[Vote] (4-17) Proposal: Barracks and Terracotta Army move (resubmission)

[Legen]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" if you'd be okay if this proposal was implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if this proposal wasn't implemented.

You can vote for both options, which is equivalent to saying "I'm fine either way", but adds to the required quorum of 10 votes in favor.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 17

Spoiler Barracks details :

Cost: 110
Base yield: 1
Maintenance: -1
Supply cap local: +1
+15 xp for all units
-1 unhappiness from / distress

Spoiler Terracotta Army details :

Cost: 200
1
Supply cap local: +5
Policy requirement: 4

Tile improvement construction speed increased by 25%
+10 culture when you destroy an enemy Unit in battle, scaling with Era.

Spoiler Pathfinder and Scout stats, with differences underlined :

Pathfinder
Cost: 40
CS: 6
Movement: 2
+2 base sight range
Ignores Terrain Cost
Reconnaissance (gains XP from revealing tiles)

Scout
Cost: 90
CS: 10
Movement: 2
+3 base sight range
Ignores Terrain Cost
Reconnaissance (gains XP from revealing tiles)
Treasure Hunter (+25% Yields from Ancient Ruins)

Proposal:

• Move Barracks from Military Strategy to Bronze Working.
• Move Terracotta Army from Masonry to Military Strategy.
  • Cost adjusted to 185 , to remain consistent with other T2 Ancient era wonders.
  • Policy requirement adjusted to 2, to remain consistent with other T2 Ancient era wonders.
  • Terracotta Army no longer has its "Tile improvement construction speed increased by 25%" effect.
• Scout moved to Military Strategy (from Sailing).

Rationale:

A proposal to improve the bottom line techs, the Barracks is moved back to its original BNW tech, restoring a good part of Bronze Working's original power and usefulness. For those that forgot, Bronze Working in BNW looks very similar to the current one in VP, just differing about the Barracks:

This move should be enough to make Bronze Working a respectable tech, and one that even those focusing on the top techs would want eventually, if just for their military specialized city or a threatening neighbor. This is also an indirect buff to the spearman, as the tech that unlocks them would also provide the +15xp building for any newly trained spearman; those delaying Bronze Working for the archer or horseman would have them start at 0xp. The spearman would make up for its tactical inflexibility with superior training in the opening turns of Ancient Era.

The Terracotta Army move is meant to keep Military Strategy's power as a tech about the same as it is now, compensating for the loss of the Barracks. Its choice comes from Masonry being an overall stacked tech that can afford to cede one of its elements to another tech, with this wonder being less likely to disrupt Ancient Era's unit and yield balance than any other of Masonry's elements. Moreover, Terracotta Army has a fair share of references to Military Strategy's themes, from citing Sun Tzu to being, for modern scholars, a model of the military organization that led to the success of the Qin dynasty.

To mitigate the possibility of getting nothing from Military Strategy in case of an unlucky horse placement, this proposal moves the Scout to Military Strategy. The Scout fits the tech's theme with its ability to provide better intel (extra sight range) and more comfortably harass the enemy's home (able to survive a few hits), diverting some of its forces away from the frontlines. Moreover, its ability to ignore terrain cost means this tech has good military uses in case the terrain is heavy on rivers and rough terrain, which normally inhibit heavy cavalry deployment and, consequently, the usefulness of this tech in its current form. Military Strategy ends with a solid and versatile mobility on the battlefield, and brings improved intel to support the tactics that come with it.

Amendment: removed worker improvement speed effect from Terracotta Army and added the Scout to Military Strategy. Rationale adjusted.

 

[pineappledan]

This is just borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. This doesn’t solve anything.

New Military theory would consist of:
- horseman
- war elephant
- terracotta army
- defense process

Masonry now consists of:
- water mill
- Arena
- Catapult
- faster road move.

So now military theory is 2 resource-locked units, a bad process, and a wonder only 1 player can build. This leaves military theory in a worse state than bronze working was, and your OP conveniently omits that. You propose to restore "Bronze Working's original power and usefulness" by moving the problem to another tech while making a couple new problems besides. What if it turns out you don't have horses near your start? You just make MT unpickable? You re-create the sword rush problem 3 times over by doing this; at least iron working has forge and a national wonder you can build. If you don't have what you need for MT's units it's worse than nothing.

