Éa III, Sword & Sorcery (early versions) Balance Discussion

[zoommooz11]

Is there any reason NOT to convert all your witches into mages, and have the adding research as sages, and getting the greater benefit of mana conversion.

The reason I ask is because of the "mage are less ..... then wizards (can't remember the word---page 10) and necromancer cannot become them" (vice versa can mages become necromancers?). So basically, do you have to 'save' a witch to become a necromancer

 

[jekke]

Thank you all for your answers,
so basically if you don't want to fight a war just yet, the best answer is probably to expand more and spam improvements everywhere (and pay for them). However, money is never the problem for me in Ea, don't know if that's the same for you guys, and I almost never play as a merchant nation and very rarely open a trade route with foreigners.

If the druid casts Ea blessing, it can easily turn the LT strength up to 30 or so... this basically means 30 choppings, which a) is quite tedious and b) gets you a crazy lot of timber. In my not-so-recent game (I believe it was Ea 7f) I got something like 60-70 timber. And with timber you can make lots of money; interestingly, you only can sell 5 copies of copper (ok, maybe 9 if you're smart and trade 4 copies for 6 gpt first, and then 5 more for 7 more gpt, sometimes it works this way). However, I managed to sell smth like 20 timber to one AI, each time full price and we weren't friendly or something.

This, in principle, can be seen as a exploit; say, the LT strength is about 30, which means every three turns it gets back. It takes three turns to chop a forest; so every 5-6 turns you get 2 timber per worker (and per tile), and a worker costs how much? 2 gpt? Now, two timber you can sell for 3 gpt, the trade lasts 30 turns, right? In 30 turns you get 2*(5 or 6)=10-12 timber which can be sold for, say, 14-18 gpt (4 timber per 6 gpt or 5 timber for 7 gpt). But anyway, everyone has soo much money in Ea that these numbers hardly matter.

===
While typing this little commercial overview, another thing came to my mind I wanted to share with you some time ago. When the AI has the last copy of a regular luxury resource (wool, gems etc, anything they get from tiles and improvements), in Ea (as well as in the base Civ) they sell it for 3 luxuries, as usual. However, luxury resources they get from buildings (ale, spirit, porcelain etc) can be traded 1:1 even if that's their last copy.

 

[Doopliss]

-Sidhe GPs are really unpredictable - I can play pretty much the exact same way in two games (ultra-early specialist), and get my second GP on turn 35 in one game and turn 75 in the other. I suppose you can't really change that without overhauling the GP-spawning system, but it's serious enough that I might suggest overhauling the GP-spawning system.

-Proselytism can overpower Weave worship pretty effortlessly, and there isn't much a Pantheist can do about it aside from getting used to -1f on their tiles. World Weave, aside from being absurdly expensive, doesn't really cut it since you can't control where it converts people. In fact, I'm not sure the World Conversion processes can be viably used for anything.

-At 18 ranged strength for a T4 tech, Marksmen seem pretty crazy overpowered - Arquebusiers have 15 ranged strength, and they're T5 with a massive pile of required techs (though I guess they have bonuses versus melee). The idea seems to be that they're balanced by Yew's rarity, but this doesn't moderate heavy archers so much as it makes fewer civs capable of going heavy archers. Whenever I cobble together 8 or so Yew Marksmen have pretty much carried wars for me. I can only imagine the horror that would occur if someone went Crecy (free Yew, +30% archer strength).

-Did Saltworks get nerfed? Because I'm reasonably sure the Saltworks was fine when it gave food from salt as well as gold. It might just be a casualty of the auto-generated tooltips.

-Conjuration has a rather weird skill cap to it. A couple Conjuration levels (or a handful of non-Conjuration levels) with Arcana Primus is enough to summon Red Drakes, decent amounts of Abyssal Creatures and Type 2 demons. Likewise, only being able to teleport 20 tiles in a turn is more than a bit #firstworldproblems. Arcana civs can get pretty much all of Conjuration's goodies without sinking any GP levels into it.

