Just curious as to what the consensus is here, just got rolled by a massive ogre army due to double production, despite being 20 (yes, 20) techs ahead and much better fortified. I didn't really get outplayed, I got out produced and zerged to death.
-10% beakers enough penelty for orcs?
- Thread starter Tamed
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Right now the Barbarian trait is very powerful, because barbarians are much better at disrupting early civ development. Not having to pump out a bunch of Warriors protect your developed tiles means those 
can go to building settlers - and then those settlers need smaller escorts and smaller garrisons to be safe. It's almost too easy, by comparison.
I'm not sure raising the research penalty is warranted, however. The current AI is great at producing units, but is vulnerable to AoE damage tactics. Maelstrom requires 5 techs, Ring of Fire requires 7 techs - and each of those paths requires fewer total
than getting to Iron Working. If you're 20 techs ahead of the Clan by the time they show up with an army of Ogres then you should be prepared to severely damage their stack before combat even takes place.
can go to building settlers - and then those settlers need smaller escorts and smaller garrisons to be safe. It's almost too easy, by comparison.I'm not sure raising the research penalty is warranted, however. The current AI is great at producing units, but is vulnerable to AoE damage tactics. Maelstrom requires 5 techs, Ring of Fire requires 7 techs - and each of those paths requires fewer total
than getting to Iron Working. If you're 20 techs ahead of the Clan by the time they show up with an army of Ogres then you should be prepared to severely damage their stack before combat even takes place.
Deon
Lt. of Mordor
20 tech ahead? Man, you could protect with immortal and archmages then 
.
20 tech ahead means that 10% is enough. The production bonus may be compensated by other powerhouse civs like Khazad or by other means which are a lot in FFH.
.20 tech ahead means that 10% is enough. The production bonus may be compensated by other powerhouse civs like Khazad or by other means which are a lot in FFH.
Personally, I find the Clan the strongest Civ as the human player. I can't give a real reason besides the obvious ones, I just have the best record with them; indeed I always win easily with them. And yes, they are even stronger with the new improved barbarian AI.
I play on shuffle 75% and fool around 25%, standard map size 80% of the time (large about 20%), emperor.
So I don't know how to adjust (or if these results are simply an artifact of my playing style). I do find the clan is a powerful AI opponent but not necessarily overwhelming. Stong early, strong late once the ogres and warrens are up, a little weaker inthe 'middle' period.
Best wishes,
Breunor
I play on shuffle 75% and fool around 25%, standard map size 80% of the time (large about 20%), emperor.
So I don't know how to adjust (or if these results are simply an artifact of my playing style). I do find the clan is a powerful AI opponent but not necessarily overwhelming. Stong early, strong late once the ogres and warrens are up, a little weaker inthe 'middle' period.
Best wishes,
Breunor
Senethro
Overlord
Charadon is already dead quite honestly.
I dunno, the person playing was a human. I had many, many units in my cities, 10 or so in each. But I got hit by stacks of literally hundreds of ogres. I am not exagerating, it was hundreds. He didn't even bother sieging me, just right click attack over-ran me, even with collateral damage from Dwarven Siege, etc. It was pretty much insane.
He hit me on 7 fronts at once. It just seems ridiculous to be able to do this without a completely murdered economy, it was impossible to defend because of the dwarf gold happiness penelty and the amount of units I could have, even with properly chosen civics.
He hit me on 7 fronts at once. It just seems ridiculous to be able to do this without a completely murdered economy, it was impossible to defend because of the dwarf gold happiness penelty and the amount of units I could have, even with properly chosen civics.
Senethro
Overlord
Do you have a save file from the game you can load up and investigate? I'd be willing to be that he did indeed have a completely murdered economy. Its quite worth it if you can crush your opponent.
About what turn was this? It sounds a bit like an extreme late game scenario if there were literally hundreds of units in play. I'm guessing you got complacent and forgot this wasn't an AI you were playing against and that even 10 units per city will not be enough if your opponent has 20.
The bottom line: You got out produced by someone with a raging hammer economy and a civilization specialization in mass numbers. Normally I would have suggested Maelstrom or Ring of Flames as a counter to huge stacks but Khazad are a bit short on magic. Cannons? Dwarvern Druids with Crush? Dwarvern Shadows with Collateral Damage?
About what turn was this? It sounds a bit like an extreme late game scenario if there were literally hundreds of units in play. I'm guessing you got complacent and forgot this wasn't an AI you were playing against and that even 10 units per city will not be enough if your opponent has 20.
The bottom line: You got out produced by someone with a raging hammer economy and a civilization specialization in mass numbers. Normally I would have suggested Maelstrom or Ring of Flames as a counter to huge stacks but Khazad are a bit short on magic. Cannons? Dwarvern Druids with Crush? Dwarvern Shadows with Collateral Damage?
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Uh, yeah you did. Next time attack him before he can build up an army of hundreds of anything.
(Ring of Flames is divine magic, which dwarves can use just fine.)
