A couple of unrelated points/questions.

[Somebody613]

If you'd like it changed, please try to find something flag-themed and then it can be easily changed! Seems like it's a topic that requires some research and is easy to get wrong, so honestly you're probably the best person to find something that works within the c2c criteria for cultural icons.

That's the problem - I highly doubt there's an actual CULTURE (size-wise) that could be awarded a FLAG.
Even a Google search brings up no such flag, lol.
But I did find simply a picture of the person behind Sabbateanism (aka Sabbatai Zevi), so it's the closest to being a flag dedicated to him.

As far as FLAGS go, this is probably the closest that CAN get there.
I'll look it up more, but so far that's the best result yet.

 

[Somebody613]

I wouldn't call it so much as taking orders, as there does exist a legitimate difference between https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbateans and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism - why wouldn't you want it to be more correct? Regardless of the motivation, it still is a legitimate contradiction or error in description. Mind you, it's also not something that's a huge priority - there's errors like this all over the place, because humans are messy and the real world is chaotic like that - but if somebody is up to finding a better flag, power to them.

Also, please try to be a little more careful with your words (though this applies to everyone, really). In this particular case, 'religious extremist' is unwarranted; strong belief in ones religion does not imply advocating extreme action.

Thanks.
And yes, I simply don't want to raise the "Messianism" topic on a forum that has too few *Jews* to create a reliable discussion group in the first place.

Also, he insulted me first, whereas I never said anything about his beliefs (which I don't even know yet).
Just to make my point clear:

Other religions do similar things to artificially maintain their importance in a post-religious world. Take no notice of them. But Judaism is unique with this racist aspect.

 

[Blazenclaw]

Also, he insulted me first, whereas I never said anything about his beliefs (which I don't even know yet).

It shouldn't matter who said what first, but I'll also say that *reasons* for what someone does is one of the most important things, in life and with respect to C2C. If someone wants something changed, especially something that nobody else knows why, there had better be good reasons. After doing my own research and comparing to what you've stated I do agree with you that there is an inaccuracy primarily related to timeline - honestly I didn't doubt you on that so much as wanted to see for myself - but that took a while to get out of you, and even then in an exaggerated fashion.

Though... this is starting to drift toward another certain thread, so I'll stop here ^.^;
(If you want to respond on this, bump the political philosophy... monstrosity)

Anyway, if you can't find a flag, what about this suggestion:

I don't really know anything about the Sabbateans so I can't suggest a more accurate symbol, but if no one else has any idea either then I think a good substitute would be to just have the word "Sabbatean" written in Hebrew. At the very least I think that'd be unlikely to offend anyone.

Do you think you could do that [not handwritten though, just to be clear], seeing as you're the one caring the most (and probably the most capable of doing it properly)?

 

[Somebody613]

It shouldn't matter who said what first, but I'll also say that *reasons* for what someone does is one of the most important things, in life and with respect to C2C. If someone wants something changed, especially something that nobody else knows why, there had better be good reasons. After doing my own research and comparing to what you've stated I do agree with you that there is an inaccuracy primarily related to timeline - honestly I didn't doubt you on that so much as wanted to see for myself - but that took a while to get out of you, and even then in an exaggerated fashion.

Though... this is starting to drift toward another certain thread, so I'll stop here ^.^;
(If you want to respond on this, bump the political philosophy... monstrosity)

Anyway, if you can't find a flag, what about this suggestion:

Do you think you could do that [not handwritten though, just to be clear], seeing as you're the one caring the most (and probably the most capable of doing it properly)?

Yeah, sorry for such "weird" behavior.
It's just that I wanted to avoid the topic of modern Messianism as much as possible, so I ended up looking like a jerk, lol.
Anyways, I'm gonna edit TWO versions of the flag now:
1. Something alongside the word Sabbateanism in Hebrew.
2. Something involving the above picture of the actual Sabbatai Zevi.
I honestly don't see why there can't be a flag based on the major person involved in that culture to begin with, especially with such a small culture all along.

 

[Yudishtira]

I wouldn't call it so much as taking orders, as there does exist a legitimate difference between https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbateans and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism - why wouldn't you want it to be more correct? Regardless of the motivation, it still is a legitimate contradiction or error in description. Mind you, it's also not something that's a huge priority - there's errors like this all over the place, because humans are messy and the real world is chaotic like that - but if somebody is up to finding a better flag, power to them.