-Going for Mu/O/Segoyim (Arcana policies) without unlocking and turning down Lemuria (and why would anyone turn down Lemuria?) is sort of problematic. My first two Thaumaturges were feeling very silly as they wandered around waiting for me to research Thaumaturgy. Segoyim might well be worth refusing it or rigging it so you finish Thaumaturgy just after getting your civ, but Mu/O don't seem worth the trouble unless someone beats you to Lemuria. Maybe opening Arcana could let you build Towers as well as the Thaumaturgy tech, just to give the resulting Thaumaturges something to do?

-Speaking of Segoyim, Pantheism and Arcana work really weirdly together. The major draws in Arcana are buffs to Thaumaturges, and the major draw in Pantheism is cut-price Thaumaturges that don't benefit from said buffs. So either you go for the Thaumaturges and avoid taking the 'free Druid' policy until you spawn a third one, leaving your economy limping along, or go deep into Pantheism and then just take Socio Arcana for the spare mana. Normally I wouldn't complain about certain policy trees having poor synergy, but if there's a whole civ built around the combo it might be a problem.

-So far I've yet to find a decent use for the Culture side of Tradition beyond going heavy into Artists. Folkart's tile improvement culture bonuses are theoretically nice and early-hitting, but I never find myself working enough Plantations/Quarries to make it worthwhile (in part because Planations are bad, but I've already whined about that). As for Crafting, I never come close to enough "buff tile improvement" buildings to get any real benefit from +1 culture each - basically never more than one per-city. I'd almost prefer the Amphitheatre/Theatre buffs, and they come with Barding bonuses attached. The Arts' culture building buffs seem very good, particularly now that its lateness doesn't destroy its value, but as the single most prerequisite-heavy policy in the game it's a lot to ask for in exchange for more policies down the road.

 

[iffi]

-At 18 ranged strength for a T4 tech, Marksmen seem pretty crazy overpowered - Arquebusiers have 15 ranged strength, and they're T5 with a massive pile of required techs (though I guess they have bonuses versus melee). The idea seems to be that they're balanced by Yew's rarity, but this doesn't moderate heavy archers so much as it makes fewer civs capable of going heavy archers. Whenever I cobble together 8 or so Yew Marksmen have pretty much carried wars for me. I can only imagine the horror that would occur if someone went Crecy (free Yew, +30% archer strength).

-So far I've yet to find a decent use for the Culture side of Tradition beyond going heavy into Artists. Folkart's tile improvement culture bonuses are theoretically nice and early-hitting, but I never find myself working enough Plantations/Quarries to make it worthwhile (in part because Planations are bad, but I've already whined about that). As for Crafting, I never come close to enough "buff tile improvement" buildings to get any real benefit from +1 culture each - basically never more than one per-city.

Warrior-trained lvl 10 Marksmen are pretty decent. Having several is so nice that I have stopped using siege units for city captures. Maybe a cap of 2 per Yew resource? But Yew does not aggregate to one area like Elephants tend to do. Also, often I have 4 or less Iron which I use for melee units so no Bombards. And Naphta is also quite rare so no guarantee of Fire Trebuchets either.

As for the Tradition policies, I could say the same for Pantheism middle and right-side path. But I just have to pop those to get the goodies in the end. I think it is fine to have not so earth-shattering policies mixed with essential ones. Especially now that the policy gain speed has been upped to a decent level.

 

[darkedone02]

One thing that I wish to see is a reduction of turns on making these books, making a arcane tower, and others... I dislike the 25 turns on each of them and wish there was bonuses to reduce the time, such as being nearby with a marble or stone resources will reduce the time by -25% leaving only 20 turns for building's only... and for books, it's best if you have at least loads of sawmills on forests that provided at least 5 yews to reduce the time by -5%, each extra 5 yews will decrease the time up to a maximum of -25%. I also think to further reduce the time besides collecting yew is magical resources that make ink, such as possibly cinnabar (at least 2) will decrease by -10%, having up to 6 cinnabars will decrease it by a maximum of -25%, if you have both yew and cinnabars maxed out, you have at least -50% discount on making mooks... leaving you at least 13 turns to make 1 book... if you was busy making a book during this process, it should also counted depending how much turns you had remaining (if you had the -50% discount, and your 13 turns away, your next turn will automatically complete it).