Terracotta is one of the most powerful wonders in the game, It's now so early you can just reroll the game if you failed to snag it.
Also its sheer power just makes it a bad candidate to make cheaper and therefore slightly better.

This concentrates a lot of the ancient/classical science into a straight line. Bronze Working will now have 2 different sources of on it, with the iron reveal and barracks. And then acts as the immediate prereq for Forge, another building.

 

[Legen]

So now military theory is 2 resource-locked units, a bad process, and a wonder only 1 player can build. This leaves military theory in a worse state than bronze working was, and your OP conveniently omits that. You propose to restore "Bronze Working's original power and usefulness" by moving the problem to another tech while making a couple new problems besides. What if it turns out you don't have horses near your start? You just make MT unpickable? You re-create the sword rush problem 3 times over by doing this; at least iron working has forge and a national wonder you can build. If you don't have what you need for MT's units it's worse than nothing.

Terracotta is one of the most powerful wonders in the game, It's now so early you can just reroll the game if you failed to snag it.
Also its sheer power just makes it a bad candidate to make cheaper and therefore slightly better.

So, if you don't reveal horses on a t1 Ancient tech, you may want to skip on the tech with the strongest and most versatile Ancient base unit, but you don't want to skip it at the same time because it has a good wonder to aim for. Is your complaint that Military Strategy becomes underpowered or mandatory?

If it is about being underpowered, I think you missed the issue with Bronze Working. The main distinction between BW and MS is that the units they unlock aren't on an equal level; Spearmen are neither as strong nor as versatile as Horsemen. If we had two techs that have only one of these two unit each, and nothing else, most people would still rate the tech that only unlocks the Horsemen above the one that only unlocks the Spearmen, despite the strategic resource requirement. MS is not at the same risk of being underpowered as Bronze Working is.

If it's about it being mandatory, I'm not against toning down the wonder in order to fit better for an earlier tech, and I asked before for what the proper power level would be. If you have a suggestion on it, feel free to do so.

This concentrates a lot of the ancient/classical science into a straight line. Bronze Working will now have 2 different sources of on it, with the iron reveal and barracks. And then acts as the immediate prereq for Forge, another building.

In order to unlock the Forge, you need to research both Bronze Working and Military Strategy. Moving the Barracks from MS to BW doesn't change that.

Also, the 1 on the Barracks is a low priority on most builds, peaceful civs even tend to neglect it due to limited production to keep up with councils and libraries already, plus the cost inefficiency of the Barracks for economic purposes. Without boosts to the Barracks, you build it mainly for the military benefits, a.k.a. 15xp and +1 supply.

 

[pineappledan]

If it is about being underpowered, I think you missed the issue with Bronze Working.

It’s about how your proposal produces an all-or-nothing, lopsided tech. You either have horses or you don’t, you have elephants or you don’t, so horsemen and elephants are either good units for an ancient rush or impossible to build at all. You also put the strongest ancient wonder there, so you either rush it and it’s the best, or you didn’t and it’s worthless. There is nothing to buffer this with the barracks gone. There is no action or benefit that is secure.

In other words, if you don’t have horses or elephants, and you aren’t the 1 person who gets to build terracotta, Military theory is worthless. Compare to iron working; Even if you have no iron, Swordsmen also unlock with a new building and a national wonder.

Rag on spearmen all you want, at least you can build them consistently. Even if you don’t have iron revealed near you, the ability to see it is worth something. But your military theory doesn’t have anything of any value unless you’re lucky, except for the Defense process. That’s a worse situation than what you claim to be fixing.

 

[Legen]

so horsemen and elephants are either the best units for an ancient rush or impossible to build at all

That tends to be true for units that require a strategic resource.

The techs they appear in tend to be strong nonetheless simply because of that unit's sheer military value. For instance, nobody would seriously argue that Flight is a bad tech reasoning that, if you don't have oil, you can't build planes; if you're at war with someone that has planes and you don't, you're screwed.

