ALC 27: Churchill of England

[DMOC]

5000 gold from trading maps? Do the AI really value the maps that much?

I can only get that amount on huge maps with lots of AI's.

 

[Silu]

Nice round Is this half-a-year hiatus stuff the new "thing" of the ALCs? Seems to be the trend lately

Something to note about Lib race and throwing the prereqs around: you shouldn't always rely on them completing their current research project. If a more lucrative option (like Lib) turns up and they haven't invested a lot in their current research yet, they can change. Here it wasn't an issue of course because you could see his research sucked so bad that 5 other Civs were probably closer than him to getting Lib even though he had more prereqs

 

[kossin]

Nice Liberalism payoff.

While you're in a Golden Age and Pacifism, why not revolt to Caste for a bit to farm a Great Merchant (or whatever).

Canons+Muskets/Maces(CR riflemen later on)/WEs or Pikes for horses looks good for war.

Going after Zara will be hard unless you defy the war vote every time (don't think you have a blocking majority being outside Islam).

Instead, going after AC and the Americans would help make your captured American cities more productive. Zara is also further away.

Since Islam is well spread to your empire, get those temples/monasteries up for the added hammers. Organized Religion would be good once the Golden Age ends.

I'd consider converting to Islam if you go after AC: it'll please Peter and Zara(+8 for religion he might get to Pleased even if you run Theocracy).
Relations will drop with Tokugawa (a vassal), AC (your target) and his vassal Washington, Hannibal and Shaka.

While it possibly won't make friends, you'll be safer from Peter while you pick on the buddhists (presumably, you could go after Hannibal next and then Joao).

Might be a crazy idea but it could just work. Peter is a better trader than AC and with fair trade and some negatives wearing off, he should be Friendly in a while for unlimited tech trades as well as war immunity.

 

[DMOC]

Nice round Is this half-a-year hiatus stuff the new "thing" of the ALCs? Seems to be the trend lately

Something to note about Lib race and throwing the prereqs around: you shouldn't always rely on them completing their current research project. If a more lucrative option (like Lib) turns up and they haven't invested a lot in their current research yet, they can change. Here it wasn't an issue of course because you could see his research sucked so bad that 5 other Civs were probably closer than him to getting Lib even though he had more prereqs

Interesting, I thought AI's never switched techs. I assumed they were too stupid to do so. But you're right, Washington did need about 32 turns for Chemistry.

Technically, it wasn't even half a year since the last update, more like a third of a year.

Nice Liberalism payoff.

While you're in a Golden Age and Pacifism, why not revolt to Caste for a bit to farm a Great Merchant (or whatever).

Canons+Muskets/Maces(CR riflemen later on)/WEs or Pikes for horses looks good for war.

Going after Zara will be hard unless you defy the war vote every time (don't think you have a blocking majority being outside Islam).

Instead, going after AC and the Americans would help make your captured American cities more productive. Zara is also further away.

Since Islam is well spread to your empire, get those temples/monasteries up for the added hammers. Organized Religion would be good once the Golden Age ends.

I'd consider converting to Islam if you go after AC: it'll please Peter and Zara(+8 for religion he might get to Pleased even if you run Theocracy).
Relations will drop with Tokugawa (a vassal), AC (your target) and his vassal Washington, Hannibal and Shaka.

While it possibly won't make friends, you'll be safer from Peter while you pick on the buddhists (presumably, you could go after Hannibal next and then Joao).

Might be a crazy idea but it could just work. Peter is a better trader than AC and with fair trade and some negatives wearing off, he should be Friendly in a while for unlimited tech trades as well as war immunity.

Yes, I was thinking about trying to get a merchant. Perhaps take the specialists off of cottages in London and hire maybe 8 merchants?

I was thinking along your lines originally. Cannons, pikemen, muskets, and maces (their big advantage here is getting a city raider promotion). Muskets, however, have the advantage of being drafted.

Good point about the AP. I think Peter won the seat, but could be friends with Zara (will have to check) so it probaby will be Augustus + Washington. Do grenadiers get a bonus vs. muskets? (The team has Chemistry now.)

