serttech2003
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2003
- Messages
- 143
001 Monarch Series--Germany
- Thread starter serttech2003
- Start date
albatros13
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2015
- Messages
- 37
Okay, i finished the 10 turns. The first turn was the longest(like 2 hours).
Anyways, i understand the farm logic. I even calculated that stuff - With 3 food per tile(usually irrigated grasslands) and 3 citizens, there can be 3 more citizens doing science, though with one minus food. That means about 2.25 science per 1 tile(cause 4 tiles are used and one can be plain or even a hill(town itself)). Of course, it's all standard logic, but there are so many variations we shouldn't paint everything black or white.
So i calculated how things would be with max corruption and using all citizens on tiles, 12 citizens and got about 1 uncorrupted commerce per tile. That is because courthouse gives most(base commerce), then marketplace and bank gives commerce bonuses(+2 each) and library would give +2 science and take one wealth. University would just switch same amount of stuff from wealth to science(2). And of course i would mention that marketplaces and banks don't have maintenance costs thanks to smith and with monarch difficulty all the wonders from the medieval era belong to the player. Oh yeah, and harbors and stock exchanges too, don't have maintenance costs. And since harbors give bonus food, well, there is another layer where it can be used in corrupt cities.
Now, all the science farm ideology stands that everything is perfect and we all have plenty of grassland. Oh and it's before railroads. They change everything. But the usage of tiles with citizens can be also hills and... mountains... and extra resources, which change stuff too.
Btw, with corrupt city and with courthouse, the uncorrupted commerce is every 5fth - 1st is the base; then 4 goes to corruption; 1 is uncorrupted; then 4 goes again to corruption; next 1 is uncorrupted and so on.
And of course there is another layer - buying up libraries just to get the border expansion, then disbanding if really needed.
Now, the dreaded turns...
Preturn: Some micromanagement, including one which would give sun tzu next turn(-1 food), not the second.
Turn 1: Abandoned frankfurt(1 population). The area is not hopelessly corrupt and thus should be developed in standard manner(less cities, less maintenance costs). Of course, a lot of hills and mountains around, so irrigation should be standard. Got MILITARY TRADITION. Next is physics. Contacted japanese. Started magellan in 5nuremberg. Started building more workers and improvements. Oh yeah, got SUN TZU wonder. Killed some barbs in the western jungle. The babylonian ship went back to it's homeland.
Turn 2: Bunch of harbors bought(no maintenance cost). Spread some workers around. Notice that cuzco has a lot of corrupted commerce - about 12(?) comes from tourist attraction. Courthouse, of course.
Turn 3: Some improvements(marketplaces) built; Bring lux rate down to 10%.
Turn 4: Prebuild wonder with a palace. Spread some some workers more around.
Turn 5: Got PHYSICS. Theory of Gravity is next. Abandoned another 1 population town. Other cities need the tiles and they are not 90% corrupt. Plus it was on flooded plain, thus reduces food production on this tile by 2(with railroads it will be 3)
Turn 6: Babylons want alliance against chinese. Decline.
Turn 7: Got LEONARDO WORKSHOP. Palace expanded(was not expanded one time, thus expanded 2 times now). Japanese finish Great Library. Settled on some places in the western jungle. Also, established some science farms(was it turn 7 or 8 now
).
Turn 8: Just some improvements built(marketplaces and stuff) . Lux rate to 0% with no problems.
Turn 9: Got THEORY OF GRAVITY. Next is MAGNETISM. Switched palace prebuilding to NEWTON wonder. Upgraded some knights here and there. Only 15 gold per upgrade thanks to Leonardo.
Turn 10: Nothing much, just some building going on and workers working
Now, i noticed we had only 2 embassies built. Is it deliberate?
Btw, 5 luxuries give content citizens till 11 population with marketplaces. Just add temple and we have everything covered(population 12), no need for the lux rate except when war weariness happens.
Cologne and Bremen should have some irrigated tiles - for the hills, mountains and forest tundra. Some workers are working on this. Also, the city producing magellan - 2 more irrigation tiles so that the mountain with the gold could be used(plus the bonus shield).
There is a fish on the coast up north from Berlin. Little corruption expected - a harbor town?
Didn't see a problem with settlers though, they don't cost much when bought. Corrupted cities are the best to buy from(full food with 6 population, springs back to 5 immediately afterwards). Maybe i should have used more aggressive settler strategy.
Oh yeah, built some libraries(bought with mostly 120-140 gold) in 2-3 corrupted cities for some border expansion. Dunno, if you guys really want, you can destroy those libraries after the border expansion.
I don't know what to do with the eastern island. Two of the towns have less than 90% corruption and the rest are meant to be science farms? Waiting for electricity for irrigation?
Did some cavalry building, but it was really just a filler. Same with some cathedrals - they do cost maintenance, but since we have sistine, there is a chance to get the WLTC(WLTK variant), especially with 10% lux rate(if you fancy that).