 

[jekke]

-Proselytism can overpower Weave worship pretty effortlessly, and there isn't much a Pantheist can do about it aside from getting used to -1f on their tiles. World Weave, aside from being absurdly expensive, doesn't really cut it since you can't control where it converts people. In fact, I'm not sure the World Conversion processes can be viably used for anything.

-At 18 ranged strength for a T4 tech, Marksmen seem pretty crazy overpowered - Arquebusiers have 15 ranged strength, and they're T5 with a massive pile of required techs (though I guess they have bonuses versus melee). The idea seems to be that they're balanced by Yew's rarity, but this doesn't moderate heavy archers so much as it makes fewer civs capable of going heavy archers. Whenever I cobble together 8 or so Yew Marksmen have pretty much carried wars for me. I can only imagine the horror that would occur if someone went Crecy (free Yew, +30% archer strength).

can't agree more with these points. Pantheism need some mechanism to fight off a foreign religion, true.

 

[Pazyryk]

I'll change World Weave and the analogous Azzandarayasna conversion processes for v8. Maybe they should prioritize homeland cities first, maybe those without a majority religion first, then homeland cities of the wrong religion, then foreign cities. (Anra process should stay diffuse as it is now.) IIRC they all require at least one follower in a city to affect it. Maybe we need some feedback too, like a floatup text from the city doing the process. Without any feedback it's hard to know whether the effect is worthwhile or not.


Edit: Hmm... Maybe the simplest solution is to move Marksmanship up one tier. It's still possible for a "primitive" civ because there are not many prereqs. The problem I see is comparison with Heavy Infantry, which is sort of the "base T4 unit".

Edit2: The other thing about both Marksmen and Sagittarii is that they were originally intended as "elete" units. There wasn't even a tech before, just a level requirement for upgrading to these. I think maybe what we need for v8 is both. I'll move tech up to T5 and add a lvl 6 requirement for upgrading to these (meaning they can't be built: you have to upgrade from a lvl 6 Bowman or Bowed Cavalry, respectively).


Previous post (still valid but somewhat beside the point):
[[The consideration for Arquebusiers is that the military unit is secondary. The Machinery tech has other good stuff and leads to Steam Power, which is likely to be the focus for some civs. Civs going the Machinery/Steam Power focus are likely to somewhat research-oriented anyway. Marksmanship is purely military and is a dead-end tech.

The other thing to consider is that Éa gimped ranged units a lot. It's not just the range 1. All of the combat effects for ranged attacks are reduced by 25 - 33% from base for a given strength value. One of the goals of this adjustment was to make, for example, a 15/15 rng/str unit comparable to a 15 str melee unit. Should I gimp the ranged combat settings more?

(Also, you are seeing the +1 for Sidhe archers.)]]

 

[BrokenSky]

Paper mill and printing press should reduce book build time maybe? Does the time taken reflect the period of time required to just write the book, or also the period required to circulate copies to actually start getting the improved knowledge to your citizens?

Maybe change world conversion to local conversion, increasing the religious pressure both in and from the city doing the conversion?

The reason that CC units are generally stronger than ranged is that previously, as ranged units generally had 2 range, they would pretty consistently get 1 shot into a melee unit that was in combat with just them (since range reducing terrain also slowed movement). This attack did not inflict damage to the ranged unit, unlike a melee attack. The balance therefore was such that the units should be comparable, given that the ranged unit would knock off a reasonable chunk of the melee unit's HP before getting into close combat, so the melee unit should be strong enough to make up for it. Since in Ea the ranged units have generally got range 1, the situation is changed, since now the attacking unit gets a bonus regardless of which one it is. I'm not sure how this should be balanced, but to test I would recommend using a model of a tier X ranged unit and the same tier melee unit fighting in hills and fighting in plains.

