Soda Pop Libertarian Challenge #1

JollyRoger

Slippin' Jimmy
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This is the first in a series of threads to tease out where some of the so-called libertarians around here really stand. It is inspired by the threads on the New York soft drink regulations that put modest speed bumps in the way of binging on sugary drinks.

To me, that was the city putting in a default standard - that drinks can only be served in a limited sized container - but that standard could easily be circumvented by the consumer and seller to allow the consumer to have as much sugary goodness as he wanted. Some libertarians here characterized it in more freedom-stealing terms than that. With that in mind, let me roll out another example of government defaults to see how they are seen.

For this thread, I will focus on the process of name change in Missouri when a couple is going to get married. I use Missouri, because that is the example I saw from elsewhere and I have verified the details, but the scheme is fairly common across the land.

In Missouri, the form that couples fill out to apply for a marriage license changes the woman's last name to the man's last name by default. To opt to keep her maiden name, the woman must check a box on the form. The form must be signed by both groom and bride, so she does not have the freedom to unilaterally keep her maiden name through this process - she must convince her husband-to-be to sign the form that changes the default.

For the man, he has no option on this form to change his last name to the woman's. To change his name, he must go through the court system and apply for the name change. This is more burdensome in some ways, because he has to pay a filing fee and he had to get permission from a judge. As we have seen from my thread on the Oklahoma judge that denied name change requests from transgendered people, sometimes judges can be very fickle and there is the possibility that a judge would not allow a man to emasculate himself to the point of taking his wife's last name. On the upside, the man does not need his wife's permission for the name change - just the judge's.

Of course, the woman could circummvent her man's desire that she take his last name by signing the form as he wishes and then applying through the court system to get back her maiden name, but this might face some obstacles, especially given the first name change on the marriage application.

It seems the state has set up some roadblocks for both people in the marriage and, like the New Your soda regulations, is channeling the parties to a certain result. If the defaults are chosen, the woman ends up taking the man's last name. For the woman to keep her maiden name, she needs to check a box and get the man's signature. If the couple wants to share the woman's last name, the couple incurs an additional fee and court appearance.

So libertarians (and others) - fire away. Tell me how this scheme stacks up against the New York soda regulations in terms of stealing freedoms.
 
In Missouri, the form that couples fill out to apply for a marriage license changes the woman's last name to the man's last name by default. To opt to keep her maiden name, the woman must check a box on the form. The form must be signed by both groom and bride, so she does not have the freedom to unilaterally keep her maiden name through this process - she must convince her husband-to-be to sign the form that changes the default.
That's not true at all. Name change is not compulsory in Missouri for bride or groom. To get your name changed after marriage, you actually have to go to the Social Security office and fill out forms. Missouri will not do it for you, even if you want the state to do this, and we asked specifically.

The bride keeps her name by default, the groom has no say in the matter. There are no check boxes, no signatures from the groom. It's solely up to the bride to go into the Social Security office and change it herself. In fact, the registrar tried to convince my wife to either not change it or go for a hyphenated last name.

Sorry, don't mean to derail, but that paragraph is false.
 
Wife-to-be is free to find another man on the free market who will abide her uppity name-keepin' ways.
 
That's not true at all. Name change is not compulsory in Missouri for bride or groom. To get your name changed after marriage, you actually have to go to the Social Security office and fill out forms. Missouri will not do it for you, even if you want the state to do this, and we asked specifically.

The bride keeps her name by default, the groom has no say in the matter. There are no check boxes, no signatures from the groom. It's solely up to the bride to go into the Social Security office and change it herself. In fact, the registrar tried to convince my wife to either not change it or go for a hyphenated last name.

Sorry, don't mean to derail, but that paragraph is false.
I didn't assert that name change was compulsory - I stated that the default on the application for a marriage certificate was for the woman to take the man's name. There is a check box to opt-out. My source was a biot dated (1993 marriage) and I will admit that Missouri may have changed its ways. And I did assert that there is a post-marriage unilateral method as you described.
 
So libertarians (and others) - fire away. Tell me how this scheme stacks up against the New York soda regulations in terms of stealing freedoms.

Personally, I can't fathom trying to be an anti-traditionalist trying to thrive in a state known for traditionalism. One could cite the Federal code all day long, organize marches and sit-ins, but if one's cause has a low popularity, then I'd consider moving. In the end, were the Jews better off fleeing the NAZIs early on, sticking their head in the sand and hoping the issue went away, staging an uprising, or collaborating with their oppressors? History showed the ones that fled early (e.g. window-breaking night or earlier) thrived best.

Personally, I don't fathom the transgender desire, nor the desire to deny a transgender name change on some sort of basis of natural-born-gender-is-decreed-by-the-judge's-favorite-religious-text.

Regardless if whether the reason for a civil law is claimed to come from a religious text, or faulty scientific reason, the resultant law still seems illogical or misinformed at best.
 