In other words, if you don’t have horses or elephants, and you aren’t the 1 person who gets to build terracotta, Military theory is worthless.

This doesn't mean Military Strategy gets to be underpowered. Quite the contrary; in many games, you'd get really good use out of it, or at least highly desire it for a shot at its wonder. This is the opposite of your former complaints about Bronze Working, in which people would be unenthusiastic about researching this tech no matter what.

Rag on spearmen all you want, at least you can build them consistently.

People pointed that out when we discussed about moving iron to Mining, and you still ragged a lot on spearmen. And on Bronze Working as such. I really doubt that you think spearmen and horsemen give comparable value to their respective techs.

 

[pineappledan]

For the third time, it is the potential for a tech’s value to be absolutely zero.

“Tends to be” “many games”. And if it doesn’t it’s worthless, and you don’t want that for a 2nd tier ancient tech. We can do better. In fact, we can do better by doing nothing.

 

[Legen]

it is the potential for a tech’s value to be absolutely zero.

Worst potential, you trade some horses with someone you haven't antagonized; horses are revealed early due to Animal Husbandry being a T1 Ancient Era tech, so it is really hard for you to have zero access to it from trade. Even if you don't have horses immediately, you'll still want to trade some if a war is likely, imminent or desired, so the idea of absolute zero value is questionable.

 

[Stalker0]

I think its too early to buff BW again, the new forest change is pretty nice, you can do some neat chop accelerations you couldn't do before.

 

[Legen]

@pineappledan To address your concern, I'm considering moving the Archer from Calendar to Military Strategy, either in place of the Terracotta move or alongside it; this ensures MS is solid regardless of whether your starting position gives you horses. Military Strategy itself has references to archery in general, so the theme fits as well. Any opinions?

I think its too early to buff BW again, the new forest change is pretty nice, you can do some neat chop accelerations you couldn't do before.

I'm actually concerned that Bronze Working isn't being taken into consideration for actual military purposes. The Barracks there would address that, partially level the power between the Horseman and the Spearman, and open a clearer tactical possibility for the Spearman with both better training and the option for a Drill Spearman rush, which is the one of the few things the unit can offer that the Archer and the Horseman are ill-fitted for.

This sets a strong theme distinction between MS and BW as well. Military Strategy gets units and a wonder focused on eliminating enemy units, while Bronze Working gets a Wonder and the most fitted Ancient unit for city assault.

 

[alchx]

But the buildings included in the Wonder of the World complex should definitely be in the same technology as the Wonder itself.

If I follow the Statue of Zeus, then I follow the lower military branch. And I need science from this branch from the barracks, because I will start building Concils at best after turn 60 or even after 100. I want to increase my unit limit through the barracks bonus, because I need to leave someone to protect my territory, rather than sending all 8 units for 20 tiles. But I have to go to another technology.

 

[Legen]

Amendment: removed worker improvement speed effect from Terracotta Army and added the Scout to Military Strategy. Rationale adjusted.

 

[pineappledan]

Every component moved in from some other tech makes a hole somewhere else. Now we’re strip mining the top techs too.

I’m with @Stalker0 on this. The chop was already doubled on bronze last Congress, and the tech already has a decent resource reveal, a bread-and-butter unit, and a so-so wonder. It’s already in a fine position. Pulling all of this stuff into bottom tree is an over-correction; it does more to weaken other parts of the tree more than make BW stronger. Now you’ve got separate proposals to make both the spearman and the Statue of Zeus stronger too.

This is all complete overkill.

 

[Legen]

@pineappledan You were very vocal before about Bronze Working being a really weak tech, and there were others were in agreement with that; in fact, you demanded me to fix the tech. And It isn't reasonable for the tech's value to be based mainly on non-military benefits. BW's military aspects were trashed hard back then, they weren't treated as "bread-and-butter" or "so-so"; the spearman was called a "situational downgrade" and the Statue of Zeus was treated as if it didn't exist ("I'm not going for Bronze Working at the expense of building wonders"). Saying that the chopping bonus addresses it all by itself is not sensible.

Sorry, but it's not overkill. The feedback was very vocal on Bronze Working being really bad and chopping bonuses don't realistically address it.

