[BTS] All Leaders Challenge Game 36: Pacal II / Maya

[sylvanllewelyn]

All Leaders Challenge Game 36: Pacal II / Maya

ALC 1-32 is here.

ALC 33 is here. (VICTORY) Feature(s): espionage and corporations.

ALC 34 is here. (DEFEAT) Feature(s): first deity ALC. Isolation using charismatic happiness.

ALC 35 is here. (VICTORY) Feature(s): isolation pacifist diplomatic.

Round 0: initial settling and a super-early crossroads (BC 4000 - - BC3600 T8)
Round 1: whip granaries at 11 food (BC3600 - - BC 1560 T61)
Round 2: constructing a plan (1560BC - - 650 BC T89)
Round 3a: the problem with no horses (650 BC - - 275 AD T126)
Round 3b: the wonderful Egyptians (275 AD - - 500 AD T135)
Round 4: one-city vassal (500AD - - 1300AD)
Epilogue: conceded defeat and reflections (1300AD retired)

The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that games are going to be played with each of the Civ IV leaders. With the help of all the posters who participate, an attempt will be made to make the most of the leader's unique characteristics: traits, starting techs, unit, and building. Aside from the leader, the other game settings are (mostly) kept constant for the sake of comparison. I will post the starting saved game file, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses.

Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and to make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.

In this ALC game I’ll be playing as Pacal II of Maya. In ascending leader alphabetical order, this is the first civilisation that has not been completed in the ALC series from 1 to 35.

My thoughts on this leader? Financial is generally considered the strongest when weighted across a variety of difficulties and game settings. Expansive has its fans but the magnitude feels small for me. I am nervous because the package pulls the player in every direction. Tall or wide? Early or late war? Whip or work cottages? Great scientist for lightbulb or academy? So many ways to mess-up the early game.

The UU is often compared with the dog solider. The former requires hunting and is slower to get going. Immunity to first strikes makes the former better than dog soldiers when defending flatland resource tiles against barbarian archers. Not sure what to do when barbarian axeman show up.

The UB is a significant upgrade over the colosseum but I am never sure when to build them. If I expand to several cities and then get construction early, do I want 5 ball courts, or 4 barracks and 4 catapults?

The game settings are: Deity, Inland Sea, Flat, Standard, Temperate, Medium Sea Level, Ancient Starting Era, Normal Game Speed, No Tribal Villages, No Random Events.

Spoiler :

The start.

Spoiler :

I am not sure whether I want to settle 1NE or 1SE. I like my starting gold/silver/gems on the second ring. I am not sure whether the warrior moves 1N or 1S. 1N reveals more information. 1S reveals three tiles within the starting fat cross of the settler.

 

[Mentalrock]

That looks like a pretty nice start! I'd be inclined to settle 1SE. T0 settle and the worker can improve the wet corn an extra turn earlier as well. It also saves the forest. I think I'd rather that than SIP due to being on the river and potentially grabbing more useful tiles. Sadly there doesn't appear to be any way to utilise the EXP hammer bonus for the worker.

I don't think the banana is that great and it could be settled on with another city, but others might disagree. Warrior to probably move 1N to see if he finds anything enticing.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

That looks like a pretty nice start! I'd be inclined to settle 1SE. T0 settle and the worker can improve the wet corn an extra turn earlier as well. It also saves the forest. I think I'd rather that than SIP due to being on the river and potentially grabbing more useful tiles. Sadly there doesn't appear to be any way to utilise the EXP hammer bonus for the worker.

I don't think the banana is that great and it could be settled on with another city, but others might disagree. Warrior to probably move 1N to see if he finds anything enticing.

I like my coastal capitals but I also appreciate the opinion of saving the forest. So

Round 0: initial settling and a super-early crossroads (BC 4000 - - B3600 T8)

I moved the warrior 1N and the settler 1SE. Here is what I saw.

Spoiler :

Alright, I will settle 1SE. I can't hesitate forever.

Spoiler :

First tech is agriculture. Scout around until this is done.

Picture at 3600BC - - T8

Spoiler :

Question: what are my next techs?
1. The Wheel - - > Pottery?
2. Bronze Working - - > Hunting?
3. Some other tech path?
99. Any other comments? (The best option)

 

[soundjata]

Pottery for what? Cottages?