There is one transport moving with three units, so that the next person playing has an option to surprise attack on some strategic point(luxury/resource) or go on slave raid(you know, stealing workers). We could also do some pillaging runs with musketmans and stuff on the second continent without much problem on our own continent, cause other countries don't know even astronomy. The sooner the better. But i don't know is it okay with other players.
Oh yeah, some stats before and after.
Before: 1275 income; 547 corruption; 78 entertainment; 408 science with 50% rate; 73 maintenance; 28 unit upkeep. 6.5k gold.
After: 1572 income; 706 corruption(weee); 0 entertainment; 467 science with 50% rate; 76 maintenance(guess sun tzu helped); 16 unit upkeep. 5.7k gold(i used buying quite heavily actually).
In overall, i felt like playing some sim game, but i guess it was my first succession game, so yeah, don't expect much. Umm, what's next? Am i qualified?
Edit: Whoa, i get it now. With hopelessly corrupt towns, it's better to hold them at population one. It gives 3-4 uncorrupted commerce(either money or science) and one shield per tile. Further, building towns at tundras, hills and deserts yield a bonus food(from 1 to 2, that means every that kind of tile supports one specialist). Now i understand the ICS. Is it legal in this game or we still go with the pseudo-moral stuff with 2-2.25 commerce per tile? If we go this route, it would be logical to put a town in every desert and hill tile in corrupt places(like some patches in the west and bigger area in south).
Edit of the edit: Corrections - new dortmund shouldn't do an aqueduct and vitcos shouldn't do a courthouse. Just wealth.
Edit of the edit of the edit: The corrupted towns which has max pop 6 could do a settler pump for science farms. The rate of return of investment of science farms using grasslands would be about 30 turns(when calculating pure commerce) even when buying settlers with 116 gold(its advisable to build settlers for some turns in classic manner to curb the cost 3 gold per turn(wealth would give 1 gold and buying cost per shield is 4, thus 4-1=3)). With 1 population science farms it's almost same, about 30 turns to return 116 commerce(30 money and 90 science).
Anyways, i understand the farm logic. I even calculated that stuff - With 3 food per tile(usually irrigated grasslands) and 3 citizens, there can be 3 more citizens doing science, though with one minus food. That means about 2.25 science per 1 tile(cause 4 tiles are used and one can be plain or even a hill(town itself)). Of course, it's all standard logic, but there are so many variations we shouldn't paint everything black or white.
So i calculated how things would be with max corruption and using all citizens on tiles, 12 citizens and got about 1 uncorrupted commerce per tile. That is because courthouse gives most(base commerce), then marketplace and bank gives commerce bonuses(+2 each) and library would give +2 science and take one wealth. University would just switch same amount of stuff from wealth to science(2). And of course i would mention that marketplaces and banks don't have maintenance costs thanks to smith and with monarch difficulty all the wonders from the medieval era belong to the player. Oh yeah, and harbors and stock exchanges too, don't have maintenance costs. And since harbors give bonus food, well, there is another layer where it can be used in corrupt cities.
Now, all the science farm ideology stands that everything is perfect and we all have plenty of grassland. Oh and it's before railroads. They change everything. But the usage of tiles with citizens can be also hills and... mountains... and extra resources, which change stuff too.
Btw, with corrupt city and with courthouse, the uncorrupted commerce is every 5fth - 1st is the base; then 4 goes to corruption; 1 is uncorrupted; then 4 goes again to corruption; next 1 is uncorrupted and so on.
And of course there is another layer - buying up libraries just to get the border expansion, then disbanding if really needed.
Now, the dreaded turns...
Preturn: Some micromanagement, including one which would give sun tzu next turn(-1 food), not the second.
Turn 1: Abandoned frankfurt(1 population). The area is not hopelessly corrupt and thus should be developed in standard manner(less cities, less maintenance costs). Of course, a lot of hills and mountains around, so irrigation should be standard. Got MILITARY TRADITION. Next is physics. Contacted japanese. Started magellan in 5nuremberg. Started building more workers and improvements. Oh yeah, got SUN TZU wonder. Killed some barbs in the western jungle. The babylonian ship went back to it's homeland.
Turn 2: Bunch of harbors bought(no maintenance cost). Spread some workers around. Notice that cuzco has a lot of corrupted commerce - about 12(?) comes from tourist attraction. Courthouse, of course.
Turn 3: Some improvements(marketplaces) built; Bring lux rate down to 10%.
Turn 4: Prebuild wonder with a palace. Spread some some workers more around.
Turn 5: Got PHYSICS. Theory of Gravity is next. Abandoned another 1 population town. Other cities need the tiles and they are not 90% corrupt. Plus it was on flooded plain, thus reduces food production on this tile by 2(with railroads it will be 3)
Turn 6: Babylons want alliance against chinese. Decline.
Turn 7: Got LEONARDO WORKSHOP. Palace expanded(was not expanded one time, thus expanded 2 times now). Japanese finish Great Library. Settled on some places in the western jungle. Also, established some science farms(was it turn 7 or 8 now
).Turn 8: Just some improvements built(marketplaces and stuff) . Lux rate to 0% with no problems.
