 or more resources that provide extra happiness with a Market. For example, many times a Theatre is built for the sole purpose of gaining the +1 happiness from Dye. With a Market, you have the chance for gaining +1 happiness each from several resources.

In these situations, going straight for Markets by bypassing Libraries gives those cities the opportunity to specialize in merchant GP points, rather than scientist points. In this way, a balanced GP composition can be assured.

 

[Artichoker]

The Theatre is one of the most peculiar buildings in the game. To some, it is merely a prerequisite building of the Globe Theatre. To others, it is a cheap way to generate culture or happiness (with Dye). In truth, it is all of these at the same time. However, one very often overlooked bonus of the Theatre is the two artist slots that it brings.

With Delayed Caste System, extra specialist slots of any kind are valuable. Scientist and merchant slots are the most universally valuable slots; however, other kinds of slots are useful in special situations. One situation that is common to all specialist slots is starting a Golden Age. In this aspect, all specialist types are equal.

The very low cost of the Theatre relative to the number of slots it provides makes it potentially one of the most valuable buildings in the game, in the right situation. Cities that are contesting valuable tiles via the culture war, for example, make artist specialists very valuable. With Pacifism, the potential to bring in a great person to start a golden age can be pivotal to the overall progress of the game.

Every game, on average, will have one city that has heavily contested tiles. This kind of situation gives way for the artist specialists in that city to be put to efficient use, while also speeding up the progress toward a Golden Age.

An extra bonus is that since Great Person types are random, there is a chance to generate either a Great Artist or a Great Scientist (assuming the other building is a Library). This provides the option of using the Great Artist to start a Golden Age, or to use the Great Scientist as one that was generated by more conventional means.

 

[The Rook]

Music is nice, but is it really necessary? Surely you could potentially net enough GSs to justify making the permanent switch to Caste using Pacifism alone? With a few bulbs you could hit Chemistry before 500AD, trade for Guilds (or even SR it), and potentially use all those workshop hammers to build some Cannons with Steel so close. The great thing about Caste for GS abuse is the bulb line happens to point directly to Communism (Lib, PP, Chemistry and SM).

 

[Artichoker]

Music is nice, but is it really necessary? Surely you could potentially net enough GSs to justify making the permanent switch to Caste using Pacifism alone? With a few bulbs you could hit Chemistry before 500AD, trade for Guilds (or even SR it), and potentially use all those workshop hammers to build some Cannons with Steel so close. The great thing about Caste for GS abuse is the bulb line happens to point directly to Communism (Lib, PP, Chemistry and SM).

Music is a gamble, like a lot of other things in the game. In cases where the AI tech progress is not certain, it's a risky gamble because losing the race could mean the loss of hundreds of beakers.

However, the real question that needs to be asked is whether a non-GS Great Person (earned the normal way) spent to trigger a GA is a sound investment. Depending on the timing of assigning this city specialists, you can get out this Great Person with reasonable speed with the help of a Library and Theatre, two buildings that cost under 200 hammers total. This timing can easily accomodate either an early-GA or late-GA strategy, depending on how many specialists you assign in the city.

In almost all cases, I find this investment (mentioned above) to be a sound one. The advantage of using a GA is that it provides an additional +100% GPP bonus, while at the same time allowing you to switch into Caste System, along with other civics, without adding anarchy.

The benefit that comes out of this approach is that instead of using Caste System in the initial switch, but rather saving it for the Golden Age, you can effectively (when playing in Normal Speed) add one more civic to get the total # civics changed for that 1-turn switch to 2.

 

[The Rook]

Of course if you generate a GP to burn for an early civics switch and GP boost, that's one less cheap Golden Age for later. If you are planning a Renaissance/Industrial war, the GP triggered Golden Age could be timed with a Nationhood/Theocracy switch, and hammers/workshops could take preference to the GP pool for developing an army quickly. Whether the timing of a GA is sound/optimum depends on too many factors relative to the specific game to derive a universal conclusion IMO.

 

[Artichoker]

Of course if you generate a GP to burn for an early civics switch and GP boost, that's one less cheap Golden Age for later. If you are planning a Renaissance/Industrial war, the GP triggered Golden Age could be timed with a Nationhood/Theocracy switch, and hammers/workshops could take preference to the GP pool for developing an army quickly. Whether the timing of a GA is sound/optimum depends on too many factors relative to the specific game to derive a universal conclusion IMO.

I agree with the last statement. But I'd like to put in a few words in support of Delayed Caste System:

1) It also works with a late-GA strategy. Instead of Caste System+Pacifism as your initial civic switch, you can substitute one other civic (such as a Legal civic) for Caste System. Assuming the Caste System+Pacifism option also adds a Legal civic, that means that 1 turn of anarchy is saved by using the delayed option.

