[Vote] (5-83) Re-Proposal: Addition of Galley Unit, Adjustment to Naval Ships

[Stalker0]

SPECIAL: This proposal was passed in Session 2 but failed to meet the timeline for implementation. The sponsor has committed to bandwidth for this proposal, and so we are doing a simple Yes/No confirmation that the proposal is still desired by the community due to the time that has passed.


VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 13a
Discussion Thread: (2-13a) Counterproposal: Early Naval Unit rework
Proposer: @pineappledan
Sponsor: @pineappledan

Proposal Details
A Response and re-submission of this proposal

Proposed Change:
Add a Galley melee boat at Fishing, move the trireme back to Philosophy, and cosmetic changes to the Dromon.

Spoiler details :

Galley
Available at Fishing
70
3
12

Trireme
Available at Philosophy
120
4
18

Quinquereme (Carthage Trireme replacement)
Available at Philosophy
120
4
20
Heavy Assault
Pincer

Dromon Changes:
rename to "Liburna"
Change attack animation to arrows instead of shooting greek fire
shrink unit model slightly
No balance changes

Reasoning:

• Galley/Trireme split:
  • The trireme currently comes just slightly too late, and it's a bit strange that units can embark before there is a proper boat to defend them.
  • Closes the gap between trireme and Caravel, in which time triremes become desperately obsolete vs ranged attacks and city defenses.
  • Regularizes the naval melee line, giving a 2 tech gap so the naval game can "keep up" relative to land combat, without awkward lags and spikes. This spacing also doubles the number of units that unlock in late classical(!), which I find can get pretty stale without any new toys.
• Quinquereme
  • This resolves some strangeness with some civs with their interactions with the melee unit line:
    • Polynesia has an ability that lets them build fishing boats with melee ships, but melee ships currently unlock 1 tech after fishing. In fact, there is another proposal to address this specific issue right now.
    • Carthage has an early trireme UU, which makes it anachronistic in ancient era, and it unlocks an entire unit domain before any other civ even can field units that can occupy the same tile type. The UU is doubling as a naval conquest unit and early scout, conflating Hanno's voyage 100 years before the invention of the Quinquereme, with it's use in the Punic wars.
    • This also restores Carthage's incentive to go for the Sailing tech. Their UA currently takes the lighthouse off this tech, and the UU moves the unit unlock off this tech, leaving the tech barren, with only a wonder and a trade slot
• Dromon/Liburna
  • The liburna is an antecedent ship design to the later Dromon first employed by Dalmation pirates in the early classical era. The design de-emphasized ramming, with a greater emphasis on speed. The Dromon's creation was iterative on the Liburna, so the existing unit model is a passable representation of both.
  • Dromon's have a strong association with Rome and Byzantium, and with the deployment of Greek Fire. This is hyper-specific to a Mediterranean context. While a Liburna is still a mediterranean ship, it's more general in design and usage than napalm-spitting Byzantine dromons.

- Barbarians cannot spawn Galleys until 80% of civs have researched Fishing
- Barbarian Galleys have same stats as player Galleys

 

[rkkn]

What does the Pincer promotion do?

 

[pineappledan]

Pincer gives a bonus for flanking and ZOC. It’s a T4 promo on the boarding party line.

Also not listed here is that Dromon becomes available as a minor civ gift. Not a huge deal, since you will almost never see it, but I’m thinking of making it a unique galleass with targeting I and splash II

 

[Rekk]

Also not listed here is that Dromon becomes available as a minor civ gift. Not a huge deal, since you will almost never see it, but I’m thinking of making it a unique galleass with targeting I and splash II

I don't think it's necessary to do this if you're using the Dromon model for the Liburna.

Especially since we already have the Great Galleass as a Galleass Minor Civ Gift.

On the other hand, every reference I can find to the Liburna references square sails, and that the Dromon was notably an upgrade from the Liburna partially due to the adoption of its signature lateen rigging.

For example:

The word dromon itself probably derives from dromos "race" and the verb dromao "to run," emphasizing the speed of the ships (125) which surpassed that of the standard late Roman liburnae war galleys. The earliest securely-dated references to the word dromon appear in the sixth century, at the same time references to liburnae wane. Pryor suggests that there were three areas which distinguished the dromon from the liburna: the dromon was originally a smaller, fully- decked galley of fifty oarsmen (vs. the half-decked bireme and trireme liburnae); square sails were replaced by triangular lateen sails; and the classical waterline ram was replaced with an above water wooden spur (127).

 

[pineappledan]

BTW here are the new icons for the early galley and the new liburna units

The player galley is just a re-textured barbarian galley with a white flag instead of the black flag.