Turn 9: Got THEORY OF GRAVITY. Next is MAGNETISM. Switched palace prebuilding to NEWTON wonder. Upgraded some knights here and there. Only 15 gold per upgrade thanks to Leonardo.
Turn 10: Nothing much, just some building going on and workers working
Now, i noticed we had only 2 embassies built. Is it deliberate?
Btw, 5 luxuries give content citizens till 11 population with marketplaces. Just add temple and we have everything covered(population 12), no need for the lux rate except when war weariness happens.
Cologne and Bremen should have some irrigated tiles - for the hills, mountains and forest tundra. Some workers are working on this. Also, the city producing magellan - 2 more irrigation tiles so that the mountain with the gold could be used(plus the bonus shield).
There is a fish on the coast up north from Berlin. Little corruption expected - a harbor town?
Didn't see a problem with settlers though, they don't cost much when bought. Corrupted cities are the best to buy from(full food with 6 population, springs back to 5 immediately afterwards). Maybe i should have used more aggressive settler strategy.
Oh yeah, built some libraries(bought with mostly 120-140 gold) in 2-3 corrupted cities for some border expansion. Dunno, if you guys really want, you can destroy those libraries after the border expansion.
I don't know what to do with the eastern island. Two of the towns have less than 90% corruption and the rest are meant to be science farms? Waiting for electricity for irrigation?
Did some cavalry building, but it was really just a filler. Same with some cathedrals - they do cost maintenance, but since we have sistine, there is a chance to get the WLTC(WLTK variant), especially with 10% lux rate(if you fancy that).
There is one transport moving with three units, so that the next person playing has an option to surprise attack on some strategic point(luxury/resource) or go on slave raid(you know, stealing workers). We could also do some pillaging runs with musketmans and stuff on the second continent without much problem on our own continent, cause other countries don't know even astronomy. The sooner the better. But i don't know is it okay with other players.
Oh yeah, some stats before and after.
Before: 1275 income; 547 corruption; 78 entertainment; 408 science with 50% rate; 73 maintenance; 28 unit upkeep. 6.5k gold.
After: 1572 income; 706 corruption(weee); 0 entertainment; 467 science with 50% rate; 76 maintenance(guess sun tzu helped); 16 unit upkeep. 5.7k gold(i used buying quite heavily actually).
In overall, i felt like playing some sim game, but i guess it was my first succession game, so yeah, don't expect much. Umm, what's next? Am i qualified?
Edit: Whoa, i get it now. With hopelessly corrupt towns, it's better to hold them at population one. It gives 3-4 uncorrupted commerce(either money or science) and one shield per tile. Further, building towns at tundras, hills and deserts yield a bonus food(from 1 to 2, that means every that kind of tile supports one specialist). Now i understand the ICS. Is it legal in this game or we still go with the pseudo-moral stuff with 2-2.25 commerce per tile? If we go this route, it would be logical to put a town in every desert and hill tile in corrupt places(like some patches in the west and bigger area in south).
Edit of the edit: Corrections - new dortmund shouldn't do an aqueduct and vitcos shouldn't do a courthouse. Just wealth.
Edit of the edit of the edit: The corrupted towns which has max pop 6 could do a settler pump for science farms. The rate of return of investment of science farms using grasslands would be about 30 turns(when calculating pure commerce) even when buying settlers with 116 gold(its advisable to build settlers for some turns in classic manner to curb the cost 3 gold per turn(wealth would give 1 gold and buying cost per shield is 4, thus 4-1=3)). With 1 population science farms it's almost same, about 30 turns to return 116 commerce(30 money and 90 science).
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serttech2003
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2003
- Messages
- 143
this is my got it. If anyone esle wants in, take it from me. If not, I'll play tomorrow.
serttech2003
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2003
- Messages
- 143
almost done, have something up later today.
serttech2003
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2003
- Messages
- 143
First the turn log and save:
Its long and doesn't say too much since we aren't at war. I think we can stop with the turn logs and just post relevant information like when techs come in and when wonders are built.
Spoiler :
Its long and doesn't say too much since we aren't at war. I think we can stop with the turn logs and just post relevant information like when techs come in and when wonders are built.
serttech2003
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2003
- Messages
- 143
OK, here some notes and suggestions:
We don't need cathedrals anywhere. We need to stop making them. They are not worth the upkeep and don't add anything to our science drive. Better to create wealth and save cathedrals for prebuilds for other buildings we will need.We are only a few turns away from railroads, all workers should be headed to our core.
1. railroad our chosen productive core cites first. Stack native workers into stacks that can railroad in one turn, do the same for captured workers. If possible in core cities, mine where ever needed to max shields.
2. Create a railroad net to connect our cities.
3. Reduce our defense force to about 10 defenders, 15 attackers and 20 canons. With railroads that is all we need.
At this point, every city not chosed to be productive should be farming. Period. Extra citizens are turned into scientists. Everything is turned into money to fuel our research. 4 turn is the goal from here on out.