Indeed, it might be time to buddy up with Peter. His favorite civic is Bureaucracy, and we're both sharing it. Peter's also willing to war vs. AC/Washington but for a steep price.

 

[huerfanista]

Do grenadiers get a bonus vs. muskets?

No, their 50% attack bonus is on rifles only and not on gunpowder units generally.

EDIT: You could try trading edu to Joao for astro, and astro to Zara for Nat, then researching MilTrad for cuirassiers - they make nice attack units. And they upgrade to cavalry quite cheaply. You'll need to get Nat for drafting anyway, if you want to go that route.

 

[Kev]

I'd be very wary about bringing in Peter/Toku vs. AC/Washington. If Washington splits from his master (he is a voluntary vassal if I recall) or dies completely, you'd have to worry about AC becoming a vassal to Peter and messing things up. You should have enough of an advantage to take them on by yourself - perhaps you might explore making AC YOUR vassal at the end of things.

Great that you are back and keeping this game alive!

 

[Silu]

Interesting, I thought AI's never switched techs. I assumed they were too stupid to do so. But you're right, Washington did need about 32 turns for Chemistry.

They consider it every turn actually. Of course they weigh already invested beakers high when choosing what to pick so changing techs isn't that common.

 

[DMOC]

No, their 50% attack bonus is on rifles only and not on gunpowder units generally.

EDIT: You could try trading edu to Joao for astro, and astro to Zara for Nat, then researching MilTrad for cuirassiers - they make nice attack units. And they upgrade to cavalry quite cheaply. You'll need to get Nat for drafting anyway, if you want to go that route.

That's good to know, because I fully expect to see grenadiers coming from the Augustus Caesar and Washington team after they research Military Science, which shouldn't take them too long.

It will be very hard for me to get Joao to agree to an Education - Astronomy trade since the AI does not do direct-even beaker trades. I'll try and see what I can come up with though.

Cuirassiers require horses, right? I don't have them, although I do have copper, iron, and ivory. Cannons are allowed.

I do plan on getting Nationalism someday. My plan is to draft all cities except London and Nottingham for muskets once I research Nationalism. Until then, the cities produce cannons. I prefer to make the heavy-duty stuff first, then draft the easy stuff later, then declare war.

I'd be very wary about bringing in Peter/Toku vs. AC/Washington. If Washington splits from his master (he is a voluntary vassal if I recall) or dies completely, you'd have to worry about AC becoming a vassal to Peter and messing things up. You should have enough of an advantage to take them on by yourself - perhaps you might explore making AC YOUR vassal at the end of things.

Great that you are back and keeping this game alive!

Good tip, I'll probably just war them by myself.

AC will probably end up a vassal of mine if I can execute this attack properly, because the time it would take for me to build a navy to capture his silly island cities just isn't appealing to me.

They consider it every turn actually. Of course they weigh already invested beakers high when choosing what to pick so changing techs isn't that common.

Interesting to know.

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I just wanted to point out - I have no horses, so I don't think I can build cuirassiers, right? And I doubt I can get it in a trade, and it's not safe to rely on an AI to provide me a strategic resource that they can break apart after 10 turns.

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Any considerations on the tech path? I was thinking Printing Press -> Nationalism -> Replaceable Parts -> Rifling. Perhaps I should pick up Banking and Economics via trade along the way. I think the Economics race is out since Tokugawa can research Economics.

 

[Darth Meanie]

Just read through this, good read.

Grabbing Nationalism and Rifling seems pretty obvious; you already have a significant edge with Steel, so I'd go ahead and forgo economic techs for now. This is the time to build up an army and take one of these power blocs down.

I'd get your Globe Theater city ready for draft/whipping and start building cannons. I'm not sure which country is the juiciest target right now though.

 

[DMOC]

Just read through this, good read.

Grabbing Nationalism and Rifling seems pretty obvious; you already have a significant edge with Steel, so I'd go ahead and forgo economic techs for now. This is the time to build up an army and take one of these power blocs down.