 

[Civitar]

I always considered Tomes to work more or less like this: some Sage/Mage basically buries him/herself in studies, all the while collecting knowledge to write this masterpiece, their life's work really. Then once complete, the Tome is stored in some library where other mages/sages can consult the Tome if needed.
So the 25 turns to me represents the time spent gathering information, studying, and actually writing the Tome. Then when it is finished it is not copied, but stored as a treasure.
So, mod-wise, I'd like something along the lines of different resources helping the creation of Tomes. So for example, a Sage in a coastal city can write the Tome of the Leviathan faster and with better effects, but the same Sage in an inland mountain village with no science buildings, no opportunities to observe the habits of marine animals, etc...
So certain resources/locations/buildings will all enhance the Tomes written by Sages, in both the amount of time required to write the Tome and the effect of the Tome once written.

 

[Doopliss]

T5 and a "Warrior/deep Militarism only" level requirement for Marksmen seems pretty harsh - I imagine I'd revert back to Crossbows and Arquebuses at that price if there weren't some lovely goodies to fill the gap.
I do agree that, if Bowmen are supposed to be roughly as useful as Medium Infantry, non-siege ranged units as a whole need a modest nerfing (or, probably better, buffing melee). Being able to attack without taking damage in return is just way too useful when you're trying to sustain momentum.

 

[Pazyryk]

There's sort of two balancing issues here that I'm trying to keep separate:

• Making a 15/15 rng/str unit very roughly on par with 15 str unit. I don't have a strong reason for this, except that it's simpler to keep track of and there's no reason not to have it that way.
• Getting the tiers straitened out. Units aren't supposed to be equivalent within tier, but at least close enough that a T4 unit isn't better than a T5.

Not only do ranged attacks not take damage, but I'm pretty sure BNW has them do a few more hps damage than non-ranged attacks. I think it should be the reverse: ranged attacks should be more of a "sapping" effect, while direct melee does more substantial damage (while taking damage). This is all controled by a few GameDefines I've been fiddling with: RANGE_ATTACK_RANGED_DEFENDER_MOD, RANGE_ATTACK_SAME_STRENGTH_MIN_DAMAGE, RANGE_ATTACK_SAME_STRENGTH_POSSIBLE_EXTRA_DAMAGE. All are reduced from BNW by 25-30%, though I'm not sure if that is enough.

Marksmen are definitely intended to be T5, and superior to Arquebusiers. That's partly having to do with the techs as I explained above. But it also seems fitting from a fantasy point of view that the elite archer unit should be among the most powerful units in the game.

Is a lvl 6 requirement for Marksmen and Sagittarii too high? My thinking is that if you go for this tech, you've basically made a commitment to strong archery warfare. (It could even be defensive: if you routinely get attacked and maintain 5 or 6 Bowmen as your main homeland defense.) Can I change the lvl without giving up the concept?

 

[Doopliss]

Warriors and Militarism make the leveling system a bit weird. A Logistics Warrior could train units to that level without really breaking a sweat, and while I've never went deep into Militarism the +experience stuff seems like it would add up, but I don't think I've ever seen a unit get even to level 5 by pure fighting. And I suppose if you dropped it to Level 3 or 4 even a non-Logistics Warrior could manage it with no problems. I might want to see the Train action severely nerfed or, despite how much I gripe about GPs sitting on their laurels, cut entirely.

 

[Pazyryk]

Well, since we're in the balance thread, I should mention that I'm nerfing GP modifiers from the series promotions somewhat. That'll effect everything they do (Warrior training xp, etc.).

It's now:
I - XVIII : +3 6 8 9 11 12 14 15 16 17 18 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 (cumulative, rounded down)

I'll bring that down so it's something like 2 pts for the first couple levels, then 1 after that.


Back on regular unit experience, I think I'll drop the barb xp limit. I guess it's there is base Civ5 so you don't farm xp by sitting next to an encampment. But in Éa we have other ways to get xp up, so it doesn't seem like much of a concern. Also, base Civ5 has some ubber promotions (if you stay narrow on the "rough vs smooth" promo series) that we don't have in Éa. So a level 6 unit is actually tamer in the mod than in base.

 

[BrokenSky]

Maybe make marksmen not as strong as they currently are, but give them more range? Basicly they're accurate to a longer range due to being ... well .. better shots.

