ALC Game #25: Celts/Boudica, Take 2
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
TM Moot
King
Hope it's a good un 
.
This must be the most anticipated round ever (Over 100 posts and 6 pages since the last one
).
.This must be the most anticipated round ever (Over 100 posts and 6 pages since the last one
).
Bandobras Took
Emperor
Hope it's a good un
This must be the most anticipated round ever (Over 100 posts and 6 pages since the last one
Actually, we might want to double-check the previous Boudica ALC, which had about 15 pages before Sisiutil announced that it was reopening.
schlaufuchs
Break My Heart
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 4: 1525 BC to 825 BC (28 turns)
As the round opened, I took the trade deal with Lincoln.
Now, look at the effect it had on my income, but also on my research.
So while I only got +1 GPT for having trade routes with Sitting Bull, the improvement shaved 4 turns off of Aesthetics. And no, Sailing is not a pre-requisite for Aesthetics. Interesting. The fact that I'm at 80% research probably has something to do with it.
Speaking of Aesthetics, I decided to stick with it as my next tech target. Some of you recommended going after Mathematics and Construction and then trading those techs, but I foresaw problems there. First off, those techs are actually very common pursuits of the AI, especially at Immortal level. Second, I currently have only two leaders to trade with, Mansa and Lincoln, and they're both quite advanced compared to me, so there's a good chance they'd get to those techs before me. As much as I like trying different strategies, going after Maths/Construction seemed like a non-starter. Aesthetics has not yet failed me as juicy trade bait, so I stuck with it.
I may be last in score, but I'm in the middle of the field for cash-on-hand:
Plus, I'm good-lookin' and the chicks dig me. Oh, wait, I'm Boudica in this game. Confusing!
Then I remembered some of you suggested begging Archery off of Mansa while he was still "Pleased", so I gave it a go.
It worked! He's a generous guy, Mansa. Too bad I'm going to kill him.
Then things started getting complicated diplomatically. I wanted to stay on good terms with everyone to pave the way for tech trading, but wouldn't you know it, people started dropping by to make impossible demands.
I turned them both down, hoping as I was to keep them both as potential tech trading partners in the near future. Besides, I hadn't even built my first Gallic Warrior yet!
I did manage to found city #3, however:
More difficult demands:
This was hard to refuse, since I do plan to convert to Confucianism soon--but not until I've gotten everything I can from the heathens (Lincoln and Mansa). But, I wanted to keep my options open for tech trades, so I said no once again even though it plunged Zara to "Cautious". I'm hoping to make up for that eventually once I do convert.
I also got the whip cracking away:
Sitting Bull was not embodying the first part of his name. He manged to build one of the early wonders:
A few turns later, I completed Aesthetics.
I then started researching Alphabet. It only took a few turns before I was able to swap Aesthetics for it:
I decided to end the round here, even though it's a short one, because there are several decision points facing me.
For example, what else can/should I trade for?
There isn't much available, as you can see. The only tempting one is Aesthetics for Mansa for Masonry and Polytheism. However, I don't have a big, pressing need for those techs at the moment... even though Poly will open up access to Literature.
Here's a look at the Foreign Advisor's Glance screen:
So is now a good time to convert to Confucianism?
Resources:
Not much available here, certainly nothing urgent that I need.
The Info screen - civics and trade routes:
Domestic advisor:
I have a couple of Gallic Warriors built now; I was thinking of chopping and whipping several more and sending them south...
... to Bantu, the barbarian city. I'd get Pigs and Iron (Pig Iron! Hah!) and my GWs would earn some valuable XPs towards Guerilla III and its big withdrawal bonus.
Gao was founded in an annoying spot--very close to me, and on a hill. I would have probably placed it 1N to claim the silk, but this way it does claim the slightly-more-lucrative 2nd riverside dye tile. Bad news: the city is protected not just by a Skirmisher, but also by an Axeman. Ouch.
I'm researching Mathematics, now pursuing the Construction military tech path. Does everyone agree on that? Should I wait and go to war only when I have Catapults, or should I do a pre-emptive strike with Gallic Warriors alone?
At any rate, the saved game file is below.
As the round opened, I took the trade deal with Lincoln.
Now, look at the effect it had on my income, but also on my research.
So while I only got +1 GPT for having trade routes with Sitting Bull, the improvement shaved 4 turns off of Aesthetics. And no, Sailing is not a pre-requisite for Aesthetics. Interesting. The fact that I'm at 80% research probably has something to do with it.
Speaking of Aesthetics, I decided to stick with it as my next tech target. Some of you recommended going after Mathematics and Construction and then trading those techs, but I foresaw problems there. First off, those techs are actually very common pursuits of the AI, especially at Immortal level. Second, I currently have only two leaders to trade with, Mansa and Lincoln, and they're both quite advanced compared to me, so there's a good chance they'd get to those techs before me. As much as I like trying different strategies, going after Maths/Construction seemed like a non-starter. Aesthetics has not yet failed me as juicy trade bait, so I stuck with it.
