[Vote] (5-73) France UA/UI Rework+Changes and Hunnic UA/UU/UI Rework+Changes

[Enginseer]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" if you'd be okay if this proposal was implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if this proposal wasn't implemented.

You can vote for both options, which is equivalent to saying "I'm fine either way", but adds to the required quorum of 25 votes in favor.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 5, Proposal 84

	Current	Proposed	Differences	Rationale	Implementation Note
French UA Title	Esprit De Corps	Levee En Masse	Title change.	Whole rework of UA.	I can sponsor this fully.
French UA Effect	+10% Combat Strength for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn. When you conquer a city, gain 50% progress toward Great Writer/Artist/Musicians in your Capital and a temporary +40% Culture and Production in all Cities scaling with the conquered City's Population.	Melee and Gunpowder Units can convert defeated units to your side (Par le Sang Versé Promotion). +1 Culture in all Cities for every 10 Military Units in Empire. +25% Unit Supply from Population.	Whole rework of UA.	One of the things I did not like about France's current UA was that it didn't emphasize Napoleonic genuity with logistics. Sure it helped a lot that he conquered cities and influenced his ways of the Napoleonic Code as such to give GWAM. However, this feels boring with his +40% Culture/Production on City Conquest since it became this mini-Golden Age in all Cities. Let's not talk about getting 50% GWAM being too easy/similar to Japan's UA 50% GWAM from a Great General/Admiral... Now use the abundant amount of Unit Supply to reign cultural supremacy and/or military might! You got good reasons to place them in Chateau and Forts now. It's very important to note that Air Units do not count toward Unit Supply but will count as a military unit giving you the maximum cultural benefit of his UA. And most importantly, this Culture is added directly to all of your city's tiles allowing hotels to instantly be valuable in all of your cities.	I would like a DLL Sponsor for the +1 Culture in all Cities for every 10 Military Units in Empire. The rest I can sponsor myself.
French UI (Chateau)	800 Build Time (Divided by 90 for an unmodified Worker, rounded up to 9 Turns) Must be built adjacent to a luxury resource. +50% Defense +3 Food +3 Gold +2 Culture +1 Culture at Printing Press. +2 Gold and Culture at Flight.	800 Build Time (Divided by 90 for an unmodified Worker, rounded up to 9 Turns) Must be built adjacent to a luxury resource. +50% Defense +3 Food +3 Gold +2 Culture +1 Culture at Printing Press. +2 Gold and Culture at Flight. Melee Units do not follow up when attacking from a Chateau (like a fort or a citadel).	Units do not follow up when attacking from a Chateau (like a fort or a citadel).	Easier to defend overall. You might have a line of fort+chateau but find it annoying that the fort doesn't allow follow-up but the chateau does...	I can sponsor this fully.