Since I proposed this the last time, I found a new unit model for the Classical ranged ship. One of the things that has held this proposal back from implementation is that It took me a while to get permissions from the original modders to add it to VP (credit to Sukritact and Leugi). This means the Liburna can have its own model, separate from the Byzantine Dromon, and the Dromon can be truly unique.

The Liburna looks like this. Square sails :

On the other hand, every reference I can find to the Liburna references square sails, and that the Dromon was notably an upgrade from the Liburna partially due to the adoption of its signature lateen rigging.

Not only that, the Dromons are the earliest example of Carvel-built hulls in the world. A major leap forward for ship construction that allowed boats to become larger and more seaworthy. The Dromon really was a technological marvel in so many ways, and the fact it has been relegated to a base classical unit doesn't do justice to the Byzantine's and their ingenuity.

 

[Tekamthi]

this community could really use a few more wooden ship art models... anyway nice find

 

[tsmith7163]

I like this change but no greek fire- that is one of the best/coolest animations in the game........ there is tons of arrows only one fire ship...

 

[Tekamthi]

I like this change but no greek fire- that is one of the best/coolest animations in the game........ there is tons of arrows only one fire ship...

agreed -- i'd like to see the greek fire boat tied to some kind of resource the way the elephant unit ties to ivory: provides a quasi-UU, and animation gives it this 'special' quality.

sadly I don't think we have a corresponding resource -- modern consensus on greek fire seems to be that it involved some kind of naphtha, or surface-appearing petroleum derivative

 

[pineappledan]

The dromon in all its fiery glory will be present as a minor CS gift and is available as a Byzantine UU in my 4UC mod.

If people want to swap Dromon for the Cataphract as Byzantium’s UU, I would be in support of that, and was thinking about proposing such a change next session. We don’t have any pre-renaissance ranged naval UUs and we have 3 different knight UUs, after all.

 

[Stalker0]

The dromon in all its fiery glory will be present as a minor CS gift and is available as a Byzantine UU in my 4UC mod.

If people want to swap Dromon for the Cataphract as Byzantium’s UU, I would be in support of that, and was thinking about proposing such a change next session. We don’t have any pre-renaissance ranged naval UUs and we have 3 different knight UUs, after all.

I really do enjoy the cataphract, but the galleasses is a lot cooler of a unit now than it used to be, so I could maybe see it.

 

[tsmith7163]

Phew--- that is good news..... thanks for the response- I love your 4UC mod.

Your 2nd point might be a bit be tough as I think the Cataphract is pretty awesomely loved-

 

[pineappledan]

What I was thinking of proposing was this:

Move Dromon to Byzantium as a unique Galleass
Give it splash and a unique Greek Fire ability that disables enemy units from healing for 1 turn (plague placer)

Move Cataphract to Persia as a unique Horseman
Keeps 3 moves, high base CS.
remove the ability to fortify, add Armor Plating.

Immortal moves to CS gift pool

That gives us 1 Galleass, 1 Horseman, 2 knights and 2 spears, from 3 knights and 3 spears before.
The 3 move Cataphract makes terrific historic and gameplay sense for Persia, since Iran basically invented heavy cavalry and the unit can go back up to 4 move during a GA. It also helps avoid a direct comparison with Greece and their UU. It gives Byzantium a UU that they actually invented and was unique to them, rather than something they ripped off of Persia. It gives us a unique boat, and those are in very short supply. It moves the semi-historical, poorly attested Greek fanfic unit into the CS minor gift obscurity bin where it belongs.

 

[tsmith7163]

What I was thinking of proposing was this:

Move Dromon to Byzantium as a unique Galleass
Give it splash and a unique Greek Fire ability that disables enemy units from healing for 1 turn (plague placer)

Move Cataphract to Persia as a unique Horseman
Keeps 3 moves, high base CS.
remove the ability to fortify, add Armor Plating.

Immortal moves to CS gift pool

That gives us 1 Galleass, 1 Horseman, 2 knights and 2 spears, from 3 knights and 3 spears before.
The 3 move Cataphract makes terrific historic and gameplay sense for Persia, since Iran basically invented heavy cavalry and the unit can go back up to 4 move during a GA. It also helps avoid a direct comparison with Greece and their UU. It gives Byzantium a UU that they actually invented and was unique to them, rather than something they ripped off of Persia. It gives us a unique boat, and those are in very short supply. It moves the semi-historical, poorly attested Greek fanfic unit into the CS minor gift obscurity bin where it belongs.
View attachment 668125

Wow-- and I thought changing the cataphract would be tough- now changing the immortal as well ..... I do like the logic of spreading out UU ( as this adds flavor and variety) as well as I learned something new

--- on the origination of the Cataphract (thank you) -- but both of those civs are fan favorites and very fun to play - and I personally like both. (It would interesting to know your 4UC stuff as well).