I may be last in score, but I'm in the middle of the field for cash-on-hand:
Plus, I'm good-lookin' and the chicks dig me. Oh, wait, I'm Boudica in this game. Confusing!
Then I remembered some of you suggested begging Archery off of Mansa while he was still "Pleased", so I gave it a go.
It worked! He's a generous guy, Mansa. Too bad I'm going to kill him.
Then things started getting complicated diplomatically. I wanted to stay on good terms with everyone to pave the way for tech trading, but wouldn't you know it, people started dropping by to make impossible demands.
I turned them both down, hoping as I was to keep them both as potential tech trading partners in the near future. Besides, I hadn't even built my first Gallic Warrior yet!
I did manage to found city #3, however:
More difficult demands:
This was hard to refuse, since I do plan to convert to Confucianism soon--but not until I've gotten everything I can from the heathens (Lincoln and Mansa). But, I wanted to keep my options open for tech trades, so I said no once again even though it plunged Zara to "Cautious". I'm hoping to make up for that eventually once I do convert.
I also got the whip cracking away:
Sitting Bull was not embodying the first part of his name. He manged to build one of the early wonders:
A few turns later, I completed Aesthetics.
I then started researching Alphabet. It only took a few turns before I was able to swap Aesthetics for it:
I decided to end the round here, even though it's a short one, because there are several decision points facing me.
For example, what else can/should I trade for?
There isn't much available, as you can see. The only tempting one is Aesthetics for Mansa for Masonry and Polytheism. However, I don't have a big, pressing need for those techs at the moment... even though Poly will open up access to Literature.
Here's a look at the Foreign Advisor's Glance screen:
So is now a good time to convert to Confucianism?
Resources:
Not much available here, certainly nothing urgent that I need.
The Info screen - civics and trade routes:
Domestic advisor:
I have a couple of Gallic Warriors built now; I was thinking of chopping and whipping several more and sending them south...
... to Bantu, the barbarian city. I'd get Pigs and Iron (Pig Iron! Hah!) and my GWs would earn some valuable XPs towards Guerilla III and its big withdrawal bonus.
Gao was founded in an annoying spot--very close to me, and on a hill. I would have probably placed it 1N to claim the silk, but this way it does claim the slightly-more-lucrative 2nd riverside dye tile. Bad news: the city is protected not just by a Skirmisher, but also by an Axeman. Ouch.
I'm researching Mathematics, now pursuing the Construction military tech path. Does everyone agree on that? Should I wait and go to war only when I have Catapults, or should I do a pre-emptive strike with Gallic Warriors alone?
At any rate, the saved game file is below.
z0wb13
undead
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2009
- Messages
- 657
so you didn't listen to me...
looking at where you are, and it still being so early, you need to whip some guerilla units to take bantu and gao. make what trades you can with mansa now, because it is time to strike. if you can move in and suicide a bunch of berserkers now, mansa will send his SoD against gao to recapture it. just stack a few archers there and wait it out. you have iron working, so he can't hide in your jungles.
i'm a builder, but it is time to strike. get some G3 units by any means necessary.
looking at where you are, and it still being so early, you need to whip some guerilla units to take bantu and gao. make what trades you can with mansa now, because it is time to strike. if you can move in and suicide a bunch of berserkers now, mansa will send his SoD against gao to recapture it. just stack a few archers there and wait it out. you have iron working, so he can't hide in your jungles.
i'm a builder, but it is time to strike. get some G3 units by any means necessary.
oynaz
Prince
I agree with Zowb. G3 Gallics do not need catapults to help them out.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
You have alphabet right now. You can also go from 4 eps to 34 eps and thus start running a good espionage game while running a pair of scientists in the capital (in 3 turns) for about 8 beakers. This would allow you to start stealing some good trade bait rather than researching it. You can also decide at the last minute what needs to be stolen (such as monopoly techs) to trade rather than manually researching only to find Mansa got it first and fire sold it.
You need to start leveling the field since your slow geering up for war. Mklh has a point that Mansa will be having longbows defending against your Gallics very soon.
You need to start leveling the field since your slow geering up for war. Mklh has a point that Mansa will be having longbows defending against your Gallics very soon.
I thought the whole *rush* was canceled, at moment granaries were ordered and Aesthetics being teched...
Honestly Si's do you believed you will be able to trade for Maths fast? AI's have hard times parting it before hanging gardens gets built. Of course Mansa would trade, but he has just same point in trying get it...
Honestly Si's do you believed you will be able to trade for Maths fast? AI's have hard times parting it before hanging gardens gets built. Of course Mansa would trade, but he has just same point in trying get it...
