(3-VT) Barracks and Terracotta Army move

[Legen]

Spoiler Barracks details :

Cost: 110
Base yield: 1
Maintenance: -1
Supply cap local: +1
+15 xp for all units
-1 unhappiness from / distress

Spoiler Terracotta Army details :

Cost: 200
1
Supply cap local: +5
Policy requirement: 4
Tile improvement construction speed increased by 25%
+10 culture when you destroy an enemy Unit in battle, scaling with Era.

Proposal:

• Move Barracks from Military Strategy to Bronze Working.
• Move Terracotta Army from Masonry to Military Strategy.
  • Cost adjusted to 185 , to remain consistent with other T2 Ancient era wonders.
  • Policy requirement adjusted to 2, to remain consistent with other T2 Ancient era wonders.

Rationale:

A proposal to improve the bottom line techs, the Barracks is moved back to its original BNW tech, restoring a good part of Bronze Working's original power and usefulness. For those that forgot, Bronze Working in BNW looks very similar to the current one in VP, just differing about the Barracks:

This move should be enough to make Bronze Working a respectable tech, and one that even those focusing on the top techs would want eventually, if just for their military specialized city or a threatening neighbor. This is also an indirect buff to the spearman, as the tech that unlocks them would also provide the +15xp building for any newly trained spearman; those delaying Bronze Working for the archer or horseman would have them start at 0xp. The spearman would make up for its tactical inflexibility with superior quality in the opening turns of Ancient Era.

The Terracotta Army move is meant to keep Military Strategy's power as a tech about the same as it is now, compensating for the loss of the Barracks. Its choice comes from Masonry being an overall stacked tech that can afford to cede one of its elements to another tech, with this wonder being less likely to disrupt Ancient Era's unit and yield balance than any other of Masonry's elements. Moreover, Terracotta Army has a fair share of references to Military Strategy's themes, from citing Sun Tzu to being, for modern scholars, a model of the military organization that led to the success of the Qin dynasty.

Moderator Action: The other proposals were vetoed, making this a proposal. - Recursive

 

[Legen]

As of note, I haven't decided if the Terracotta Army should have a nerf somewhere to fit with the power expected of a T2 Ancient era wonder. I'd like some opinions on that.

 

[DeAnno]

I like this proposal a lot and feel it's closest to the mark but I do feel TCA has been deserving of a nerf for a bit and probably moreso at tier 2.

As of now it's a very overfilled wonder with three different elements, and I think the improvement speed could probably just go away entirely, it's the least on-theme and moreso with its new location on the tech tree. +5 Supply Cap is extreme for the time, but I think it's extreme in a weird way which I like, you need to actually build all that military this early to use it.

The scaling culture is the tricky part, and that might deserve a nerf too, but I wouldn't make it a big one. I think my shake at it would be:

Cost: 185
1
Supply cap local: +5
Policy requirement: 2
+8 culture when you destroy an enemy Unit in battle, scaling with Era.

 

[filipop]

Thank you for giving details on the impacted buildings, really helps when browsing these proposals. As a side note I wish there was an easy way to see why stuff changed as if did - this looks like a fine adjustment but it feels a disservice to this mod's forefathers to move barracks backs to its original tech without knowing why it shifted in the first place :'(

 

[Legen]

feels a disservice to this mod's forefathers to move barracks backs to its original tech without knowing why it shifted in the first place :'(

I'm curious why it got moved as well. I think it was due to the creation of the Military Strategy tech as part of adding more Ancient Era techs and more dependencies between them, but I'm not sure.

 

[Legen]

Rationale edited on the part that referred to the vetoed proposals, to not confuse people during the voting phase. The proposal and the idea of the rationale remain unchanged.

I still want more opinions on the Terracotta Army. Having tested multiple games with Authority for proposal (3-12) and getting not much of a cultural development relative to other trees, the amount of culture on kills on Terracotta Army doesn't seem enough to justify a nerf, even at Ancient Era. I'm also weary of just taking out the worker improvement speed without replacing it with something else, as the wonder looks barren with just 5 supply and culture on kill. Any thoughts?

 

[alchx]

Can be given +2 Great Engineer points. The wonder is in the lower military tech tree, in the same place as the Forges. This will allow you to create a Manufactory early, which will give a boost to the production of military units, and will become an analogue of the Engineer slot of the Tradition tree. Progress can just buy units by having free gold in cities..

 

[Legen]

As replacement for the worker boost or just add the engineer points? Just clarifying.

 

[alchx]

As replacement for the worker boost or just add the engineer points? Just clarifying.

I personally like the acceleration of workers. In the early game, this is not so noticeable, but in later times, with the growth of city borders and the increase in the number of cities, the difference turns out to be decent. In addition, with an active war, it is required to build many roads. Any captured territory also requires the repair of plundered improvements and the construction of new roads.