Names are a bourgeois contrivance. In communism, we shall be identified by soothing pastel shades.
 
I'm tanpeachgraygreenredpinkbeigegoldwhite
 
This is the first in a series of threads to tease out where some of the so-called libertarians around here really stand. It is inspired by the threads on the New York soft drink regulations that put modest speed bumps in the way of binging on sugary drinks.

To me, that was the city putting in a default standard - that drinks can only be served in a limited sized container - but that standard could easily be circumvented by the consumer and seller to allow the consumer to have as much sugary goodness as he wanted. Some libertarians here characterized it in more freedom-stealing terms than that. With that in mind, let me roll out another example of government defaults to see how they are seen.

For this thread, I will focus on the process of name change in Missouri when a couple is going to get married. I use Missouri, because that is the example I saw from elsewhere and I have verified the details, but the scheme is fairly common across the land.

In Missouri, the form that couples fill out to apply for a marriage license changes the woman's last name to the man's last name by default. To opt to keep her maiden name, the woman must check a box on the form. The form must be signed by both groom and bride, so she does not have the freedom to unilaterally keep her maiden name through this process - she must convince her husband-to-be to sign the form that changes the default.

For the man, he has no option on this form to change his last name to the woman's. To change his name, he must go through the court system and apply for the name change. This is more burdensome in some ways, because he has to pay a filing fee and he had to get permission from a judge. As we have seen from my thread on the Oklahoma judge that denied name change requests from transgendered people, sometimes judges can be very fickle and there is the possibility that a judge would not allow a man to emasculate himself to the point of taking his wife's last name. On the upside, the man does not need his wife's permission for the name change - just the judge's.

Of course, the woman could circummvent her man's desire that she take his last name by signing the form as he wishes and then applying through the court system to get back her maiden name, but this might face some obstacles, especially given the first name change on the marriage application.

It seems the state has set up some roadblocks for both people in the marriage and, like the New Your soda regulations, is channeling the parties to a certain result. If the defaults are chosen, the woman ends up taking the man's last name. For the woman to keep her maiden name, she needs to check a box and get the man's signature. If the couple wants to share the woman's last name, the couple incurs an additional fee and court appearance.

So libertarians (and others) - fire away. Tell me how this scheme stacks up against the New York soda regulations in terms of stealing freedoms.
Don't know how true this is but if its true its wrong and should be changed.

Changing your name shouldn't be a beaurecratic nightmare.
 
Don't know how true this is but if its true its wrong and should be changed.

Changing your name shouldn't be a beaurecratic nightmare.
Should the state opt you in on a name change (where you have to check a box to opt out)? Given legitimate concerns about someone changing their name to mask their criminal convictions or to make it harder for creditors to track them down, should it really be super easy? After all, name change is fairly rare except for marriage.
 
Should the state opt you in on a name change (where you have to check a box to opt out)? Given legitimate concerns about someone changing their name to mask their criminal convictions or to make it harder for creditors to track them down, should it really be super easy? After all, name change is fairly rare except for marriage.

I don't think it should be so easy that you can use it to continually stay off the record for crimes, but in marriage cases, I think this should be fairly simple.

As for the Opt in/Opt out, I don't care what the "Default" option is, you don't have to choose it anyway. If it is as easy to "Opt out" as checking a box, we are getting worked up over nothing.
 
Kind of like being able to easily opt in to drinking all the soda you want? Not worth getting worked up over?

The inconveinence there of having to buy two drinks every time you want over 16 ounces of soda, and having to carry two drinks around every time you want more than 16 ounces is greater than that of having to check a box... once.

Pretty big difference.

I'm not saying the soda thing is where the line should be drawn, it should have been drawn a long time ago. I like the way my law enforcement teacher put it "If the government can regulate what kind of sodas you can buy, they can regulate anything." That's the problem. They think they can do anything they want to regulate your life. Ridiculous.
 
The inconveinence there of having to buy two drinks every time you want over 16 ounces of soda, and having to carry two drinks around every time you want more than 16 ounces is greater than that of having to check a box... once.

The inconvenience of having to drink soda out of multiple containers trivializes the legal inconvenience a woman must endure in asserting her independence?

Priorities.
 
I think the issue is the one-sided nature of the convenience in taking the spouse's name. Does the government have a social-molding end-game in making this form one-sided? The problem could very easily be solved by giving both spouses the option of ticking a box to chose whose last name is chosen.

So, I don't think there's an end-game, and the solution is to fix the bureaucracy.

This differs, to me, from the soda issue. The government is intentionally trying to make it harder to drink certain quantities of soda. There is intentional social-molding going on. Because of this, it doesn't sound like there's an 'easy' bureaucratic fix either. The increased cost of certain quantities of soda is considered a feature, not a bug.
 
Get the government out of beverage size regulation marriage altogether and let people pick their own soda sizes names.

Hey, that was pretty easy!
 
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