I'd get your Globe Theater city ready for draft/whipping and start building cannons. I'm not sure which country is the juiciest target right now though.

Oh yes! I forgot to mention that Canterbury is my planned Globe Theatre city. It's got plenty of food and no cottages yet unlike the southern cities. It has the production to make GT too. I have 4/6 theatres already, and I don't think Canterbury has one yet.

Hm .. I forgot why I had Hastings build a theatre.

1 last thing - should I bother finishing Oxford University (in the capital) before the war? If I war v AC/Washington there's a good chance I can get stone during the war.

 

[kossin]

Given the fact that OU will be worth around ~100 bpt at 100% research you also have to consider that the slider might possibly not be that high during the course of the war. (In any case, I think it'd still be worth around 60bpt). Now, you can presumably get that built in about 30 turns from now without stone, maybe a little bit less.

You're already well in route to building 6 universities (Nottingham can get one in 10 turns if you'd like). Moreover, the stone will require 2 border pops and possibly the capture of the 3 roman cities around it so I wouldn't count on it before the war is just about done.

If you want to start the war ASAP you can skip Oxford for now and get forges plus Islam temples/monasteries instead of Universities right away. (or even skip these)

Right now you have a huge military advantage in canons. Globe city is not set up however (it's building a University, then it needs a Theatre and the Globe Theater, I'm estimating upwards of 30 turn to set it up) so going all-out war right now will require a lot of hammers as your "existing army" is required as military police. Combined with the already stored hammers into Universities, I think it's hard to say to skip Oxford in the Capital right now. It will only get you faster to Rifles at which point the Globe city should be ready and Redcoats will be insane.

However, if you scrap all University plans for now, you can start the war much earlier which could also be quite profitable.

Speaking of the Globe City, I'd get a few more farms to it so you can draft as often as possible (near impossible to draft every turn on Epic). If each pop contributes a food surplus, it's worth it on this speed for better drafting efficiency.

 

[DMOC]

One of my main flaws in this round was not prioritizing Canterbury as a Globe Theatre city, since it really shouldn't be building a university right now. I'll probably cancel the university and build a theatre there. One of my souther cities will probably whip a university to meet the minimum of 6.

I'm still debating on whether it's worth it to tech to rifles and then war, or war now with inferior attacking troops, but with a good cannon advantage. My gut feeling is, right now, to tech towards Nationalism and switch to Nationhood (hopefully without anarchy), and have research at 0% for printing press while getting cannons set up. After I have about 20 cannons, then I'll start with actual attackers who can kill. To do this, I scrap my Oxford plans, so Oxford might not come until after or during the Roman/American team war.

I'll attempt to grow Canterbury as much as possible in the meantine. I have workers nearby farming already.

Does anyone else have an opinion on whether I should start ASAP, or wait until I have redcoats as well (which would ALSO mean that I have Oxford and Globe by then)? Keep in mind that I can probably trade along the way for Nationalism and Printing Press, but that only makes my rivals stronger. This reminds me - I better look up what the advantages of redcoats are anyway. I've rarely used them in my entire Civ career.

 

[kossin]

Redcoats: +25% against all gunpowder units. Comes with free CG I and Drill I with Churchill. Basically, you get an easier time against other rifles and still do well against Infantry if you tech Artillery.

Since this is the ALC, you'll want to showcase the UU, UB (rushbuy presumably) and the leader traits but I have no doubt there are plenty of wars ahead to use those.

 

[Silu]

Forgetting about ALC-specifics, I would probably go into war ASAP to leverage the advantage while you have it. On Deity the magic rifles and cannons can happen so fast it can make a grown man cry. That would indeed mean postponing Oxford.

Waiting for Rifling is valid though as well because Churchill's Rifles are almost on par with Praets for supremacy during their era. Depends on how fast you'd get them online. So I think both options are very viable

 

[DMOC]

I take it this will be an interesting weekend for me. My gut feeling is still to war ASAP but of course I do want to leverage the redcoat's abilities. And if my opponents get rifling then my redcoats are still good vs. them.