IF We were going for conquest we would be trying to turn every city we could into a unit producer. If we were going to domination, same thing. If we were going for culture, we would build temple-library-university-cols-caths in every city. But we are going for science, and we need gpt + beakers, as much and as many as possible. With railroads we need a small mobile attacking/defending force. At the most the AI will drop of between 2-8 units in a turn. We need to be able to deal with that, nothing else. UNLESS we lack a resource, but we control an entire contient and have access to a near by island that we can take when ever we want. Farms, scientists, and wealth is what we are looking for.
No courthouses, no barracks, nothings. Just wealth and scientists. The game is in the bag, its just a matter of how fast at this point.
If someone wants to take the game and branch off into conquest/domination or cultural win, we can start another thread. Might be a good idea to go back a few turns in order to get a better set up for that.
Currently we are allowed 130 units. 69 of those are workers, and while we could use more, we have enough to do what we want. We still have space for cities, so sneaking off a few settlers from our non-productive cities should be ok, even cash-rushing.
We only need 5-7 productive cities, non of which really even need a hospital if we add factories and manufacturing plants.
PREBUILDS
Currently we are building:
Newtons (which we need)
Magellons (which we don't since we will never see units on the other land masses)
Palace (which we don't want to build we are using it stockpile shields)
One of these will turn into Theory of Evolution (which ever is closest to finishing), for Hoovers we are going to be late in getting it started. It has to be on a river or lake so find a good spot, dump the palace build if necessary and start the palace. I'd recommend **4Salzburg**. Change **2Hamburg** to something else even if we lose the shields its ok.
Medicine comes in next turn. Keep our research to 4 turns. Might want to do some trading for LUXs from the other continent, maybe some gpt to fuel research.'
I'm sure there is something else, but I'll post it later.
We don't need cathedrals anywhere. We need to stop making them. They are not worth the upkeep and don't add anything to our science drive. Better to create wealth and save cathedrals for prebuilds for other buildings we will need.
1. railroad our chosen productive core cites first. Stack native workers into stacks that can railroad in one turn, do the same for captured workers. If possible in core cities, mine where ever needed to max shields.
2. Create a railroad net to connect our cities.
3. Reduce our defense force to about 10 defenders, 15 attackers and 20 canons. With railroads that is all we need.
At this point, every city not chosed to be productive should be farming. Period. Extra citizens are turned into scientists. Everything is turned into money to fuel our research. 4 turn is the goal from here on out.
IF We were going for conquest we would be trying to turn every city we could into a unit producer. If we were going to domination, same thing. If we were going for culture, we would build temple-library-university-cols-caths in every city. But we are going for science, and we need gpt + beakers, as much and as many as possible. With railroads we need a small mobile attacking/defending force. At the most the AI will drop of between 2-8 units in a turn. We need to be able to deal with that, nothing else. UNLESS we lack a resource, but we control an entire contient and have access to a near by island that we can take when ever we want. Farms, scientists, and wealth is what we are looking for.
If someone wants to take the game and branch off into conquest/domination or cultural win, we can start another thread. Might be a good idea to go back a few turns in order to get a better set up for that.
Currently we are allowed 130 units. 69 of those are workers, and while we could use more, we have enough to do what we want. We still have space for cities, so sneaking off a few settlers from our non-productive cities should be ok, even cash-rushing.
We only need 5-7 productive cities, non of which really even need a hospital if we add factories and manufacturing plants.
PREBUILDS
Currently we are building:
Newtons (which we need)
Magellons (which we don't since we will never see units on the other land masses)
Palace (which we don't want to build we are using it stockpile shields)
One of these will turn into Theory of Evolution (which ever is closest to finishing), for Hoovers we are going to be late in getting it started. It has to be on a river or lake so find a good spot, dump the palace build if necessary and start the palace. I'd recommend **4Salzburg**. Change **2Hamburg** to something else even if we lose the shields its ok.
Medicine comes in next turn. Keep our research to 4 turns. Might want to do some trading for LUXs from the other continent, maybe some gpt to fuel research.'
I'm sure there is something else, but I'll post it later.
serttech2003
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2003
- Messages
- 143
Play Order:
UP: Lord Plebian
on deck: albatros13
in the hole: serttech2003
UP: Lord Plebian
on deck: albatros13
in the hole: serttech2003
albatros13
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2015
- Messages
- 37
Space works for me.
'' Might want to do some trading for LUXs from the other continent, maybe some gpt to fuel research.''
Would be more efficient(and fun) to 'liberate' 1-2 lux-s from the other continent, though. I don't remember their locations though - how easy is to add another lux to our empire.
There are never too many workers, though - Easy to buy workers in corrupted towns, but with very high food, like in the western side of our continent.
If we want to make a lot of science farms, i highly recommend making 1 pop towns on deserts, hills and tundras(in corrupted areas of course). Takes a lot of food to get so many settlers, but very efficient per tile.
Have fun
'' Might want to do some trading for LUXs from the other continent, maybe some gpt to fuel research.''
Would be more efficient(and fun) to 'liberate' 1-2 lux-s from the other continent, though. I don't remember their locations though - how easy is to add another lux to our empire.
There are never too many workers, though - Easy to buy workers in corrupted towns, but with very high food, like in the western side of our continent.
