1upt is why horse units are so overpowering in this game
- Thread starter KopOut
- Start date
I don't see how the 4 speed has anything to do with 1upt.
Horsemen are overpowered because of their speed, strength, cheapness, how quickly you can get them and the fact that the AI is incapable of doing anything to counter them. None of which has anything to do with 1upt.
Horsemen are overpowered because of their speed, strength, cheapness, how quickly you can get them and the fact that the AI is incapable of doing anything to counter them. None of which has anything to do with 1upt.
?
having more upt would not make the AI magically able to produce more units that are magiclaly stronger against your horsemen.
protocol7
Chieftain
With four movement they can hop over units and get in and out of the battlefield much easier than units with less movement.
Peng Qi
Emperor
Man, people are really reaching to hate 1UPT. What makes them broken is moving after attacking and the AI not knowing how to deal with that.
J-man
Deity
Especially those companions. Extra movement, stronger. If you do it right, spearman won't even bother you.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
ZoC and proper unit placement should balance this out. The biggest problem with horses isn't the fact that units can't be stacked, it is their four moves. If a Civ4 horse had four moves, it could still be devastating. Hell, you could bypass unwanted stacks of doom and attack another city instead.
But I feel four moves can be balanced out with some stat changes (or penalties against cities).
But I feel four moves can be balanced out with some stat changes (or penalties against cities).
ZoC yes -- I would also add opportunity fire.
I'm truly puzzled by why they dropped the ball so badly on ZoC -- I mean, they certainly implemented it with barbarians -- a scout loses a movement point when cornered by a barb... having a tough time seeing how they could overlook in general military strategy.
Frosty_AUT
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2010
- Messages
- 85
I think that mounted units just need more weaknesses. They should get major penalties when attacking rough terrain (hills, woods, jungle) and cities.
They got owned 80-20% in a poll here on this forum, even with many of us disappointed in the overall Civ 5 package so they're just completely reaching for anything.
"horsemen" units are overpowered for a host of reasons far more complicated than simply 1upt. But you are right that horsemen are more benfited by the system than other units, largely because of that ability to move after the attack. then they can relocate and allow even another orseman unit to come in and attack from the same tile they left.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
ZoC is there. My point was, with proper unit placement, horsemen wouldn't be as effective. Are they effective in MP? I realize it's hard to tell with lag and people not be sequential during war, but I feel they're easier to counter in that situation. Don't forget the cheap, spammable unit directly counters them.
The current state of the game can be summarized by the following: the lead designer had an in itself interesting idea (make Civ5 1 upt, because Panzer General is cool) and at all costs that idea was implemented. Maybe he thought that changing core mechanics would be easy to balance. Well, it's not. Stacking non-combat units (a very sensible approach and for sure suggested by the beta team) apparently wasn't even an option; at all costs the holy 1 upt had to be implemented! So that lead to the boring, broken game now. I haven't found yet any experienced good Civilization player who states this is even remotely a good (or even fun!) game.
If you want to make 1 upt balanced and challenging you really need to totally rewrite the combat mechanics in Civ; all units need reworking (attack, defense, movement, bombardment, ZoC etc.), probably number of tiles in a map needs reworking and most of all, the AI needs a TON of work! Without all that you get, well, Civ5. Horsemen are now overpowered, but it's just the tip of the iceberg.
If you want to make 1 upt balanced and challenging you really need to totally rewrite the combat mechanics in Civ; all units need reworking (attack, defense, movement, bombardment, ZoC etc.), probably number of tiles in a map needs reworking and most of all, the AI needs a TON of work! Without all that you get, well, Civ5. Horsemen are now overpowered, but it's just the tip of the iceberg.
You should try the FFH2 mod for CIV4. You frequently saw mounted units with 6 move and commando on enemy roads and an extra flanking bonus. It was even balanced, sort of.
Pikemen and spearmen have the right combat bonuses to deal with horsemen. The problem is that the AI can't marshal forces well enough to use that bonus. They can't use catapults either but the AI sometimes gets lucky and has a catapult in the right place to shoot. Because it doesn't move to attack it's then lucky enough to be in the right place again next turn
.If you have good roads in your territory (not just a single line) and wide cultural borders then the horsemen don't escape by just moving back one hex.
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2008
- Messages
- 14,926
Horsemen are overpowered because they're pretty much like sharks. With promos, they can dominate rough terrain and already dominate open terrain because some one had the bright idea for the -33% modifier for open terrain.
Hey, has anyone seen the AI build actual horse units? I mean other than a Civs UU?
I can't say that I remember seeing this in any of my games. Even where I had 8 million horse resources and was routinely selling batches of 5 of them to other Civs for the money.
I can't say that I remember seeing this in any of my games. Even where I had 8 million horse resources and was routinely selling batches of 5 of them to other Civs for the money.
Superluminal
Warlord
No! You amateurs do not understand the mechanics of the game. I'M ON A HORSE FFS. I SHOULD ATTACK AND RETREAT. I GOT FOUR LEGS! I'M ON A HORSE!