Now we’re strip mining the top techs too.

Sailing has a lot going for it, both mechanically and thematically, with the Scout being the least relevant part in both aspects of that tech.

 

[pineappledan]

My reaction to bronze working being really bad was in the context of a proposal to move iron resource reveal off it with no compensation, and before the chop bonuses were doubled. Not only are you now proposing to keep iron there, one of its existing bomuses is already stronger, you are proposing to buff the other two components on the tech in separate proposals, move a building onto it, and then play jenga with the rest of the ancient and classical tech tree to try to fill the gaps you made.

 

[Legen]

in the context of you proposing to move iron working off it

Wrong, many arguments were that Bronze Working was already bad untouched. Not just from you, but from others that were arguing against that proposal.

And no, you were very clear when stating that BW was really bad:

"Mathematics >>> Bronze working"

"The ability to embark alone is worth everything else on BW"

Regardless of iron reveal context, statements like those show that BW's features were regarded very poorly. And you weren't the only one to express things like that, others said:

"I do occasionally actively avoid researching bronze working for a bit to keep the ability to build warriors"

"But all that aside, this is just a discussion about who's in last place."

"Currently in all of my games even as Authority, Bronze Working is an unfortunate yet necessary science and time sink on the tech path to swords. The upgrade of spearman from warrior is a next to meaningless gold sink unless horse units are coming in force or city defenses are proving to be withstanding, which by that time in most games swordsmen are close to being online."

I really doubt that the tech is now fine just because it got the improved chopping bonuses. BW's issues behind such statements haven't been touched at all.

 

[pineappledan]

You digging up months-old posts from different proposals doesn’t justify this present proposal. This is just bad faith quote mining.

You’ve failed to make any argument as to why those quotes hold true now that BW has already been changed, and in the face of 3 simultaneous proposals. Do better, man. I’m not even against some small buffs to spears or to the SoZeus, but I don’t support all 3 of these changes.

 

[Legen]

Those are from a single proposal, and the only change in the meanwhile was the improved chopping bonus. No other changes happened to Bronze Working and its elements. Same for Mathematics and Fishing, which were mentioned indirectly. It is reasonable that most issues on Bronze Working back then are still applicable.

 

[alchx]

Why not bring catapults into Military Theory instead of scouts?
Masonry technology is already good in itself with a water mill and an arena. Both buildings give hammers.

I like the fact that there is an attempt to take the Scouts to an earlier era. They deserve it. But this will completely deprive the top branch of ground units.

It seems to me that there would be more balance:
Fishing - Scouts
Calendar - Archers

Military Theory - Catapults
Brnoze Working - Spearmen

Scouts + Archers are roughly capable of countering Spearmen + Catapults. On rough terrain and in defense, they are definitely capable. The top units are slightly weaker than the bottom ones, but the top path opens the way to work boats, fleet and trade (2 caravans via tech) - gold, food, fast growing cities. Passive Science through Libraries.

The lower path gives more production capacity to cities.

This will make Fishing a more useful technology. If we do not have sea resources, then working boats are completely useless to us. Swimming with units is very situational due to their vulnerability in water.

All that remains is to add something to Matematics to balance the technology. There are two Wonders of the World here, but both may not be interesting to build or be built by someone. Skirmishers are also very situational units (also they need horses). They are very weak individually and require teamwork with someone. If we have a limit of 10 units, then 2 skirmishers are more likely to be training for us than help. In an army of 15 units, 1 skirmisher can already be useful.
Matematics might want to move Bridges from Engineering, as we are definitely interested in fast travel across rivers in our territory. Now I manage to open bridges at about turn 100. Not the fastest opening. Or move the Scriveneer's Office as a building closely related to the Roman forum, but not part of this Wonder of the World complex.

Spoiler :

 

[der_weihnachtsmann]

Great idea for a counterproposal!

 

[Legen]

Why not bring catapults into Military Theory instead of scouts?

I tried that before and there were complaints of it being ahistorical. Catapults coming way earlier than they did in history, and encroaching on Assyria's UU being a siege unit that comes earlier than usual.