Happiness and specialist slots are provided by buildings. The choice of building depends on what your needs are. For example, a Theatre can be built in a single border city, allowing the possibility to use a Great Artist thus generated to trigger a Golden Age. Commerce cities can build Markets, providing 2 merchant slots. In most cases, 4 slots is more than enough for all except the most food-rich cities. In any case, excess food can be used for growth or whipping. In general, I find that Great Merchants are comparable to Great Scientists in boosting research, but one additional use is the capacity to upgrade military units.

Going back to your example, Nationhood could be used in the Golden Age, although Theocracy would be replaced by Pacifism. Cities that are not GP farming can also contribute to production. Another "favorite civic" of mine is Representation. If you can get Constitution in time for the Golden Age, you can leave the Golden Age with a civic that maintains the productivity of your specialists.

2) With an early-GA strategy, you have two options. The first is to switch to Pacifism right away, and the other is to wait for the GA to make all your early civic switches at once. I tend to prefer the former, as it allows your specialists to become productive right away, while also adding the other civic that is taken in lieu of Caste System.

3) A strategy somewhere between early-GA and late-GA is probably favorable in most cases. As in the late-GA strategy, one other civic is taken instead of Caste System at the beginning. Since the pre-Golden Age period is shorter than the late-GA strategy, you will need to make an effort to utilize Slavery and the other civic you chose. You also will need fewer buildings than the late-GA strategy, as you will be looking forward to a GPP-boosting GA not very far in the future.

 

[pi-r8]

Music is nice, but is it really necessary? Surely you could potentially net enough GSs to justify making the permanent switch to Caste using Pacifism alone? With a few bulbs you could hit Chemistry before 500AD, trade for Guilds (or even SR it), and potentially use all those workshop hammers to build some Cannons with Steel so close. The great thing about Caste for GS abuse is the bulb line happens to point directly to Communism (Lib, PP, Chemistry and SM).

how do you bulb liberalism? I always get stuck having to research optics, compass, and astronomy before it'll let me bulb liberalism. I do bulb PP and Chemistry, though. Maybe I should do SM, although usually I get the great library, so it seems like such a waste to get SM early.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If you don't have machinery, you'll be able to bulb lib rather than PP ---> sci meth or toward astro. IIRC you do need to have compass already however.

 

[The Rook]

@pi-r8
You need to avoid Machinery, otherwise you unlock PP, Optics, Astronomy etc. I don't always bulb Liberalism/SM btw, but the line to Communism is there if you want it quickly. If you neglect your infrastructure for aggressive GS generation, then SP workshops can really help to catch up with development. I often head straight for Steel after Chemistry though, and end up trading for SM.

Going back to your example, Nationhood could be used in the Golden Age, although Theocracy would be replaced by Pacifism. Cities that are not GP farming can also contribute to production. Another "favorite civic" of mine is Representation. If you can get Constitution in time for the Golden Age, you can leave the Golden Age with a civic that maintains the productivity of your specialists.

Perhaps my example wasn't clear, I didn't mean switch to Theocracy instead of Pacifism, rather switch to Theocracy after a lengthy period of Pacifism. The main purpose of the first GP Golden Age is to aid a swift total war military build-up, so war civics are a priority. Maybe what I meant could be best illustrated with some screens. This is a small 6 city empire (Deity/Normal), so the cities are forced to perform multiple roles:



100BC Caste/Pacifism (GS farming):









780AD Caste/Nationhood/Theocracy/Golden Age (Production/Drafting):





Draft city

 

[Artichoker]

Perhaps my example wasn't clear, I didn't mean switch to Theocracy instead of Pacifism, rather switch to Theocracy after a lengthy period of Pacifism. The main purpose of the first GP Golden Age is to aid a swift total war military build-up, so war civics are a priority. Maybe what I meant could be best illustrated with some screens. This is a small 6 city empire (Deity/Normal), so the cities are forced to perform multiple roles:

What I meant to say was that Pacifism was chosen both before and during the Golden Age, when using my strategy. So during the Golden Age, I would be using Pacifism instead of Theocracy. This is mainly because some cities may not be finished GP farming at the time the Golden Age begins, so they need an extra boost to get their Great Person out before Pacifism is phased out.

But, yes, I see what you mean. You have switched the role of those cities from GP farming to military production.

I've read some of your games, by the way, and you seem to prefer using the 1st GS on a Philosophy bulb, in many cases. I actually like this strategy, but I'm wondering what your reasons are for using it instead of settling or building an academy. Is it mainly so that you can start using Pacifism earlier?