Ummm, yah....if he had you outnumbered 10-1 or better, you got outplayed, no two ways about it.
I assure you he probably did have a wrecked economy, but once he had his massive ogre army ready, what does he need an economy for? He's not going to research anything else if he has that kind of army, and he only needs to hold out long enough to take you over...which isn't that long if you got attacked on seven fronts.
You should have wrecked your economy in turn, and met his hundreds of ogres with hundreds of champions of your own.
Especially if you were 20 techs ahead....what were you waiting for exactly?
Multiplayer is a horse of a different color guy. Throw everything you learned beyond basic strategies right out the window....next time, wreck your economy and invade him first with hundreds of units, or it WILL happen again. Don't worry about dwarven vault bonuses if you've managed to assemble the techs and army needed to wreck him....it's not like life continues in the game after you've won, so who cares about a wrecked economy?
I assure you he probably did have a wrecked economy, but once he had his massive ogre army ready, what does he need an economy for? He's not going to research anything else if he has that kind of army, and he only needs to hold out long enough to take you over...which isn't that long if you got attacked on seven fronts.
You should have wrecked your economy in turn, and met his hundreds of ogres with hundreds of champions of your own.
Especially if you were 20 techs ahead....what were you waiting for exactly?
Multiplayer is a horse of a different color guy. Throw everything you learned beyond basic strategies right out the window....next time, wreck your economy and invade him first with hundreds of units, or it WILL happen again. Don't worry about dwarven vault bonuses if you've managed to assemble the techs and army needed to wreck him....it's not like life continues in the game after you've won, so who cares about a wrecked economy?
If only cartain world leaders would NOT rule as if they were being successful FfH2 players...
Dwarven Druids, pump Earth Mana=Win!What the hell do they care? The bill will fall on the next two generations....spend, spend, spend. Who the hell cares, right?
nevermind....no need to create drama.
Fair enough is all I'll say to that.
Although, last time I checked, there is quite a bit of spam in this joint, and it IS NOT called Ekolites' Civilization Fanatics Center.
If you don't like what I write, don't read it thanks.
Fair enough is all I'll say to that.
Although, last time I checked, there is quite a bit of spam in this joint, and it IS NOT called Ekolites' Civilization Fanatics Center.
If you don't like what I write, don't read it thanks.
I can't say anything about multiplayer, and I haven't played FFH2 much, but from what I have seen, the orcs are weak.
In my first game, we hated each other. Religion and Alignment difficulties, I wouldn't give into their threats, etc. So of course they begged to become my vassal.
Wait what?
In my second, they had the lowest the score in the game, and I, the king of "One unit per city" wiped them out.
And when I'm looting your fields, you seriously aren't strong enough.
Of course this would have probably gone differently if they had a decent human player behind them, but if that was ever the case I would have lost every single game I've ever played.
In my first game, we hated each other. Religion and Alignment difficulties, I wouldn't give into their threats, etc. So of course they begged to become my vassal.
Wait what?
In my second, they had the lowest the score in the game, and I, the king of "One unit per city" wiped them out.
And when I'm looting your fields, you seriously aren't strong enough.
Of course this would have probably gone differently if they had a decent human player behind them, but if that was ever the case I would have lost every single game I've ever played.
Moon Pine
Nuke Attack!!!
For me, the only thing may be not good is......the Clan can duplicate Settler and Worker - 10%
is obvious not a problem for me - I can easily place 6 - 7 cities with cottages in early time. And then flow my .
Ekolite
Deity
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Does anyone else think that a better approach to giving barbarian civs a tech penalty could be to use a fixed penalty as opposed to a percentile one? Something along the lines of 4 or 5 commerce.
This would get them off to a slow start, and they would have difficulty teching things like agriculture and crafting. However, as soon as education, or in some cases calendar or mining arrive, the penalty becomes mostly irrelevent. By the late game 4 commerce is nothing.
I think this would better represent the barbarianism of early clan and dovilello society, but also the gradual move towards civilisation which clearly occurs anyway in the game, but is hindered thematically by the 10% commerce cut.
The Doviello would possibly need some kind of boost, which can be done by giving Charadon the charismatic trait he desperately needs and deserves. Mahalla doesn't have the barb trait so wouldn't be affected.
This would give civs with the barbarian trait perhaps a 40% penalty pre-commerce techs, at which point the penalty will mostly disapear.
This would get them off to a slow start, and they would have difficulty teching things like agriculture and crafting. However, as soon as education, or in some cases calendar or mining arrive, the penalty becomes mostly irrelevent. By the late game 4 commerce is nothing.
I think this would better represent the barbarianism of early clan and dovilello society, but also the gradual move towards civilisation which clearly occurs anyway in the game, but is hindered thematically by the 10% commerce cut.
The Doviello would possibly need some kind of boost, which can be done by giving Charadon the charismatic trait he desperately needs and deserves. Mahalla doesn't have the barb trait so wouldn't be affected.
This would give civs with the barbarian trait perhaps a 40% penalty pre-commerce techs, at which point the penalty will mostly disapear.