Spoiler :

Chop Chop Chop
The gem allows some good REX funding.

Also no amazing city 2 in sight but lotsa rivers.
Maybe a case for a second worker before settler for more choppage power

Edit: south river should be explored for a potential city site.

Settle on dye ?

 

[Izuul]

I always have trouble with barbs on inland sea so BW for Holkans is nice. Pottery is also quite nice here for Fin cottages and Exp granaries which both help with the early Elepult rush.

Normally plains ivory are just OK tiles to work, but here they also give 3 commerce with Fin so they become quite nice so I do like your spot that keeps those first ring.

Gems + ivory + a handful of cottages will get you to Construction and HBR right quick - if that is where you end up going.

I think I would be looking at BW > TW > Pottery > Hunting although you could possibly flip flop Pottery and Hunting depending on timing. I would want Hunting in time to work those ivory and Pottery can wait until cities need granaries and you have spare worker turns for cottages.

 

[krikav]

Growing to pop2 before starting worker gives 6hammers toward workerat T8 working two forested tiles.
Resulting in a worker at T18 instead of T15, but already at pop2.
Lose 9 food from improving the corn 3 turns later, but gaining 24 food and 8 hammers. (warrior at 8/15 and food bar at 2/24, already harvested 22 to get to pop2, 22+2=24.

Screenshot:

Spoiler :

 

[Izuul]

@krikav
Does that ultimately lose 3T of rice and gems since all improvements are finished 3T later?

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

Agreed on BW. I think you need hunting too for Holkans, which are very nice for dealing with barbs on a barb heavy map script, so I’d probably go for that before pottery. Also agree with how nice the ivory looks. I’d be looking at that spot stagnating at size three and pushing out expansive workers.

Regarding liking gold/gems/silver, in the second ring, I assume that’s to make it easier to share? I’d never thought about that. It makes a lot of sense although it is probably less significant here given grassland gems are food neutral so may realistically be worked constantly by the capital.

 

[krikav]

@krikav
Does that ultimately lose 3T of rice and gems since all improvements are finished 3T later?

Yeah, it does. but the added population also continues to yield dividends... so it's hard to compare I guess.
Best way would probably to play with both and compare them at different checkpoints.

 

[migalhone]

@sylvanllewelyn Congratulations for your victory on ALC 35!

Oh my such a nice start: FIN/EXP, grassland gems, and wet corn!

I would move Warrior 1N, as that provides more map info, and i would settle 1SE. Farm-able riverside bananas are okay for another city spot.

EDIT: @soundjata @Izuul Please use spoiler tags when talking about in-game info not available at T0

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Please don't forget to use spoiler tags when appropriate

Nothing spoiled. I have been told to put pictures in spoiler tags for mobile users. The only "true" spoiling is shadow games that played more turns than me.

Growing to pop2 before starting worker gives 6hammers toward workerat T8 working two forested tiles.
Resulting in a worker at T18 instead of T15, but already at pop2.
Lose 9 food from improving the corn 3 turns later, but gaining 24 food and 8 hammers. (warrior at 8/15 and food bar at 2/24, already harvested 22 to get to pop2, 22+2=24.

Great, first-turn misplay already. Sigh. I had a gut feeling this "easy" leader/start was deceptive. Just have to keep going.

I always have trouble with barbs on inland sea so BW for Holkans is nice. Pottery is also quite nice here for Fin cottages and Exp granaries which both help with the early Elepult rush.
Normally plains ivory are just OK tiles to work, but here they also give 3 commerce with Fin so they become quite nice so I do like your spot that keeps those first ring.
Gems + ivory + a handful of cottages will get you to Construction and HBR right quick - if that is where you end up going.
I think I would be looking at BW > TW > Pottery > Hunting although you could possibly flip flop Pottery and Hunting depending on timing. I would want Hunting in time to work those ivory and Pottery can wait until cities need granaries and you have spare worker turns for cottages.

Yes, barbarians are mean on this map. I don't even have a lot of forest-hills to defend. Alright, that's the tech path

Pottery for what? Cottages?
Chop Chop Chop
The gem allows some good REX funding.
Also no amazing city 2 in sight but lotsa rivers.
Maybe a case for a second worker before settler for more choppage power
Edit: south river should be explored for a potential city site.
Settle on dye ?