 

[Stalker0]

My main counter to this strategy is that if you assume caste system is temporary, you are only utilizing it for the workshop/GP benefits and then switching back....well then aren't all those workshops you built then sub optimal the rest of the time?

 

[Artichoker]

My main counter to this strategy is that if you assume caste system is temporary, you are only utilizing it for the workshop/GP benefits and then switching back....well then aren't all those workshops you built then sub optimal the rest of the time?

I have not assumed that Caste System is temporary. A Golden Age allows a total of 2 sets of civic switches. One of those can be a switch from Slavery to Caste System.

The second set of civic switches, taken at the end of the Golden Age, may or may not include a switch out of Caste System. The decision ultimately depends on the situation. For example, if I decided that workshops were important in the post-Golden Age period, I could stay in Caste System. Or, if there were Great People that were not finished during the Golden Age, staying in Caste System would be one way to finish them.

 

[The Rook]

I've read some of your games, by the way, and you seem to prefer using the 1st GS on a Philosophy bulb, in many cases. I actually like this strategy, but I'm wondering what your reasons are for using it instead of settling or building an academy. Is it mainly so that you can start using Pacifism earlier?

Exactly, the first GS for Philo costs 17 turns, but the next (in the example) will only take 5 turns under Caste/Pacifism (double civics switch) and time nicely with Bureaucracy for Academy. Also, Philo can be a useful trading chip. I don't have any hard rules on this though. Caste/Pacifism is more likely to be useful early with a small/developed empire. With extra space and a bigger rex, slavery might be more beneficial, and aggressive bulbing is less likely to be vital when you don't need to strike in the early Industrial era, and you just have to stay in sight of the AI in the tech race. In general I only settle if I expect the tech rate to be weak for a long time and the scientist may account for a significant percentage of beakers (Classical era warfare for example).

My main counter to this strategy is that if you assume caste system is temporary, you are only utilizing it for the workshop/GP benefits and then switching back....well then aren't all those workshops you built then sub optimal the rest of the time?

Of course you would have to assume Caste is temporary for this to be true. Personally I finish far more games in Caste than Emancipation.

 

[Artichoker]

Exactly, the first GS for Philo costs 17 turns, but the next (in the example) will only take 5 turns under Caste/Pacifism (double civics switch) and time nicely with Bureaucracy for Academy. Also, Philo can be a useful trading chip. I don't have any hard rules on this though. Caste/Pacifism is more likely to be useful early with a small/developed empire. With extra space and a bigger rex, slavery might be more beneficial, and aggressive bulbing is less likely to be vital when you don't need to strike in the early Industrial era, and you just have to stay in sight of the AI in the tech race. In general I only settle if I expect the tech rate to be weak for a long time and the scientist may account for a significant percentage of beakers (Classical era warfare for example).

Even with the 1st GS spent on Philosophy, though, I see one scenario where delayed caste system may do better than non-delayed.

Say, for example, you wanted to win the Music race, but with minimal risk. Then to open the Philosophy bulb you take Drama instead of Code of Laws. Once Drama is finished (hopefully you've timed your 1st GS to come out at the same time), whip out a Theatre in a border city and switch to Pacifism (the 2nd civic in the pair is yet to be discussed). Then run 2 scientists and 2 artists in the border city. With Pacifism, it should come out in 9 turns. During the last few turns, if no one has Music yet, tech Literature.

Now, there are 3 possiblities:

1) You get a Great Scientist. In this case, proceed with the game plan you would have taken had you not tried this gambit.

2) You get a Great Artist, and no one has Music yet. Now is your chance to reap your reward. Since Music is only 3rd on the preferences list, after Literature and Drama, you move it up to 1st by teching Literature. You can bulb Music and get another Great Artist for free, effectively gaining yourself a free tech.

3) You get a Great Artist, but someone already has Music. This is the worst case scenario...but it's not that bad, actually, as you can save the Great Artist for a Golden Age.


Now, the tricky part is deciding which civic to use instead of Caste System. If there are some fast-teching AI neighbors, you might be able to gain Feudalism in trade, opening up Vassalage. The default option is Hereditary Rule, which you can unlock by trading for Monarchy.

Once you have Music, you can use it as trade fodder to get some more useful techs, while keeping your free Great Artist ready to start a Golden Age when the time is right.

 

[Artichoker]

Now, the tricky part is deciding which civic to use instead of Caste System. If there are some fast-teching AI neighbors, you might be able to gain Feudalism in trade, opening up Vassalage. The default option is Hereditary Rule, which you can unlock by trading for Monarchy.

I might even go out on a limb to recommend delaying Slavery until the Pacifism switch. Depending on the map, you may recover the lost production from delayed Slavery by switching to Pacifism and Slavery at the same time.