32 European Civs

Simple question: considering all periods of history, considering merit, distictiveness, longevity and size, what 32 civs should there be if Civilization III, after the Conquests XP, were to consist only of European civs?

APPEAL: Please don't give a list of European states. So, don't lists the Belgians or the Andorrans. Civilizations, not states!!!

My list?

Here ye go (in order of priority):

1. Romans
2. Greeks
3. Germans
4. Russians
5. English
6. Spanish
7. French
8. Scandinavians
9. Portuguese
10. Turks
11. Scots
12. Goths
13. Lithuanians
14. Netherlanders
15. Etruscans
16. Gauls
17. Magyars
18. Irish
19. Poles
20. Minoans
21. Avars
22. Britons (Welsh)
23. Illyrians (Albanians)
24. Huns
25. Serbs
26. Czechs
27. Finns
28. Basques
29. Balts
30. Bulgars
31. Swiss
32. Vlachs (Romanians)


I hope I haven't forgotten anythiong important.

I think you forgot the Picts
I also think 32 is too many, how about a top 8?

1. Romans
2. Greeks
3. Saxons
4. Russians
5. Britons
6. Vikings*
7. Gauls
8. Huns

* I don't know much about them but there was another scandinavian civ in Sweden, and I think they survived to this day with less interference from the Vikings than their close proximity would suggest.

Celts (sorta Irish but not really)
Slovaks
Bavarians (some would argue they are not German)
Prussians (some would argue they are not German)

The problem is that there are a lot of little groups that could be lumped along with others into one major group, such as the Athenians and Spartans. Both groups were civilizations unto themselves prior to a greater Greek nation. The Turks, could count because they did once occupy much of southwest Europe, although they now hold mostly Asia Minor, with the exception of Istanbul. Then there are the Tartars.

I would really really really love to see the Spartans in a Civ game. Talk about potential for a dominating UU!

Well my emial arriver at 8:07pm pacific time (or 5:07 for you east people) But I just checked it 10 mins ago. WOOHOO

I love Civ3!!!!!

If you wanted to do it the "proper" way you shouldn't have any nations, states, or political formations as civs, because they tend to be tied to some age or historical situation. Instead the civs should rather be loose cultural groupings, or ethnicities which are more likely to survive across time (prime example: the Jews).

In Europe you could take as a base the Indo-European language groups as language tends to correlate with cultural groups. Thus you would have:

Greeks
Celts (which includes Gauls, Welsh, Scots, Irish, etc.)
Italian (which includes Latins, French, Spanish, etc.)
German (which includes English, Dutch, Scandinavian, etc.)
Slavs (which includes Russian, Polish, etc.)
Balts
Albans

But who ever heard of a "Great Alban Civilization"? Well, perhaps no-one, but if you think about it, that applies only to our particular run of the civilization. Perhaps if they had got a better starting location and chosen a wiser initial build strategy they would now be a major world power. After all I have played plenty of games where I have wiped out the Americans, the English, or the Russians in the early B.C.s ...

Civ is about possibilities, not what really happened in the OTL.

OTOH having a purist collection of civs might not be the ideal solution either, because sometimes I plainly just _want_ to play the Roman Empire.

Nevermind...

APPEAL: Please don't give a list of European states. So, don't lists the Belgians or the Andorrans. Civilizations, not states!!!

Click to expand...

Your list violates your own definition.
eg: Why are the balts 1 and the dutch and flemings not.
Scnadinavia isn' a state. Agreed. But 1 civ ?????????? You mean culture-group



What about the Franks.



We'de better make a tree.
"->" means split up in
eg.
(*) Franks -> France, Germany
(*) Germany -> germany, Austria, The dutch
(*) Austria -> Austria, Swiss
(*) France -> France, Flaemings
(*) Romans -> Pope&Co, Bond of Italian Cities -> Italy
(*) Summeries -> Summeries & Akkadiers -> Babylon -> Kalief of Bagdad -> ? -> Irak
(*) Celts -> Scots, ? , ?
(*) China -> China, Taiwan
(*) Korea -> N-Korea, Z-Korea



The Goths are actually a german/scnadinavian tribe and were barbarian.

Originally posted by Ultraworld


Your list violates your own definition.
eg: Why are the balts 1 and the dutch and flemings not.

Click to expand...

The Dutch and Flemings are grouped together

Originally posted by Ultraworld
The Goths are actually a german/scnadinavian tribe and were barbarian.

Click to expand...

In linguistic terms, the Germans are West Germanic, the Scandinavians are north Germanic, the Goths were in the other category, East Germanic.

Germanic Languages Tree

Yes, the Romans called the Goths barbarians, but the Greeks called the Romans barbarians: doesn't mean much!

Originally posted by Ultraworld
What about the Franks.

Click to expand...

Really, that post was aweful. You say that the Goths were Germanic/ Scandinavian as if that should exclude them, and then you ask "what about the Franks"

The Netherlanders and northern Germans are the descendents of the Franks. That is good enough.

But, here is a tree:

• 
  Mycenaeans & Minoans > Greeks > Byzantines > modern Greeks
  
  Romans> Western Christendom > French, Spanish, Germans, Poles, Scots, Magyars, etc
  ............> Byzantium > Orthodox Slavs >Russians,Bulgarians,Serbs
  
  Celts > Scots, Irish, Gauls, Britons
  
  Germanic > Franks > Germans (incl.Austrians), Netherlanders, Swiss
  ...............> Saxons > English
  ...............> Goths
  ...............> Scandinavians
  
  Etruscans > Romans > etc
  
  Illyrians > Albanians
  
  Slavs > Russians, Serbs, Poles, Czechs, etc
  
  Balts > Prussians, Pommeranians, Letts, Lithuanians, etc
  
  Steppe Nomads > Magyars, Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Turks
  
  Iberians > Basques
  
  

Originally posted by Pembroke
If you wanted to do it the "proper" way you shouldn't have any nations, states, or political formations as civs, because they tend to be tied to some age or historical situation. Instead the civs should rather be loose cultural groupings, or ethnicities which are more likely to survive across time (prime example: the Jews).