Also, please try to be a little more careful with your words (though this applies to everyone, really). In this particular case, 'religious extremist' is unwarranted; strong belief in ones religion does not imply advocating extreme action.

This is the first time Chabad messianism has been mentioned. I am under no obligation to weigh the merits of arguments that have not been made. It's a very generic stock image of a crown, it's certainly not offensive. Why is this religious denomination (the only one) represented as a culture in the first place?

And don't preach to me based on semantics. His extreme views in the other thread are those of an extremist, no advocating extreme action required.

 

[Somebody613]

This is the first time Chabad messianism has been mentioned. I am under no obligation to weigh the merits of arguments that have not been made. It's a very generic stock image of a crown, it's certainly not offensive. Why is this religious denomination (the only one) represented as a culture in the first place?

And don't preach to me based on semantics. His extreme views in the other thread are those of an extremist, no advocating extreme action required.

That one is clearly the Chabad Messianism flag (unlike Sabbatenism NOT having one to begin with).
And YOU are exactly a category of people being the reason of me trying NOT to mention it in the first place.
Especially since it has zero relevance to the actual Sabbateanism (or as much as Christianity does, which also MEANS "Messianism" as a Greek WORD).

 

[MattCA]

Step one for this is to find the background layer used for flags. I don't see how anyone can make a new flag without it.

 

[Blazenclaw]

This is the first time Chabad messianism has been mentioned. I am under no obligation to weigh the merits of arguments that have not been made. It's a very generic stock image of a crown, it's certainly not offensive. Why is this religious denomination (the only one) represented as a culture in the first place?

You are correct here that you're not obligated to weigh the merits of an argument without hearing them. However, the inaccuracy here is that the current flag icon is not that of a stock image; this argument was not initially stated well by Somebody, but it is the case that the current flag is simply wrong. Offensive... to those who know the difference. Like Somebody, who is now being proactive about fixing it, seems like, so no skin off anyone's back.

Why is this religious denomination represented as a culture in the first place... honestly, I'm not rightly sure. Maybe it was included by someone who just wanted to add more middle east cultures? There might be a case for looking at all the cultures and removing ones that're overtly religious, but that's going to end up being subjective somewhere. Human history is messy.

And don't preach to me based on semantics. His extreme views in the other thread are those of an extremist, no advocating extreme action required.

Spoiler offtopic... :

I find it all too easy to dismiss those of ideas different to yours - especially if they're held strongly - as fanatics, extremists, people you don't have to waste time with, etc...
The problem is twofold, A) that they're people too. Not monsters. Dehumanifying others ('religious extremist' connotation) occurs in many small steps; it's one of the lessons humanity has learned historically, yet seems all too easy to forget by humans. It's very rarely a conscious choice on someone's part to do this, but I guess I just have hope that pointing it out where I see it can sometimes help others. Also B) if someone is dismissive without really trying to understand the reasoning of others, it's also very easy to end up in an echo chamber, or convinced of their own accuracy (and, humans are inherently poor at being impartial judges of accuracy!) Reddit is a great example of this, where popular subreddits often end up being completely blind to counter viewpoints.

I guess lastly C) just on this particular semantics, I hear 'religious extremist' in this harsh negative connotation all the time - "extremist : noun : a person who holds extreme or fanatical political or religious views, especially one who resorts to or advocates extreme action" . Maybe you don't hold this connotation, but I just ask that people be careful where possible; I know I'm not great at it myself, but all we can do is try.

Aaaaand way off topic again

 

[Somebody613]

I tried creating something palatable out of the pictures I've found as of yet, but it's honestly simply better to just use something like I've suggested before.
Here's a square picture of both Zevi and Frank - I think it can make for a "flag" in this particular case.

Or maybe just remove that "culture" to begin with, given how it's hardly a CULTURE in the first place, as opposed to an insignificant (both in size and effect) group within Judaism.
OR replace "Sabbateanism" with more generic "Messianism", though I'm quite against such a move.
Better just remove it, and that's it.
Note that Sabbateanism is clearly LESS of a "culture" than, say, dividing Jews into "Ashkenazic" and "Sephardic", an option that DOES reflect CULTURAL differences.
I vote for removal, though.
But in ANY case, please do not LEAVE it the way it is.
That's not a demand (lol), that's a request.