	Current	Proposed	Differences	Rationale	Implementation Note
Hunnic UA Title	Scourge of God	-	None.	-	-
Hunnic UA Effect	Friendly and Enemy War Weariness is modified by 50%. Mounted Melee and Armor Units may capture defeated units, which do not consume Unit Supply. Claim adjacent unowned land tiles when Cities claim a tile of the same type.	+10% Combat Strength for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn. Inflict +100% and receive -50% War Weariness. Claim adjacent unowned land tiles when Cities claim a tile of the same type.	Mounted Melee and Armor Units no longer capture defeated units.All units of the Hun gain subsequent attack bonuses. You inflict +100% War Weariness on your enemies instead of +50%.	It's weird to see how this works with the UA... and the UU not being a mounted melee unit at all. Instead, if we're going to have a skirmisher UU, let the UA be more skirmisher-based. Subsequent combat bonuses are way more in-tune for this type of playstyle. We're also gonna increase the amount of war weariness they inflict on their enemies so the enemy wants to peace out of war more often with them. Their old UA of letting units captured kind of contradicts its intention of inflicting war weariness if the enemy might kill your captured units!	I can sponsor this fully.
Hunnic UI (Eki)	800 Build Time (Divided by 90 for an unmodified Worker, rounded up to 9 Turns) Must be built on flat grassland/plains with no access to fresh water. May be built adjacent to Hunnic territory, encouraging cities to expand to that improvement. +1 Food +1 Production +1 Culture +1 Production if built next to 2 Ekis. +1 Food and Production at Chivalry. +1 Gold at Economics. +1 Food at Fertilizer. +3 Production at Robotics.	500 Build Time (Divided by 90 for an unmodified Worker, rounded up to 6 Turns) Must be built on flat grassland/plains with no access to fresh water. May be built adjacent to Hunnic territory, encouraging cities to expand to that improvement. +1 Food +1 Production +1 Culture +1 Production and +1 Gold if built next to 2 Ekis. +1 Food and Production and -100 Build Time at Chivalry. +1 Gold at Economics. +1 Food at Fertilizer. +3 Production at Robotics.	Ekis no longer gets buffed by +1 Gold at Economics.Ekis gain +1 Gold if built next to 2 Ekis. Build time reduced from 800 to 500. Chivalry also reduces this build time to 400.	This is the improvement that is meant to be spammed. So let's encourage its spammability for the Hunnic Court!	I can sponsor this fully.
Hunnic UU (Mounted Archer)	Requires no Horses. 5 Moves 9 Ranged Strength 13 Combat Strength Skirmisher Doctrine Can Move After Attacking, No Defensive Terrain Bonus, -33% Penalty Attacking Cities, Naval Targeting Penalty. Barrage I	Requires 1 Horse. 5 Moves 9 Ranged Strength 13 Combat Strength Skirmisher Doctrine Can Move After Attacking, No Defensive Terrain Bonus, -33% Penalty Attacking Cities, Naval Targeting Penalty. Barrage I Combined Attack (Name WIP TBD, +10% Combat Strength for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn, stacks with UA, not lost when upgraded)	Requires Horses to train now. Gains Combined Attack which stacks with their UA granting this unit, +20% Combat Strength for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn.	Right now there's this odd reason for you to not upgrade your mounted archers mainly because heavy skirmishers cost horses.. which conflicts with your old UA if you wanted to use the horses. So much horse consumption! Now that the UA doesn't require horses. This UU should now require horses, but in return, we want to reward you for training as many of these units as possible with their new Combined Attack promotion allowing Skirmishers to double down on their new subsequent attack bonuses and inflict massive early victories!	I might be able to sponsor this fully.

 

[azum4roll]

Units on the new Chateau will also be immune to any AOE damage effects (Overrun, Pilum, Citadel, Khan, Splash, etc.) due to gaining NoFollowUp.

 

[AndreyK]

10% or 20%?

 

[ilikepickles]

10% or 20%?

The UU gets an additional 10% bonus, which stacks with the 10% bonus from the UA for a total of 20% per attack.

 

[Hinin]

Combined Attack (Name WIP TBD

Something like "(Arrow) Storm" ? The idea is to show the power of concentrated attacks and stay within the theme of the Huns fearsome reputation. "Arrow" isn't necessary and make the promotion feel anachronistic starting the Renaissance era, but I propose it still has a base concept.

 

[Recursive]

Something like "(Arrow) Storm" ? The idea is to show the power of concentrated attacks and stay within the theme of the Huns fearsome reputation. "Arrow" isn't necessary and make the promotion feel anachronistic starting the Renaissance era, but I propose it still has a base concept.

I recommend "Rain of Arrows", "Rain of Chaos" or "Blacken the Skies", which are totally not references to anything (although on an unrelated note, Blacken the Skies would be funnier on Mongolia...). The latter two aren't anachronistic either.

 

[Agiwan]

Hi,
As a French speaker, "levee en masse" is weird without the "é" for "Levée". Maybe it's better to find another UA title for Napoleon if it's impossible to get an "é" in the game.

 

[pineappledan]

I recommend "Rain of Arrows", "Rain of Chaos" or "Blacken the Skies", which are totally not references to anything (although on an unrelated note, Blacken the Skies would be funnier on Mongolia...). The latter two aren't anachronistic either.