If we want to make a lot of science farms, i highly recommend making 1 pop towns on deserts, hills and tundras(in corrupted areas of course). Takes a lot of food to get so many settlers, but very efficient per tile.
Have fun
serttech2003
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2003
- Messages
- 143
We can decided to liberate if we want, would be fun. We have the production for it. Just keep the 4 turn research going. Does that little island have any LUX we can "borrow?"
Lord Plebian
Chieftain
Looks like a good set of turns. I'll work on the railnet and all like serttech suggested. I may start working with the other continent, if we're far enough up in tech. It can be useful to sell them unnecessary techs at high prices to slow down their useful research. Will also look at selling luxes. Personally, I'm against an all out invasion of the other continent. However, if we see something we want on the island on "our" side of the map, I'm all for it. However, if I'm outvoted, I'm fine with that.
The only thing I disagree with is the idea that we don't really need hospitals. I think a few of our more productive cities could really benefit from the extra population. We have the luxes to support it.
Anyway, got it.
The only thing I disagree with is the idea that we don't really need hospitals. I think a few of our more productive cities could really benefit from the extra population. We have the luxes to support it.
Anyway, got it.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
Would be more fun -- but buying them (e.g. using all the Horses+Iron+Saltpeter+Luxes you now control, or the GPT that they're paying you for your techs) would likely be more efficient, since overseas liberation-wars tend to lead to WW under Republic...
YES! Whenever possible, build farms on tiles which would normally only give 0-1FPT
In a fully railed+irrigated Grassland farm with at least 3 farmers, it doesn't take many turns to amass sufficient food. Starting at Pop3, with everyone working the land, you'd get +5FPT net for 4T to Pop4 (new citizen gets Geeked), then +3FPT for 7T to Pop5, during which your Pop4-Geek will bring in 28 beakers (i.e. 28/11= 2.5 BPT per farm, multiplied by however farms you have), and even at 1SPT, you'd have put at least 11 shields into the box.
If you have sufficient Workers/Slaves, you could then plant+chop a Forest(s) in 1T just as you hit Pop5 and buy (or disband) the remaining ~10 shields (40g), and drop the farm back to Pop3, ready to start all over again. If your Workers are occupied elsewhere, or all the local Forest-able tiles have already been chopped, you simply let the town continue to grow naturally at +1FPT towards Pop6. This would need another 20T, which should be ample to build you a Settler at 1SPT, dropping the farm back to Pop3 (with a nearly full food-box), so your new Geek will be born within 1-2T, and your next 'natural' Settler-build will net you more beakers (at least 7*3+20*2*3=141, or 141/27 = 5.2 BPT per farm).
And don't forget that you can also use the semi-core areas to breed Settlers at 5-15 SPT (you're not going to be building units there, are you?). Either way, you'll be able to fill your continent (and your beaker-box!) pretty quickly.
serttech2003
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2003
- Messages
- 143
DO whatever you want, but just don't let the mission drift away from 4-turn research, prebuilds and spaceship parts.
albatros13
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2015
- Messages
- 37
You seem to have planted cities so close together it's kinda hard to gain anything from hospitals. Only places i see gains are coastal cities, where it's logical to build hospitals, cause coast generates good amount of money. For example those cities occupying east of our continent.
There are not many luxes we can take easily on the other continent though. Well, they are manageable and usually when i play alone i always deny the luxes whenever i can, cause ai-s just love sharing their resources&luxes and therefore get all together happily stronger.
Anyways, we don't have wines, silks and incense. The babylonians and chinese don't have anything(possibly), so we are left with the other three on the other main continent. Also, the map is not explored thoroughly, so we should get that done too - maybe the other islands have something and maybe when we get to see other resources, we have more visibility what we can do if we don't have all the required resources for space victory.
So, the indians have 2 silks near bombay, the coastal city, but it's close to the capital - quite risky. But if we would manage to get both luxes, it's we who trade the other silk to other civs, not the indians. In the same short war we could get Karachi, which has 1 wine. In overall, i would rate it not so good, but not bad either(cause two luxes nets WLTK).
The russians have only one coastal city with a lux - vladivostok and it's holding incense. Again, it's close to the capital and surrounded by other cities, so it would be even harder to hold it. I would rate it horrible.
The japanese hold two wines - Tokyo, which is close to the capital, and Edo, which i think is the best place to attack. Edo is not close to the capital and not far from our own continent(thus better supply of troops).
So my vote would be to attack japanese in a concentrated force towards edo and hold it. Then as soon as possible, make peace(with some goodies).
Of course, i'm all for some harder choices - but with more gains. And about war weariness - we are gaining more luxes AND we make the war as short as possible.
About those jungle tiles in the west - better to throw settlers onto them and that's it. 1 pop science towns.
I guess we are going republic throughout the whole game? The anarchy hit is too big i suppose.