It's starting to look pretty late for a rush. Waiting so long might lead up like the first Saladin where you faced off against Crossbowmen against your swords. Might want to head towards economic techs and settle the area a bit and launch your war a bit later.
Bandobras Took
Emperor
Masonry for Duns and eventually Guerilla-promoted Muskets!
Burning Stone
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2008
- Messages
- 18
I'm just a newbie, but doesn't this situation demand you attack ASAP? Your leader has two warring traits and while you have unclaimed land to the north, it's pretty terrible. If you try to peacefully coexist the AIs will out tech you. You have your UU which presumably gives you a short term military advantage. You've got to take out MM.
There might be more sophisticated options I can't appreciate, such as MadScientist's spy economy or using diplomacy to get the AIs to fight each other. But everything screams attack to me.
There might be more sophisticated options I can't appreciate, such as MadScientist's spy economy or using diplomacy to get the AIs to fight each other. But everything screams attack to me.
popejubal
Emperor
That's because you get commerce from trade routes instead of gold. You got an additional 5 commerce per turn from trade routes because of the sailing, so 1 commerce went to gold and 4 commerce went to research.
The same thing will happen if you build the Great Lighthouse. You get lots more commerce from trade routes, but that gets split up between gold and research according to your slider's position.
popejubal
Emperor
At this point, you're looking at a very uncomfortable position. You need to attack soon because Mansa is going to have Longbows before too long. On the other hand, attacking before you have Catapults is a very scary proposition. For that matter, attacking Longbows with Catapults is still quite scary because you'll lose so many Catapults in the process.
Luckily, you have the solution in hand. Catapults do a lot better job if the the Longbows are even a little bit wounded, so having a Swordsman who can retreat after a partial attack makes the Catapults' job a whole lot easier. Even a big stack of Longbows is possible with 1 Catapult to suicide followed by a Geurilla III Gallic Warrior to damage that top defender.
One last thought: Geurilla I and Geurilla II don't do anything to make an attack on a city easier, so don't assign any promotions at all to the units that are going to attack Bantu. You get the same attack odds, but you get the very quick healing that comes from assigning the promotions immediately after you make that attack.
I've also seen in Fall From Heaven that I can assign promotions with that turn's earned XP if I have another promotion available to assign when I start the turn. For example, if I start with 7/2 and I get an additional 3 XP from that turn's battle, I can assign the promo for 4 XP and the promo for 8 XP even though I only just earned the XP to take me to 8 during that turn's battle. I don't remember if BTS allows this too, but it might. I'll check when I get home.
Luckily, you have the solution in hand. Catapults do a lot better job if the the Longbows are even a little bit wounded, so having a Swordsman who can retreat after a partial attack makes the Catapults' job a whole lot easier. Even a big stack of Longbows is possible with 1 Catapult to suicide followed by a Geurilla III Gallic Warrior to damage that top defender.
One last thought: Geurilla I and Geurilla II don't do anything to make an attack on a city easier, so don't assign any promotions at all to the units that are going to attack Bantu. You get the same attack odds, but you get the very quick healing that comes from assigning the promotions immediately after you make that attack.
I've also seen in Fall From Heaven that I can assign promotions with that turn's earned XP if I have another promotion available to assign when I start the turn. For example, if I start with 7/2 and I get an additional 3 XP from that turn's battle, I can assign the promo for 4 XP and the promo for 8 XP even though I only just earned the XP to take me to 8 during that turn's battle. I don't remember if BTS allows this too, but it might. I'll check when I get home.
rupertmonkey
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2007
- Messages
- 35
I think you should take the trade with Mansa and then take Gao ASAP. Masonry gives you Duns, and while Duns ain't great it's ALC, right? I haven't downloaded the save but in the screenshot Gao is population 1 which means no whipping, at least for awhile. 4 or 5 GWs should take it. Then sue for peace and build a dun in Gao, which, being on a hill, will benefit from the extra special archers. That, with the barb city, should provide a nice bulwark until you get cats.
Dhaulagiri
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2008
- Messages
- 76
I'd research towards CoL while building 15 gallics in your 2 large cities. Direct all EP's to Mansa so you know if he's closing in on Longbows, and use spys instead of cats for city defenses. Then take as many cities from Mansa as possible to form a culture border wall. Then whip courthouses and recover the economy and backfill cities slowly. With gems, you probably won't go on strike..hopefully. Close borders with Sitting Bull after the Mansa war because he's a rex fiend. All that land should put you in good shape.
That Saladin game that keeps being referenced isn't similar to this game or the last attempted one. I'd have to re-read it but I think 2 wonders were attempted and 5 or 6 cities were founded before the attack. Louis had machinery. Its not nearly that late in this game.
That Saladin game that keeps being referenced isn't similar to this game or the last attempted one. I'd have to re-read it but I think 2 wonders were attempted and 5 or 6 cities were founded before the attack. Louis had machinery. Its not nearly that late in this game.
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