[Vote] (5-80) Make "Enable Research Agreements" and "No Tech Trading" the Default Settings (Special Supermajority Vote)

[axatin]

@axatin's 5-80 proposal :
NOTE: As this proposal adjusts the default balance assumptions of the mod, this is considered a "MAJOR CHANGE" and as such a supermajority of votes is required for implementation.

Proposal: The advanced options "Enable Research Agreements" and "No Tech Trading" are turned on by default.

SPECIAL: This would also change the default balance assumptions we base the mod on to these new settings.

Rationale: Both research agreements and tech trading serve the purpose of rewarding friendly relations to AI players, but tech trading is quite exploitable. With this change, it will still be possible to play with tech trading on if a player wishes so, but it will be recognized that research agreements and no tech trading are the default options the game should be balanced around.

@Tekamthi's 5-80a counterproposal :
(see discussion before vote for this proposal there)
NOTE: This counterproposal does not require a supermajority as it does not change fundamental balance assumptions.


Background/Context:

The initial proposal seeks to disable tech trading and re-enable vanilla's research agreements; some feel tech trading is core VP feature and/or civ series staple, and must remain. However, even though past changes have limited its exploit potential, the initial proposal correctly identifies that tech trading can STILL be relatively easily exploited by unscrupulous human (its one of those cases where you could just not do it, but we are all likely more subject to temptation than we like to admit...). I would add that the mechanism of potential exploitation is also unrealistic in the ease with which human can instantly wheel and deal techs all over the globe. This counterproposal revisits a mechanism I proposed in an earlier round of congress, however there its target was deemed too crucial to core gameplay (and not actually in need of fix) to be adaptable for AI; here the tech trading isn't as crucial, the targeted mechanism IS exploitable and may benefit from some kind of fix.

Proposal:

• Keep tech trading default enabled option, research agreements disabled.
• Restrict tech-trading to civs that have active trade route between one another. ie if either civ A or civ B are currently sending a trade route to the other, both can trade techs back and forth, 2-ways.
  • If there is no trade route at all between civ A and B, tech trading is not available between these civs
• In the case of city state, if two civs are sending trade route to same city state, they can tech trade. ie civ A and civ B send trade route to CS C, but not to one another; Can still trade techs via CS trade connection
• trade route requirement for tech trades removed if either civ has tech with attribute "UnlimitedTechTrading". Add UnlimitedTechTrading attribute to telecommunications.

Rationale:
This won't eliminate all opportunities to exploit tech trading, but it will greatly limit the availability of those opportunities to human in particular (well, to everyone, but AI never attempts the human-style abuse, or not to the same depths anyway), while using an existing, thematically-related game function. If human seeks to exploit tech trades, we will have to be more methodical, patient and perhaps forego other trade route interests to accomplish our schemes AI is already considering beaker yields when deciding where to send its trade routes; its existing function should be well-suited to access tech-rich trading partners.

edit: per sponsor feedback & discussion

 

[Solic]

Shouldn't these be separate proposals?

I've always played the default settings for this and must begrudgingly admit that buying and selling technologies is fairly strong. I do get the sense that AI is also using it all right, but since the deal logic is so complex they can probably not use it to the fullest extent. Things like gifting your vassals a bunch of free techs, because they are hugely behind anyways is something I don't think they do for instance. Lastly, I do worry about whether this will nerf science victory once more whereas cultural is still dominant.

Research agreements are hard for me to assess, since I've never played with them. I do like that that one wonder now no longer has an ability then that is only optional.

 

[Tekamthi]

tech trading is quite exploitable

isn't this by design? arguably, its how it works irl too, and certainly in every civ franchise title prior to 5.

What you're proposing is reverting major feature of VP to vanilla state. That said I typically turn both on, agreements and trading. Where they're just options in menu, proposal doesn't really affect me beyond what i click before game start -- but to get my vote, I'd prefer to see these both fixed up to be default on. Or to be independently viable, but tech trading is core feature of VP imo, civ staple

edit: reviving an old idea from past congresses, maybe both agreements and tech trades can be gated to civs w/ which a trade route exists -- the exploitability will still be there but it won't be a free for all of tech brokering and agreements to all other players, just a select few

 

[Rekk]

The game isn't balanced around both Tech Trading and Research Agreements being turned on.