..... I just looked at the last save and noticed some... stuff on the eastern side of our continent. I see that you just took the workers, left everything to hell and went to the core(like those were not the cores?). I mean... Bonn has 43% corruption, hannover 55%, bremen 58% and cologne 29%(!), without courthouses(!). (Edit: Okay, cologne has courthouse and that's why it has so low corruption) Plus three of them are coastal towns - bigger commerce production cities(same as with rivers). AND they are all producing just wealth. AND you are talking that science and wealth are the biggest stuff we need
P.S. the %-s were gotten from civassist.
There are not many luxes we can take easily on the other continent though. Well, they are manageable and usually when i play alone i always deny the luxes whenever i can, cause ai-s just love sharing their resources&luxes and therefore get all together happily stronger.
Anyways, we don't have wines, silks and incense. The babylonians and chinese don't have anything(possibly), so we are left with the other three on the other main continent. Also, the map is not explored thoroughly, so we should get that done too - maybe the other islands have something and maybe when we get to see other resources, we have more visibility what we can do if we don't have all the required resources for space victory.
So, the indians have 2 silks near bombay, the coastal city, but it's close to the capital - quite risky. But if we would manage to get both luxes, it's we who trade the other silk to other civs, not the indians. In the same short war we could get Karachi, which has 1 wine. In overall, i would rate it not so good, but not bad either(cause two luxes nets WLTK).
The russians have only one coastal city with a lux - vladivostok and it's holding incense. Again, it's close to the capital and surrounded by other cities, so it would be even harder to hold it. I would rate it horrible.
The japanese hold two wines - Tokyo, which is close to the capital, and Edo, which i think is the best place to attack. Edo is not close to the capital and not far from our own continent(thus better supply of troops).
So my vote would be to attack japanese in a concentrated force towards edo and hold it. Then as soon as possible, make peace(with some goodies).
Of course, i'm all for some harder choices - but with more gains. And about war weariness - we are gaining more luxes AND we make the war as short as possible.
About those jungle tiles in the west - better to throw settlers onto them and that's it. 1 pop science towns.
I guess we are going republic throughout the whole game? The anarchy hit is too big i suppose.
..... I just looked at the last save and noticed some... stuff on the eastern side of our continent. I see that you just took the workers, left everything to hell and went to the core(like those were not the cores?). I mean... Bonn has 43% corruption, hannover 55%, bremen 58% and cologne 29%(!), without courthouses(!). (Edit: Okay, cologne has courthouse and that's why it has so low corruption) Plus three of them are coastal towns - bigger commerce production cities(same as with rivers). AND they are all producing just wealth. AND you are talking that science and wealth are the biggest stuff we need
P.S. the %-s were gotten from civassist.
serttech2003
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2003
- Messages
- 143
Again...sometimes I talk like I know what I'm talking about but I really don't. Most of what I wrote is wrong. Enjoy at your own risk.
Spoiler :
serttech2003
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2003
- Messages
- 143
Edited for my stupidity...original post is below if you want to enjoy someone talking like a sausage (to quote my grandma)
Spoiler :
albatros13
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2015
- Messages
- 37
Hmm, i'm not talking about productivity in shields. I'm talking about productivity in commerce. Yes, the core can handle the productivity in shields(and the commerce, if it fancies that), but the semi-core areas are those what can handle some of the commerce production(and thus science), especially those at the coastal region, cause every coast gives 3 commerce. Those cities i listed have about 50% corruption, but with courthouses it would be less. Imagine we have 7 citizens working on coast, that's about 7*2(cause one goes to corruption) - 14 commerce. Now, we would have marketplace, bank, library and university. Just double it - 28 commerce. The upkeep is 3gpt(cause marketplace and bank are free of gpt cause of smith). Okay, let's add courthouse an aqueduct too - total 5gpt upkeep. So in total in a 50%/50%, we have 9 wealth and 14 science profit from coast. Those tiles which in science farm manner can't be used. I didn't even count the land tiles and the city can handle 4 citizens more. Okay, maybe everything is not coast, maybe we lose 2-3 commerce. Still, we are losing a lot of commerce because we are not utilizing tiles in semi core areas - especially coasts.
You seem to specialize on shields(railroading the mined tiles), but do those shields produce something now? Only cities i see worth upgrading their shields asap are those cities what produce wonders and stuff like that. Even then, i saw you railroading mountains before base tiles(like grassland).
You seem to specialize on shields(railroading the mined tiles), but do those shields produce something now? Only cities i see worth upgrading their shields asap are those cities what produce wonders and stuff like that. Even then, i saw you railroading mountains before base tiles(like grassland).
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
Albatross is absolutely right about Courthouses. If you have a city at only ~50% corruption/waste before building a CH, then you should build one immediately (and in your next game, build them earlier)! A CH should almost always be the first or (at the latest) second project in a semi-core city (say, 2nd- to 3rd-ring, assuming that you're building at CxxC to CxxxC), because by decorrupting base commerce/ shields, it will improve outputs for everything you build/do in that city afterwards. The cumulative value of early-built CHs, especially over a long science-game, can be immense -- like building Temples+Libs ASAP for Culture games.