I think historical accuracy and variety would trump so I think I could get behind it but I think the headwinds would be tough as isn't the "immortal" akin to "persia" because of the 300 movie...

Plus wouldn't this make Byzantine weaker -- I means knights are one of the best units in that era so to having a UU knight is fairly strong-- and range boats don't seem to be well liked ( although I am playing Norway now and am loving the ghost ship) -- but I just added a azum4roll mod to increase ranged boats CS because I thought battleships were a joke -- I mean they are good on offensive but one heavily promoted blitz (zulu) ironclad was one/two shoting them- which just did not seem realistic ( for a computer game-lol)

 

[azum4roll]

What I was thinking of proposing was this:

Move Dromon to Byzantium as a unique Galleass
Give it splash and a unique Greek Fire ability that disables enemy units from healing for 1 turn (plague placer)

Move Cataphract to Persia as a unique Horseman
Keeps 3 moves, high base CS.
remove the ability to fortify, add Armor Plating.

Immortal moves to CS gift pool

That gives us 1 Galleass, 1 Horseman, 2 knights and 2 spears, from 3 knights and 3 spears before.
The 3 move Cataphract makes terrific historic and gameplay sense for Persia, since Iran basically invented heavy cavalry and the unit can go back up to 4 move during a GA. It also helps avoid a direct comparison with Greece and their UU. It gives Byzantium a UU that they actually invented and was unique to them, rather than something they ripped off of Persia. It gives us a unique boat, and those are in very short supply. It moves the semi-historical, poorly attested Greek fanfic unit into the CS minor gift obscurity bin where it belongs.
View attachment 668125

The downsides:

• Possibly another coastal bias needed, while Byzantium's kit is more fun without biases
• Loss of a lost-on-upgrade ability for another kept-on-upgrade promotion that still obsoletes in Modern Era
• No way to spread plague with splash? That would be fun

 

[pineappledan]

Loss of a lost-on-upgrade ability for another kept-on-upgrade promotion that still obsoletes in Modern Era

Current cataphract carries forward cover. Probably more accurate to compare those 2. Cover is much more common.

Possibly another coastal bias needed, while Byzantium's kit is more fun without biases

Probably not if unit is medieval. I'd say it's unnecessary.

 

[azum4roll]

Current cataphract carries forward cover. Probably more accurate to compare those 2. Cover is much more common.

Probably not if unit is medieval. I'd say it's unnecessary.

Well you didn't say remove Cover. Why should it lose the "benefit from defensive terrain" for a generic "Armor Plating"?

Netherlands has coastal bias with Medieval UI and Renaissance UU.

 

[pineappledan]

Well you didn't say remove Cover. Why should it lose the "benefit from defensive terrain" for a generic "Armor Plating"?

Because if it kept both cover and fortify it would be too strong? It’s moving earlier to horseman and onto a civ with combat bonuses on the UA.

Netherlands has coastal bias with Medieval UI and Renaissance UU.

Yes, that’s two components that require water compared to 1. A UU just requires you to have at least 1 city with coast, while a UI wants as much coastal exposure as possible in as many cities as possible.

 

[Stalker0]

Current cataphract carries forward cover. Probably more accurate to compare those 2. Cover is much more common.

They also keep their open terrain (+30%) bonus

 

[azum4roll]

I'd like them to have Open Terrain Bonus (30), no "No Defensive Terrain Bonuses", and have the same or only +1 CS from Horseman.

 

[pineappledan]

alright, gonna write this out proper, since it seems to actually be generating discussion:

Current Cataphract:

Byzantine unique knight​

unlocked at Chivalry​

200 , requires horses​

28CS (+4 from Knight)​

3moves​

can move after attack​

-25% reduced city penalty (down from 33%)​

Open Terrain bonus (+30% CS in open terrain)​

does NOT have ignore terrain bonus (ie. benefits from hills, forests, etc.)​

New Cataphract:

renamed to Aswar​

Persian unique Horseman​

unlocked at Military Theory​

100 , requires horses (+10 from horseman, but still -25 below war elephant)​

15CS (+2 from Horseman and -1 from Elephant)​

3moves (same as Elephant)​

can move after attack​

does not benefit from terrain defense​

-25% reduced city penalty (down from 33%)​

Armor Plating II (+25% defense, the not-obsoleting one)​

​

With both the terrain bonus and the bonus in open terrain, that approximates a single bonus that gave 25% or 30% defense in any terrain and +30% on attack in open. It's a weird collection of interlocking terrain bonuses that provide complete coverage, and the Immortal's existing 25% on defense approximates the same effect without all that complexity.

​