 

[Tekamthi]

The game isn't balanced around both Tech Trading and Research Agreements being turned on.

agreed; and whether it could be is properly another discussion. To refocus back on OP concern, my take would be to find a way to thematically restrict tech trading ie only can tech trade with trade route civs, rather than turn it off

 

[Zanteogo]

If you play with research agreements turned off your lucky to have nukes unlocked before 1980 by anyone. (since the tech costs where rebalanced several months ago) This is... ok, but leaves out late game tech for almost every game.

Tech trading is in a weird state now. You can't trade for GPT or resources, because it's possible to exploit, it however means it's near impossible for the player to ever trade tech because of the crazy amount of gold they need to stockpile to actually do it.

 

[Recursive]

Tech Trading's been enabled for years and I see no reason to turn it off by default. Much like with espionage, I'm reluctant to disable a mechanic entirely rather than finding a way to fix any flaws with it.

 

[pineappledan]

Is this a big enough change to require supermajority? Seems like a major reversal for the mod to go back to research agreements by default.

 

[azum4roll]

I always turn both off, and never looked back.

 

[axatin]

I sponsor this.

 

[tsmith7163]

Shouldn't these be separate proposals?

I've always played the default settings for this and must begrudgingly admit that buying and selling technologies is fairly strong. I do get the sense that AI is also using it all right, but since the deal logic is so complex they can probably not use it to the fullest extent. Things like gifting your vassals a bunch of free techs, because they are hugely behind anyways is something I don't think they do for instance. Lastly, I do worry about whether this will nerf science victory once more whereas cultural is still dominant.

Research agreements are hard for me to assess, since I've never played with them. I do like that that one wonder now no longer has an ability then that is only optional.

again noob perspective ( not really noob for playing but noob for balancing) -- I used to do the tech trading like mentioned in Solic's post or to help weaker civs but then I saw Milae, Martin and others turning tech trading off (and it did seem fairly overpowered)-- so I thought to make the game better/harder was too not play with tech trading or that tech trading was too exploitable- and I have not done research agreements since vanilla lol.... so it is interesting to know that one or the other (research agreements or tech trading) should be on.

 

[pineappledan]

If we are going to have either, I prefer to stay with tech trading.

Research agreements between any 2 peaceful civs benefit both, even if one of them is already a tech leader. Replacing tech trading with RAs gets rid of a rubber band mechanic.

 

[Rekk]

If we are going to have either, I prefer to stay with tech trading.

Research agreements between any 2 peaceful civs benefit both, even if one of them is already a tech leader. Replacing tech trading with RAs gets rid of a rubber band mechanic.

Although, the benefit is severely reduced for the Tech Leader.

For a Tech Leader, Tech Trading is a way to make extra gold and uplift a friend (maxing out a trade relationship modifier in the process). Research Agreements are something you do to dump your gold to eak out a little more science and further improve relations with another player, but the conversion rate is awful.

 

[Amask]

Tech Trading's been enabled for years and I see no reason to turn it off by default. Much like with espionage, I'm reluctant to disable a mechanic entirely rather than finding a way to fix any flaws with it.

I think tech trading is just too impactful no matter how you implement it.
It's not necessarily broken or in need of fixing, and not necessarily better or worse than no tech trading, it's just different.
For me personally, I don't think I'll ever turn it on no matter what changes you make to it.
I'm pretty sure I'm far from alone in this.
How long a feature has been on shouldn't be the metric.
It's been on by default for ages, and I have been turning it off for exactly as long, and will continue to do so.
If there are more people in my camp than the other camp, then, as axatin said, "it will be recognized that research agreements and no tech trading are the default options the game should be balanced around."
The point isn't just to save me a click, it's to finally figure out if this is what people want, and to inform balance decisions and developer focus accordingly.