I also agree that Markets should be built in any Pop7-12 cities where most/all of the cititzens are working tiles, but for the Lux-happiness multiplier effect, rather than the TAX%-multiplier effect. Banks though -- not so much. Remember, TAX%CPT = 100%baseCPT – SCI%CPT – LUX%CPT, and the multiplier-effects of Markets and Banks apply only to TAX%CPT. Even though Smiths means you won't pay maintenance for them, if SCI%+LUX% together total 100% of your national spending, then your TAX%CPT will be zero, and (Markets+)Banks therefore won't improve your GPT-income in any cities. Ideally you want the other civs to pay for your building (and excess unit) maintenance, so that you don't need to produce TAX-income; and have access to enough Luxes (4 or 5 might be enough, with Markets -- but 6 would be better) that you can zero LUX%-spending.
For a research-focused game, to take advantage of Coastal commerce, and especially as the Scientific Germans, then just the half-price Lib+Uni are (much) better projects for a (semi-)core city. Only if you can achieve 4T research at lower SCI%+LUX%, do Banks become even worth considering as builds for a science-game, and then generally only in your highest-commerce core-cities, if anywhere -- but you'd probably need to be collecting at least 20-30% TAX% to see any significant jump in total income from your more marginal cities -- which in turn means that SCI%+LUX% couldn't exceed 70-80%, i.e. you make less BPT than you might do, across the board.
Worked example:
A Pop12 city (with Uni+Lib, Market but no Bank) working 4 coast tiles, 8 railed land tiles (without River, Resource or Wonder commerce-bonuses) will be making 3CPT per tile, plus 3(?)CPT for the city itself = 39 CPT. If it's a 1st-ring city, with a CH it will probably have 0-10% corruption/waste. So let's be conservative and say 10%, so we're going to lose 3.9 CPT -- which I think the game would round down to 3, giving 36 CPT uncorrupted
at 0.100.0 TAX.SCI.LUX => 0.36.0 CPT => 0 GPT, 72 BPT, 0 Happies, i.e. total output = 72 (before deductions for maintenance)
at 0.80.20 TAX.SCI.LUX => 0.29.7 CPT => 0 GPT, 58 BPT, 7 Happies, i.e. total output = 65
(with 4-5 Luxes and a Market, 7 Happies at Monarch is probably excessive, so let's drop LUX% to 10%)
at 0.90.10 TAX.SCI.LUX => 0.32.4 CPT => 0 GPT, 64 BPT, 4 Happies, i.e. total output = 68
at 40.50.10 TAX.SCI.LUX => 14.18.4 CPT => 21 GPT (28 GPT with a Bank), 36 BPT, 4 Happies, i.e. total output = 61 (68 with Bank)
And the further out the city is from your Palace, the further those numbers are going to drop. You'll probably have around 6-8 1st-ring towns, but your 10-12 2nd-ring towns are likely to have ~20-30% corruption of their base-CPT, and 3rd-ringers may be 50-60% corrupt, even with CHs (Police Stations will reduce this further, sure, but you have to pay 2GPT maintenance for them as well). So sure, you could get some benefit out of Banks, but you get the most benefit from your improvements by directing your economy as single-mindedly as possible towards research.
Also, once you hit the Modern Age, tech-costs are around double (8000-9000 beakers) compared to the Industrial (4000-5000 beakers). So even if setting SCI%CPT at 50% is enough get you 4T-techs right now, it will only be good for 7-8T-techs in the Modern (maybe 6T with all your science-farms up and running), so you'll either need to ramp SCI%CPT up to 90% or 100% to get back down to 4T-techs, nullifying your Market+Banks' effect on GPT-income, or you'll have to accept a slower tech-pace. Admittedly, that slower pace may not be a problem at Monarch, if you're already well in the lead, and can keep the other continents' civs poor by selling them your outdated tech for all their gold+GPT (and preventing any one of them from genociding the others, e.g. by making MPPs with the weaklings).
I also agree that Markets should be built in any Pop7-12 cities where most/all of the cititzens are working tiles, but for the Lux-happiness multiplier effect, rather than the TAX%-multiplier effect. Banks though -- not so much. Remember, TAX%CPT = 100%baseCPT – SCI%CPT – LUX%CPT, and the multiplier-effects of Markets and Banks apply only to TAX%CPT. Even though Smiths means you won't pay maintenance for them, if SCI%+LUX% together total 100% of your national spending, then your TAX%CPT will be zero, and (Markets+)Banks therefore won't improve your GPT-income in any cities. Ideally you want the other civs to pay for your building (and excess unit) maintenance, so that you don't need to produce TAX-income; and have access to enough Luxes (4 or 5 might be enough, with Markets -- but 6 would be better) that you can zero LUX%-spending.
For a research-focused game, to take advantage of Coastal commerce, and especially as the Scientific Germans, then just the half-price Lib+Uni are (much) better projects for a (semi-)core city. Only if you can achieve 4T research at lower SCI%+LUX%, do Banks become even worth considering as builds for a science-game, and then generally only in your highest-commerce core-cities, if anywhere -- but you'd probably need to be collecting at least 20-30% TAX% to see any significant jump in total income from your more marginal cities -- which in turn means that SCI%+LUX% couldn't exceed 70-80%, i.e. you make less BPT than you might do, across the board.
