1.29 Editing and Scenario BIC files

[senecasax]

Given my previous experience with BIC files and being very optimistic, after my last finals tommorow I'm going to start looking to expand iEditCiv into a full-featured rules editor for version 1.29, with the possibility of map editing, since the 1.29 editor is in limbo (as Brad said, he's working on it in his "Free" time) and I don't expect MacSoft / Destineer / Westlake (whoever decides this stuff) to open source the editor. It'd be pretty cool though!

I'm going to be working full time during the day this summer, but may be able to find time somewhere.

The problem with map editing is that I don't have any of the routines which draw the map using the in-game graphics, and really don't know how the forest / mountains / jungle / rivers go together, and don't have time to learn the ins and outs of the pcx file format. I was thinking maybe an "Import Map" feature where you can import a 1.21 map from the old editor and add units, cities, etc with a simpler interface, for example just a color coded map or or something. These could then be saved and played in-game.

What I also was thinking about was adding savegame editing support (which of course would mark your file so you couldn't submit an edited GOTM). However, there seems to be no information on the File Format itself floating anywhere on the 'Net, and I don't know if Gramphos over at Apolyton (the maker of Civ3CopyTool) would be willing to share that information.

Any ideas, questions, flames, revelations that the 1.21/1.29 editor is going open source, would be welcomed.

 

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by senecasax

Any ideas, questions, flames, revelations that the 1.21/1.29 editor is going open source, would be welcomed.

I certainly don't want to discourage you, and I think that it would be a pretty good learning experience.

Having said that, if the goal is to release something that allows editing of the rules for 1.29, I do have the editor in good enough shape to allow that. There are other glaring holes at the moment (city and tile editing and placement is pretty busted).

I don't mean to talk you out of anything, but if the goal is more to produce a working product than to learn about the innards, I don't want you to waste your time unnecessarily.

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver

..... , if the goal is to release something that allows editing of the rules for 1.29, I do have the editor in good enough shape to allow that. There are other glaring holes at the moment (city and tile editing and placement is pretty busted).

Would a release of the 1.29 editor at this stage be wise? I mean, it would only increase the cries for a complete editor. But, you do seem to be fairly immune to such negative pressures.

 

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by dojoboy


Would a release of the 1.29 editor at this stage be wise? I mean, it would only increase the cries for a complete editor. But, you do seem to be fairly immune to such negative pressures.

I don't think it's particularly wise, no. And to be honest, I haven't read about whole lot of demand for a fixed Mac editor. That could be because you guys either are being nice to me (which I'd like to think is the reason ) or because there isn't that much demand.

If the demand is there for a stopgap editor release that doesn't offer much new functionality over 1.21's editor, I can try to clean it up and disable some of the new (and broken) features.

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver


I don't think it's particularly wise, no. And to be honest, I haven't read about whole lot of demand for a fixed Mac editor. That could be because you guys either are being nice to me (which I'd like to think is the reason ) or because there isn't that much demand.

If the demand is there for a stopgap editor release that doesn't offer much new functionality over 1.21's editor, I can try to clean it up and disable some of the new (and broken) features.

Our behavior towards you right now is akin to a grandson around his wealthy grandparents. The grandson knows his grandparents have been kind to him in the past, and if he keeps his mouth shut, such kindness is "likely" to continue.

Personally, I don't want to see a poll on what stopgap editor we want right now. If I'm gauging the community correctly, I believe the opportunity to use the PC 1.29 created mods, maps, etc. is providing a nice outlet for gameplay.

Now, if you want some public testing done on the editor ......

 

[senecasax]

I think the most interesting thing that'd i'd like to be able to do is savegame editing. This could possibly then allow for some very nice mods / scenarios (with war declared, trades in effect, reputation destroyed, etc) that aren't possible with even the PC Editor.

The idea, I think, is to
1 - help me learn more about Cocoa & NeXT APIs and Objective-C
2 - maybe possibly provide a neat little tool to the Civ3 Macintosh community (even if only 10 of you use it) .

Given that i've had only some basic 100 & 200 level programming classes, I think it would be valuable experience overall.

The actual BIC file format is well documented, and the editing of cities and units can be done without a graphical interface, but the placement on a map may be tough. The basic goal, however, is to possibly work with savegame editing (a goal above the design specs of the 1.29 editor).

Ok I think that's about long winded enough. Thanks for the input Brad, it's always appreciated!

 

[cracker]

Originally posted by senecasax
I think the most interesting thing that'd i'd like to be able to do is savegame editing.

I would just add a little perspective that this concept is the virtual pandora's box of gaming software. A powerful tool to perform this task that left no signature would be one of those considerations that would lead to tough decisions when one evaluates the option of playing games that would involve more than one person.

Many would argue that no one is harmed if people use these tools for their own use, but the statistics do not bear this out. Just like free access to cocaine or alchohol with no immediate negative physical side effects, the ability to atrificially alter the in game status of events is just too much of a temptation and a drug for many game participants.

Knowledge is power, and all of the effects that you could want to implement within the limits of the current software can easily be done without introducing the negative social side effects of a save game editor. Advocating, promoting, and otherwise facilitating the availability of these tools can produce great harm that far outweighs any short term perceived benefits.

A key element of understanding the power or lack of power in the editor tools is to play the game well enough to understand what limits have been built into the software engine. There are somethings that would sound really cool but that just work like crap because of the critical parts of the software. How the machine looks at it self and reacts is the number one isse that should drive your decisions of what you choose to add into or alter in the game. We can show you som solid examples of these issues in existing mods that are already available.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver


I don't think it's particularly wise, no. And to be honest, I haven't read about whole lot of demand for a fixed Mac editor. That could be because you guys either are being nice to me (which I'd like to think is the reason ) or because there isn't that much demand.

If the demand is there for a stopgap editor release that doesn't offer much new functionality over 1.21's editor, I can try to clean it up and disable some of the new (and broken) features.

Brad. I haven't used an editor at all really, because no sooner was your beta editor available than it was overtaken by your 1.29 beta. However, I would very much like to be able to create a practice game pre-GOTM 20 with some simulated Conquest-mode additions, and if I understand it correctly I could probably make a stab at this using an editor.

So. If you want someone to check out a pre-release or alpha 1.29 editor in this way, I'd be more than happy to do so. For this purpose, it would at least need to be able to add and edit a couple of units and modify the player's starting units.

 

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by AlanH
For this purpose, it would at least need to be able to add and edit a couple of units and modify the player's starting units.

Unfortunately, that's all new functionality for the 1.29 editor and I haven't implemented it yet.

 

[n8mac]

I would be interested in a 1.29 editor, haven't used the current one yet because according to these posts it didn't seem complete, and I don't want to start a project (senario) that I can't finish due to some key points that I can't control.

1.29 editor mini map?

n8mac

 

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by n8mac
I would be interested in a 1.29 editor, haven't used the current one yet because according to these posts it didn't seem complete, and I don't want to start a project (senario) that I can't finish due to some key points that I can't control.

It was as complete as the PC version of the editor. I'm not aware of any missing features.

Of course, the 1.29 version of the editor introduced the mini-map, among other things. If you're waiting for that functionality, you could be waiting a long time.