 

[Somebody613]

Reddit is a great example of this, where popular subreddits often end up being completely blind to counter viewpoints.

"Fun" fact:
I've being BANNED on r/Judaism for "disrespect to other denominations" or something - which meant that I started an argument with a less-than-Orthodox Jew on something related to Orthodox Judaism.
Yes, I've been banned on a Judaism subreddit for discussing Judaism with a Jew.
FACT.
***FACEPALM***

 

[Thunderbrd]

I vote for removal, though.

I'm cool with that. If there isn't a flag out there for it, perhaps it's not actually a culture but yes, as someone said, a denomination. The Ideas project could potentially manage to include denominations but there's a very key difference between that and a culture. If the Sabbateans wouldn't ever be something you could've seen rise to be called a nation, then it's probably not a culture.

 

[Somebody613]

I'm cool with that. If there isn't a flag out there for it, perhaps it's not actually a culture but yes, as someone said, a denomination. The Ideas project could potentially manage to include denominations but there's a very key difference between that and a culture. If the Sabbateans wouldn't ever be something you could've seen rise to be called a nation, then it's probably not a culture.

It's hardly even a denomination, more like a religious opinion or a small-scale view.
On the other hand, Karaites are both a religion (or a denomination in some context, but it's not exactly Judaism anymore) and a distinct culture, even though they don't have a separate country or nation in a geopolitical sense.
But since you also have Gypsies as a culture, who are exactly like that themselves, you COULD add Karaites as well - say, to replace Sabbateans with something equally pseudo-Jewish, yet actually valid as a culture entry.
Not that I'd care, lol.

 

[Flying Mathias]

Do you think you could do that [not handwritten though, just to be clear], seeing as you're the one caring the most (and probably the most capable of doing it properly)?

Well I'm certainly no graphic designer but I tried my hand at it. Unfortunately I wasn't able to find that "dirty" flag texture all the Civ 4 flags have so I wasn't able to apply it, nor do I know how to set up the image to be ready for use in game, but I did at least make a flag. Note that instead of simply translating "Sabbatean" with Google, I instead used the title for the Sabbatean page on the Hebrew version of Wikipedia, since I imagine that's probably a more accurate translation. So don't worry just because it's a different translation than Google's, I'm not trying to hide anything naughty.

 

[Somebody613]

Well I'm certainly no graphic designer but I tried my hand at it. Unfortunately I wasn't able to find that "dirty" flag texture all the Civ 4 flags have so I wasn't able to apply it, nor do I know how to set up the image to be ready for use in game, but I did at least make a flag. Note that instead of simply translating "Sabbatean" with Google, I instead used the title for the Sabbatean page on the Hebrew version of Wikipedia, since I imagine that's probably a more accurate translation. So don't worry just because it's a different translation than Google's, I'm not trying to hide anything naughty.

That is, if it even stays in-game to begin with. It's hardly a viable CULTURE, after all.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah alright I'm convinced. Can someone take care of just giving it the boot?

 

[raxo2222]

Yeah alright I'm convinced. Can someone take care of just giving it the boot?

Yeah, I can boot out one culture, that has no unit related to it too.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah, I can boot out one culture, that has no unit related to it too.

Oh all the more reason. If we cannot ever make a culture a full civ with the material it gives us historically, it has no place as a culture really.

 

[Somebody613]

Cool. And I mean it mostly game-wise, if you are going for "making real world sense", this move was quite predictable. I suggest you should look through the entire list of cultures, maybe there's more of such unfit "infidels" hiding in there, loool.

 

[raxo2222]

Oh all the more reason. If we cannot ever make a culture a full civ with the material it gives us historically, it has no place as a culture really.

There are some cultures, that are US states too.

 

[Thunderbrd]

There are some cultures, that are US states too.

States could rise to split and become their own countries. I'm totally for those being cultures, at least with the few that had that potential. California, Texas, for example. Some here say that Texas let the US become part of them. It would not be surprising if they did succeed(sp?) some day - and the Russians have been social media botting efforts to get California to break off even recently - economically it could potentially play its own Brexit scenario at some point. But more importantly for these two, they are very culturally distinct and have a very unique cultural identity that if fostered could be a perfect example of how a culture can rise and grow and become a nation of its own.