Worked example:
A Pop12 city (with Uni+Lib, Market but no Bank) working 4 coast tiles, 8 railed land tiles (without River, Resource or Wonder commerce-bonuses) will be making 3CPT per tile, plus 3(?)CPT for the city itself = 39 CPT. If it's a 1st-ring city, with a CH it will probably have 0-10% corruption/waste. So let's be conservative and say 10%, so we're going to lose 3.9 CPT -- which I think the game would round down to 3, giving 36 CPT uncorrupted
at 0.100.0 TAX.SCI.LUX => 0.36.0 CPT => 0 GPT, 72 BPT, 0 Happies, i.e. total output = 72 (before deductions for maintenance)
at 0.80.20 TAX.SCI.LUX => 0.29.7 CPT => 0 GPT, 58 BPT, 7 Happies, i.e. total output = 65
(with 4-5 Luxes and a Market, 7 Happies at Monarch is probably excessive, so let's drop LUX% to 10%)
at 0.90.10 TAX.SCI.LUX => 0.32.4 CPT => 0 GPT, 64 BPT, 4 Happies, i.e. total output = 68
at 40.50.10 TAX.SCI.LUX => 14.18.4 CPT => 21 GPT (28 GPT with a Bank), 36 BPT, 4 Happies, i.e. total output = 61 (68 with Bank)
And the further out the city is from your Palace, the further those numbers are going to drop. You'll probably have around 6-8 1st-ring towns, but your 10-12 2nd-ring towns are likely to have ~20-30% corruption of their base-CPT, and 3rd-ringers may be 50-60% corrupt, even with CHs (Police Stations will reduce this further, sure, but you have to pay 2GPT maintenance for them as well). So sure, you could get some benefit out of Banks, but you get the most benefit from your improvements by directing your economy as single-mindedly as possible towards research.
Also, once you hit the Modern Age, tech-costs are around double (8000-9000 beakers) compared to the Industrial (4000-5000 beakers). So even if setting SCI%CPT at 50% is enough get you 4T-techs right now, it will only be good for 7-8T-techs in the Modern (maybe 6T with all your science-farms up and running), so you'll either need to ramp SCI%CPT up to 90% or 100% to get back down to 4T-techs, nullifying your Market+Banks' effect on GPT-income, or you'll have to accept a slower tech-pace. Admittedly, that slower pace may not be a problem at Monarch, if you're already well in the lead, and can keep the other continents' civs poor by selling them your outdated tech for all their gold+GPT (and preventing any one of them from genociding the others, e.g. by making MPPs with the weaklings).
serttech2003
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2003
- Messages
- 143
And after running the numbers last night, ....I see I was wrong. I apologize. Like i said earlier learn something new all the time. It will take awhile for this to trickle into my play so give me some grace and time.
I do tend to over focus on shields since i'm interested in raw production, guess I'll have other things to work out. I've always used shields as the measuring stick and a stand in for everything. Corruption never bothered me unless i could pull back shields from it. Gold was something I paid for building upkeep and wasn't as important as shields shieds SHIELDS!!!!!
OK, hopefully its not to late.
Has anyone gotten civassist to work under win10? I've haven't yet and am crp-suite (think thats the name) which i don't really like over civassist.
I do tend to over focus on shields since i'm interested in raw production, guess I'll have other things to work out. I've always used shields as the measuring stick and a stand in for everything. Corruption never bothered me unless i could pull back shields from it. Gold was something I paid for building upkeep and wasn't as important as shields shieds SHIELDS!!!!!
OK, hopefully its not to late.
Has anyone gotten civassist to work under win10? I've haven't yet and am crp-suite (think thats the name) which i don't really like over civassist.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
Have you tried installing/ running the CAII version that's tweaked to work on Win7+8? I have that one running just fine* under Win8.1, so I would expect it to work on Win10 as well, unless recent Win10 updates have screwed it up? Though if you haven't done so already, you might also need to re-install Civ3 outside the C:/ProgramFiles directory, to avoid VirtualStore issues and ensure that CAII can find the autosaves where it expects them to be, in .../Civilization3/Conquests/Saves/Auto/.
*Also possibly related: Are you running any patches?
I discovered recently that my Civ3 Vanilla1.29 .exe (from GamersGate, installed last March but not tried until after the SafeDisk cripplement last September) wouldn't run under under Win8.1 (although the same file runs just fine under WinXP) -- turned out it was actually still DRM'd using the secdrv.sys driver. However, when I installed the official PCGames magazine NoCD-patch for Vanilla 1.29 (which is a small .exe file that appears to tell the computer to bypass the DRM section of the main Civilization3.exe), CAII didn't recognise that Civ3 was running, and wouldn't auto-update itself. (It works just fine with Conquests though -- that .exe appears to be genuinely DRM-free).
Point is, if you're running e.g. a NoRaze version of the Conquests .exe, a similar problem might apply.
Lord Plebian
Chieftain
Got it! Looks like I have some reading to catch up on before I start. 
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