I could settle the dye but I am not sure if it's top priority. I want to farm the banana and use that food source to work the ivory. Then, I want to found a city using the rice. Early on I like each city to have at least one food source, or at least a floodplains.

Round 1: whip granaries at 11 food (BC3600 - - BC 1560 T61)

My early-turn micromanagement is nothing to write home about. Open to criticism.

After farming the corn and the rice, I start the worker and one-pop whip it later.

Spoiler :

Somewhere along the way I made a detour to produce a holkan. I was not disappointed. Haha nice drill 2 barbarian archer. Stay put on the hill just to be safe.

Spoiler :

Haha haha ha...? More barbarians came for revenge. I had no copper so thank goodness for holkan.

Spoiler :

A less-than-useless trade for me but I got extra health to spare and I want to start accumulating "provide resources" diplo modifiers.

Spoiler :

Side note: why the inefficient writing-before-AH? Because I had grassland gems and I can. (I had no animal resources to work and wanted to put a few production a bit earlier for the library in the capital.)

Actually, AH doesn't even do anything for me. Why did I even do it? I was on autopilot. Fishing, and then producing a fishing boat to explore, would have been infinitely more useful. (Sorry.)

Another critical juncture at 1560BC (T61). I just finished AH, and I just finished a settler. At least I confirmed that I had no horses. Thank goodness for the holkan UU. Otherwise I would have needed archery.

Spoiler :

Judging from the appearance of barbarian cities, Roosevelt is far to the North and would not be touching borders with me in the near future. Zara Yaqob is creative and has been settling towards me day 1. I did not appreciate the location of Debre Berhan and the taking of the corn tile. At. All.

Q1: where do I put the new settler that I just whipped out? On the dyes and then pass-on the gems? Next to marble to secure it? (how? 1N of the marble to help capital to work cottages? Or 1SW of the marble to work the rice?) Somewhere else entirely?

Q2: which tech do I research next? Standard gameplay is aesthetics. Other options may possibly be better. I am a bit lost.

Q3: what do I build in my cities? My "autopilot" is library in capital. What about other cities? More settlers and workers (and where do I plant those cities?) Build barracks? Build libraries? Train 5 more holkan and try to take out the barbarian city? (I got 2 right now).

Q4: do I need preemptive monuments in cities where I border Zara Yaqob? He is creative. In the long-run I could face revolts.

 

[konata_LS]

Another ALC, nice

Wet Corn + river + Gem is a strong start for a FIN leader who has Mining

About the tech path... It depends on your short-term and long-term goals. And this map offers you some flexibility:

• Since there is still some land up north and a Marble nearby, if you want to REX until Renaissance era, then Aesthetics-Literature to grab GLib, or Calendar for unlock dye and MoM, or cottage these riverside tiles and going for Space. In this case, building Sistine and cultural victory would be an option as well .
• If you feel a little upset very angry about Zara's border pressure and the stolen horse near Lakamha, HBR-Math-Masory-Construction for Elepults Zara is worth considering .

PS: Do you know that you could ask a third party to pre-check the map in ALC? The former hoster of ALC, @ Sisiutil, did it in the ALC16 . As he said in that post: "Welnic was kind enough to check the start and has confirmed that I am not isolated, and that there are horses somewhere in the vicinity. This was done because, frankly, an isolated start without horses would have been a waste of Cyrus' best features."
So, in the future ALCs, if you want to show the power of East Indians or Carracks but don't want an Iso map, you may invite some forum members to check if the map is Iso or not.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

My default goal is usually to win in the fewest number of turns. I don't care about victory type. I believe domination is the most straight-forward on this map. As an ALC game, there is an additional goal of showcasing the leader's traits, UU, and UB.

(For this game, I believe the UU has proven its worth? Around 2000BC, I put a holkan and a warrior into the forest-hill 2NW of the capital. Three barbarian archers attacked but my units held).

I could ask someone to check the map beforehand. I am wary about what to check for. For example, if I play Rome, which BTW has not been played in the ALC series, I do - - not - - want to know if there is iron nearby. Rome's UB, the forum, is great for isolation, and rather useless elsewhere. Which side of Rome is more interesting?