I was advocating for "Wombo Combo"

Hi,
As a French speaker, "levee en masse" is weird without the "é" for "Levée". Maybe it's better to find another UA title for Napoleon if it's impossible to get an "é" in the game.

It will be in game, civ 5 can handle a lot of the accents. it's just hard to type it on an American language keyboard

 

[Enginseer]

amended to make it Levée

 

[Recursive]

I was advocating for "Wombo Combo"

Hah!

 

[phantomaxl1207]

France won't need a reduction in Unit Maintenance costs?
So then, the capture mechanic rework will be an indirect buff to Sea Beggars.
I for one will miss the Hun UA, though this replacement kit looks fun as well.

 

[pineappledan]

France effectively won't be limited by unit supply. Unit maintenance becomes their main limiter. However, they do get on their Chateaux, so they have some help on that front.

 

[Agiwan]

I was advocating for "Wombo Combo"

It will be in game, civ 5 can handle a lot of the accents. it's just hard to type it on an American language keyboard

Hum, so maybe we can also take the opportunity to correct "Chateau" with "Château"

 

[Recursive]

France's balance here is affected by this proposal: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/5-53-unit-capture-consistency.684529/

 

[Stalker0]

I played both of this civs a few times as a part of our beta test, so a few notes:

France

• I really like the new France. The unit capture gets the party started early, and feels better in France's hand due to a greater focus on melee units over the huns and the culture reward you now get for units.
• The +1 culture per city gives France a solid goal to push their military high in the early game. It provides a nice engine so that France can keep making culture while building up an army for the next war, rather than feeling they have to war constantly like a more pure warmonger like the Zulus. I find the ability tapers off a bit in the later part of the game but it serves its purpose quite well.
• The Musketeer feels a lot better in this version for a couple of reasons:
  • Its high CS means it has a greater capture chance than normal, so it allows you to swell up your forces in that classic Napoleonic era.
  • One of the issues with the old capture on the huns was the lack of purpose for your captured units. However, the musketeer becomes a great form to upgrade those captured spears and pikes into. Even without promotions, the 30 CS unit can more than handle itself, and ignore ZOC allows you to put your swarm to work encircling your enemy.

Huns

• Ultimately as a skirmisher focused civ, the multi-attack bonus feels a lot more at home here. I really got the "Horde" feeling with this mechanic, as I would build up an army of skirmishers, and just rack up big attack bonuses to take down units and cities.
• The horse archer gets a meaty upgrade here. The multi-attack moves the unit from support to the front line, as now you can obtain an attack bonus high enough to make the unit a credible threat against both units AND cities. This lets the huns rely less on siege for city taking, and so reinforcements their swift mobile style. We literally adding horses back in as a requirement because the unit is now so good, that allowing it to spam out of control was too strong!
• The Eki econ bonus rounds out the civ a bit more, ensuring it can support its large horde of troops.

Ultimately I was quite pleased with the changes, and found both civs just felt "more fun" in this version, as well as stronger. Considering both are very low in our AI rankings I think they can use the buff, and these changes do it in a way that is both effective, thematic, and enjoyable to play.

 

[Stalker0]

MAGI: @Enginseer having thought about it, I would like to split out the capture mechanic as a separate proposal. Since that does affect other civs like the Dutch who use capturing, and that mechanic is not a requirement to make these two new civs work, it would be better to highlight that as its own thing (unless you do in fact believe it can be isolated to just the new France?)

@Hinin @axatin @Recursive

 

[azum4roll]

Hmm, what about the capture chance removal proposal? Any conflicts/complements/etc.?

 

[Enginseer]

I can sponsor this almost fully, but I still need someone to sponsor the Trait to add +1 Culture in every City's tile for 10 Military Units in the Empire.

 

[Stalker0]

I can sponsor this almost fully, but I still need someone to sponsor the Trait to add +1 Culture in every City's tile for 10 Military Units in the Empire.

How did you do it in the modmod I playtested?

 

[Enginseer]

How did you do it in the modmod I playtested?

By Lua via dummy policies, this is not DLL-appropriate for the VP mod unless this is the desired outcome.