With regards to Tomes, if the 25 turns is how long it takes to research and write the book, then having research buildings, as well as tome specific features, resources, buildings and specialists in the city should reduce the time it takes to write, since the required knowledge is more easily to hand. The general time it takes them should be probably somewhere from 20 to 30 turns, dependant on bonuses? Maybe having knowledge techs (philosophy etc?) slightly increase both the time it takes and the effect (the scientist takes more time to do more thorough tests, and the bigger bonus reflects the better understanding s/he has).

 

[Pazyryk]

No, I want to keep range 2 for siege only (plus naval cannons). And as a said above, I want Marksmen to stay among the most powerful units. So that means upping prereq(s) rather than gimping unit.

Sorry, I haven't followed the Tomes argument above. Is the "time to complete" a balance issue? Or is this more of a "cool new mechanics" issue? (I'm receptive to both. But 1st is priority right now.)

 

[Civitar]

I think that with Tomes, some don't like the time to complete, because it is always 25 turns. A cool new mechanic would be ways to shorten that time.

Also, first post with new avatar! Thanks Doopliss.

 

[Doopliss]

I mentioned this a little bit in the policies thread, but I'd typically argue against adding complexity in unintuitive places. While I would certainly like it if tomes and Arcane Towers (goddamn those Arcane Towers) were faster to build, I'd rather there not be more than one or two variables going into it (with one of those variables likely being something dedicated to it like a policy). If something's going to be complicated, it's perhaps better that it's complicated straight-up.

How does it feel to have a rugby team logo for an avatar, Civ?

 

[Civitar]

@Doopliss: It's a rugby logo? Now I'm doubly glad I used it! Though since when are rugby logos cool-looking?
I played left wing and kick returner for the Lugano rugby club, though we were the uncool Beavers in very cool uniforms. Since we moved away I'm goalkeeper for the local soccer team (though I've heard an offer from a higher league team to join), so have no time for rugby anymore. Too bad, but I nearly got cut in half more times than I can count due to being about a head taller than everyone but substantially thinner (even as a small kid, I was a bit of a scarecrow). So not all bad.
Back on topic, I agree that mechanics shouldn't get too complicated, at least not as is visible to the player. Though, I still like the idea of writing the Tome of Metallurgy in a city with a Forge taking less time than in a city with only a River Dock (for example).

 

[Llednar Twem]

Back on regular unit experience, I think I'll drop the barb xp limit. I guess it's there is base Civ5 so you don't farm xp by sitting next to an encampment. But in Éa we have other ways to get xp up, so it doesn't seem like much of a concern. Also, base Civ5 has some ubber promotions (if you stay narrow on the "rough vs smooth" promo series) that we don't have in Éa. So a level 6 unit is actually tamer in the mod than in base.

I feel like this change would fit Éa from a conceptual standpoint as well as a mechanical one. In base Civ V barbarians really aren't that dangerous. It makes sense that your soldiers could only learn so much fighting them as opposed to actual armies. In Éa on the other hand I've often found the barbarians to be just as dangerous as rival civs, if not more so.

Speaking of barbarians, what's the status on implementing the militia drafting half of the civil service policy? I've been trying a cultural Dökkálfar build recently and that ability would probably go a long way toward keeping barbarians from constantly pillaging my rather vital pastures early game.

Edit: As for maintaining weave worship, have those of you having problems with it been building temples? I don't think anything mentions it in-game, but according to the manual they provide extra pressure to their related cult, which may be enough to ward off other religions. I wouldn't really know either way myself, since somehow it's just never come up as an issue for me.

 

[darkedone02]

I think that with Tomes, some don't like the time to complete, because it is always 25 turns. A cool new mechanic would be ways to shorten that time.

Also, first post with new avatar! Thanks Doopliss.

Yes, read the following post about the tomes discussion, we wish to find a way to find a way to reduce to time to make these tomes by finding bonuses or something else. I say with resources to help reduce the time to make tomes because it's logical that if you don't have any trees to make paper, how the sage going to write a book about it all? Others say to make it more environmental to help fasten the process better.

Both sounds good for tome making... also the printing press and university that teaches people how to write and make books and so can help reduce the build time on these tomes...