But, if you remove the worker speed bonus, then I would suggest speeding up the appearance of Great Engineers. Manufactory does not have to be placed near the capital. It can be a good source of hammers for the development of the port and the subsequent construction of the Colossus.

 

[DeAnno]

The TCA is already maybe the best wonder of its tier, if you're bringing it to the next tier down I really think you ought to nerf it somehow. The +5 Supply seems like a pretty big deal to me, and the culture really ramps up as the game goes on. Even killing 1 unit per turn in a Medieval war for 20 cpt is no joke at all.

 

[alchx]

The TCA is already maybe the best wonder of its tier, if you're bringing it to the next tier down I really think you ought to nerf it somehow. The +5 Supply seems like a pretty big deal to me, and the culture really ramps up as the game goes on. Even killing 1 unit per turn in a Medieval war for 20 cpt is no joke at all.

All Wonders must be very strong at the time of their appearance, otherwise there is no point in building them. This wonder weakens over time, like many others - the price of each subsequent policy increases and the bonus for killing a unit will be less in percentage, +5 unit supply is strong in the early game, but weakens at the moment when the population of cities can supply 50 units. Although the worker speed boost has a strong effect on all eras.

The wonder must either have strong bonuses, or provide an additional free building, or free units. Pyramids give a settler - not much, but at the same time the capital continues to grow and +1..+2 population for the early game is very strong. Either +60 faith from Stonehenge, guaranteed early pantheon and free Concil building.

Only Wonders that give +1 caravan slot don't weaken over time, as caravans get stronger through ages. You can still classify the Great Lighthouse as not weakening, as it gives +1 movement and +1 visibility, if I remember correctly.

 

[pineappledan]

@Recursive How is it that our proposals to move forge forward are vetoes and this counterproposal stays up? If this passes then we still can’t resubmit those next month because it would imply reverting this.

You’re allowing a community member to outflank other changes by abusing the cooldown period.

 

[Legen]

I can sponsor this.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal sponsored by Legen.

 

[Recursive]

@Recursive How is it that our proposals to move forge forward are vetoes and this counterproposal stays up? If this passes then we still can’t resubmit those next month because it would imply reverting this.

You’re allowing a community member to outflank other changes by abusing the cooldown period.

Proposals which partially revert other proposals which have been implemented are allowed. They are Ratification Options.

Proposals which partially revert other proposals which have not yet been implemented are not allowed, as the proposal is queued, and this leads to chains of proposals being dependent on each other, where if one proposal doesn't end up getting implemented, thus causing problems for every other proposal down the chain.

 

[pineappledan]

Proposals which partially revert other proposals which have been implemented are allowed. They are Ratification Options.

And yet you vetoed 2 of them and kept this up. You aren't applying this rule equally.

Proposals which partially revert other proposals which have not yet been implemented are not allowed

There was no reversion of any part of the changes to the forge in the proposals you vetoed. Look again. They changed different aspects of the same building, but they didn't revert the bonus to engineers.

You either make a rule that no one is allowed to touch a component that is up for ratification in any way, including counterproposals, or you decide that different aspects of the same building do not interfere with ratification of the other. This counterproposal staying up without the options of the base proposal it was meant to counter is a clear abuse.

 

[pineappledan]

OP needs to show what this proposal is going to do to Military theory. This proposal is hiding relevant information.

New Military theory:
- horseman
- war elephant
- terracotta army
- defense process

So two resource-locked units, a weak process, and a wonder. This leaves military theory in a worse state than bronze working ever was.

 

[Legen]

OP needs to show what this proposal is going to do to Military theory. This proposal is hiding relevant information.

It's mentioned clearly, it gets the Terracotta Army wonder in place of the Barracks, and the wonder gets its cost and policy requirement adjusted to fit for its new placement.

If you're referring to the Bronze Working image, it is from unmodded BNW, to show that the Barracks was originally from that tech. That's also why the chopping icon is white, instead of yellow. It is not meant to show how the tech will look like. Military Strategy doesn't exist in unmodded BNW, the closest you have there is the tech "Archery", from which Military Strategy's icon is from.

 

[DeAnno]

Even if you discount Elephants, Horsemen are great units and TCA would be the best wonder in the tier and maybe the game. The problem with BW right now is Spearmen are trash, and their role as a 2nd tier transition unit has been swallowed by Archers.

 

[pineappledan]

TCA would be the best wonder in the tier and maybe the game.

And it doesn't strike you as a problem that one of the strongest wonders in the game is so early in the game you can reroll for it? Seems lopsided.

I just can't believe this is headed towards voting phase with the other 2 proposals it was with vetoed. Its absurd; Borderline underhanded. We can’t have an actual poll on this until March or later now, because of something that was proposed last November.