In Europe you could take as a base the Indo-European language groups as language tends to correlate with cultural groups. Thus you would have:

Greeks
Celts (which includes Gauls, Welsh, Scots, Irish, etc.)
Italian (which includes Latins, French, Spanish, etc.)
German (which includes English, Dutch, Scandinavian, etc.)
Slavs (which includes Russian, Polish, etc.)
Balts
Albans

But who ever heard of a "Great Alban Civilization"? Well, perhaps no-one, but if you think about it, that applies only to our particular run of the civilization. Perhaps if they had got a better starting location and chosen a wiser initial build strategy they would now be a major world power. After all I have played plenty of games where I have wiped out the Americans, the English, or the Russians in the early B.C.s ...

Civ is about possibilities, not what really happened in the OTL.

OTOH having a purist collection of civs might not be the ideal solution either, because sometimes I plainly just _want_ to play the Roman Empire.

Click to expand...

Nice idea about languages but then you could add non Indo European languages as well:

Etruscans
Basques
Hungarians
Finnish-Estonians (the last two can be grouped)
Turks
(the last three are somewhat related).

Turks are NOT european.

Calgacus: Your last tree seems good but of course there ar much more germ. tribes (eg Frisians, Anglos, etc.)

Originally posted by Ultraworld
Turks are NOT european.

Click to expand...

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but you've won me over

You're arguments are so good; they are irrefutable in fact. There is no way that anyone could consider the Turks European from now on.

turks don't speak a european language
turks don't have the christian/european culture
don't live in europe
etc
etc
etc

Originally posted by Ultraworld

don't live in europe

Click to expand...

Yes they do! There are more Turks living in Europe than there are Danes!

Originally posted by Ultraworld
turks don't speak a european language

Click to expand...

Well, since they live in Europe, they therefore do speak a European language

Originally posted by Ultraworld
turks don't have the christian/european culture

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Their culture is highly like other "European" cultures. Go there and you'll see.

Not only is Turkey a potential member of the EU, but they also participate in the Eurovision Song Contest. Now if that is not convincing, I don't know what is.

I vote for having

Spartans
Macedoneans (spelling??)
Atheneans

(possible ancient greek scenario here?)

Originally posted by Pembroke
German (which includes English, Dutch, Scandinavian, etc.)

Click to expand...

Can't blurring the lines between Saxons and Vikings be attributed to Nazi propaganda?

I don't think Scandinavians and English/Dutch can really be clumped together as one.

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Civilizations are linked to historical situations. Victorian Britain was a civilization, but accurately reproducing the recipe required to create such civilizations is totally beyond the realms of Civ3.

It would be easier to pick a certain time (i.e. 500BC) and just list those civilizations... then the game could be played from different eras and have a different selection of civs for each.

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If you start with Britons, Romans and Saxons in Civ3... you will never be able to create Victorian Britain.

If you start with French, English, Spanish... you will never be able to create the USA.

If you start with Russia, Great Britain, USA... you will never be able to create the EU (just speculating on distant future).

The game is a misnomer that can only be fixed with an formula involving Government/Races/History combined with the creation of Dominions*. Ofcourse, it would highly unlikely to replay Roman + Briton + Saxon = England.... but you would get an evolution with new civs phasing in where the old phase out

* Britannia being a Dominion of the Roman Empire... Canada being a Dominion of the British Empire... and so forth. The only substancial difference in the two examples being that Britannia was plunged into being an autonimous power against it's will when Roman forces abandoned it, and Canada being gradually awarded it's independence within a sphere of mutual respect. The gaming model I devised (and suggested to Firaxis) would not disinguish between the two.

Originally posted by stormbind
...
6. Vikings*
7. Gauls
8. Huns

* I don't know much about them but there was another scandinavian civ in Sweden, and I think they survived to this day with less interference from the Vikings than their close proximity would suggest.

Click to expand...

Are you thinking of the Sami people, maybe?

If so they _do_ survive, but they lived (and still lives) not only in Sweden but in the norhtern part sof Norway, Sweden and Finland.

I honestly don't know. I discovered them when reading about Scandinavian Christmas which explained an old Swedish concept that a man dressed in green would come in through the door once a year and leave presents for children. When I mentioned this to Swedish friends, they were like "Nope, we have Father Christmas - silly!"

The houses of these scandinavian peoples were domed, with one circular "door" cut in the roof that doubled as a chimney.

Vikings did visit and pillage but not in great numbers. The "native Swedes" were not conquered by the Vikings.

Does that sound like the Sami people?

Well about "the green man":

It's true that the swedish incarnation of "Santa Claus/Father Christmas" (we call him "Jultomten") is not tradionally bright red,
rather grey, greybrown or greygreen (like all clothes were more or less a century or so ago).

And he comes thru the door, and not the chimney.

So you're not completly wrong about that.
Nowadays though, were getting more and more disneyfied..


I dont know what this has to do with the "other" people you mention, though...

The Samis (or Laps, as you can call them to, but they themself prefer Sami) tradionally lived in "kåtor", similar to northamerican indians tipis and/or the mongolians yurtas, but I dont believe many of them had the door in the roof...