 

[r_rolo1]

Building cannons while teching towards redcoats seems a very valid path to me

 

[MrBanana]

Good game so far. You looked pretty screwed when you only had 3 citites.

BTW, how exactly did Napoleon just appear like that from Joao's colonies? I've seen "___ has put ____ in charge of _____'s overseas colonies?" How the heck does this happen, and what does it mean?

 

[Artichoker]

Building Oxford would mainly be to help you get Assembly Line faster...which you don't need with this particular leader.

So, I recommend delaying Oxford and heading straight for Riflemen, while spending your spare hammers on Cannons.

 

[Kev]

I like the idea of mass-producing cannon in anticipation of what will certainly be some sort of war coming soon. Not only will it prepare you with the siege you need while moving toward a tech to give you better attacking options, but it should increase your power rating which will hopefully hold off those who might wish to come after you before you are ready.

As far as what units to build as the compliment to the cannons, I guess the Redcoats would surely be the unit of choice. The option of going toward Military Tradition does not really work in this case as your cuirassiers would be slowed by the necessity for cannon and, of course, the lack of horses.

Still, with cannons on board you can do some pretty good stuff with maces and muskets riding along. Having a nice mix of CR maces, protective muskets, and a few pikes can certainly be enough with the advantage of cannons.

In fact, if you are still after a Great Merchant, might be nice to get some CR maces up and ready even if you do not plan to use them. They can be upgraded to Redcoats can they not? It'd be nice to have some CR Redcoats in the mix of things once you reach rifling.

 

[DMOC]

Building cannons while teching towards redcoats seems a very valid path to me

That is what I did in the next round (to be posted). The results turned out to be pretty good. I'd rate it 8 out of 10.

Good game so far. You looked pretty screwed when you only had 3 citites.

BTW, how exactly did Napoleon just appear like that from Joao's colonies? I've seen "___ has put ____ in charge of _____'s overseas colonies?" How the heck does this happen, and what does it mean?

Well, every deity game technically has the player looking screwed early, unless you play with Huayna Capac on a duel map.

What that meant was that Joao II founded some overseas cities (as you can see from the game map) and then "liberated" him which creates a random leader to rule over the colonies while as a vassal of the mother country. The rules for colonization include that you must have 2 cities or more on one separate landmass and that vassal states must be enabled. The human can liberate his or her cities by going to the domestic advisor.

Building Oxford would mainly be to help you get Assembly Line faster...which you don't need with this particular leader.

So, I recommend delaying Oxford and heading straight for Riflemen, while spending your spare hammers on Cannons.

Yes, what I did in this next round. I haven't started Oxford as of 1250 AD ish but I will have a 6th university finishing up fairly shortly and then Oxford will be built in the capital (I think that's the best city for it) with the aid of stone.

I like the idea of mass-producing cannon in anticipation of what will certainly be some sort of war coming soon. Not only will it prepare you with the siege you need while moving toward a tech to give you better attacking options, but it should increase your power rating which will hopefully hold off those who might wish to come after you before you are ready.

As far as what units to build as the compliment to the cannons, I guess the Redcoats would surely be the unit of choice. The option of going toward Military Tradition does not really work in this case as your cuirassiers would be slowed by the necessity for cannon and, of course, the lack of horses.

Still, with cannons on board you can do some pretty good stuff with maces and muskets riding along. Having a nice mix of CR maces, protective muskets, and a few pikes can certainly be enough with the advantage of cannons.

In fact, if you are still after a Great Merchant, might be nice to get some CR maces up and ready even if you do not plan to use them. They can be upgraded to Redcoats can they not? It'd be nice to have some CR Redcoats in the mix of things once you reach rifling.

I had almost no muskets and pikes at all - just redcoats and cannons. I did get a Great Merchant and upgrade about 10 macemen to redcoats.

***

The next round is done and will be posted soon. There was an unfortunate event at the end of the round which puts the outcome of the game in doubt, but we'll see. One AI becomes pretty powerful.