Anyway back to this game... I can't make up my mind! But I have to decide or I can't really proceed.

If I go aesthetics - polytheism - literature - music for the curaisser route, then I will put my settler next to the marble and keep building more settlers.

If I go mathematics - masonry - construction - HBR, then I will put my settler 4W of the barbarian city [EDIT: no; 3W of the capital. More production, lower maintenance]. Ignore the marble. Stay at five (5) cities and start building barracks.

Right now I am inclined not to go for calendar unless others also think I should. It only unlocks dyes (bananas give health which I don't lack). It doesn't unlock any techs until astronomy, which I don't need in the near future.

 

[Izuul]

This start ticks a lot of the boxes for Cuirs but it is missing a couple of major ones. Your land is rather food poor so you aren't likely to get enough quality cities here unless you can get some of that land around the barb city. I think the AI usually gets over 10 cities on inland sea so you're likely to be at quite a size disadvantage if you wait that late to attack. It also appears you may have missed out on horses. It's often possible to trade for those later, but not always. Hopefully you at least have iron.

A Construction war doesn't exactly look like a walk in the park either since you have basically no forests to chop units, but you do at least have the gems for a little extra happiness to help with whipping and Eles are quite strong if you get them early enough.

As for Calendar - i rarely self tech that one and i definitely would not on this map. The AI freely trades that tech once MoM is completed and the one dye is really your only important Calendar resource.

 

[Fippy]

Saves are best, but resource bubbles minumum for giving help..imo.

 

[Nick723]

I find inland sea as a map script often gives this type of situation. Lots of land but of a relatively poorer quality than say fractal (almost like the resources have been spread more thinly over a larger area). This makes it tougher for the human player.

In this case I would go for a construction attack, Ethiopia is nice and close already and will develop some nice land for you. On the tech path for that one though - surely you go construction before horseback riding to allow you to start on catapults? I guess HBR first allows for stables but I think they are of secondary importance.

 

[Izuul]

Yeah, Construction first when going for Elephants.

 

[konata_LS]

Ah, so when going for a Construction-based attacks, it's better to "research Construction and start building catapults" than to "research HBR first and build stables". I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me about the right tech order!

So please forget about what I suggested in #12 . When going for Elepults, Maths-Masony-Construction-HBR is better than HBR first.

About Mayan UU, this ALC certainly already showed the power of Holkans against barb archers.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Your land is rather food poor so you aren't likely to get enough quality cities here unless you can get some of that land around the barb city.

I read every comment. This one helped me make up my mind

Round 2: constructing a plan (1560BC - - 650 BC T89)

The map with resource bubbles:

Spoiler :

If I don't have enough food, then I should settle more cities and settle them near flood plains. This settles towards America. So I plan attack America instead. Egypt will probably spread religion towards Ethiopia and then hopefully to me. I can then convert to Buddhism and secure one flank.

I said I had a settler ready. I planted it to block off the Ethiopians.

Spoiler :

Noticing that the leaders are religious-oriented, I took a chance and went alphabet, which I got in 1000BC (T75), instead of directly to mathematics

Spoiler :

Made a couple of (unfair?) trades. No diplo points gained.

Spoiler :

Construction ready by 750BC. I then decided to do whip out a ball court in the capital. I probably should be focused on whipping out units in every city including the capital. But I also wanted the capital to work cottages so that my technology did not completely stagnate when I attack. My impression is that elephant-catapults can take cities but not actually kill someone, because I am not the Aztecs.

Spoiler :

Lots of pillaged gold from barbarian city. I finish HBR by 650BC. State of the kingdom

Spoiler :

In the next few turns, my stack of veteran Holkan will attack the barbarian city further north. The settler will be whipped and planted at the sign. I am hoping that with more cities, I can work more floodplains, and whip more units.

This will put me to a total of seven (7) cities. Not the standard five-city construction attack. My knock-off version will have to do.

Questions:

1. My first great scientist is coming up in six (6) turns.
1a. My default plan is to research metal casting > machinery and then lightbulb engineering (By then I believe I can get aesthetics from somewhere.).
1b. I can research metal casting and then lightbulb machinery. Then I research other things. (Like?)
1c. Academy in capital. My capital is high-commerce but even then it's getting too cute. But the option exists.

2. What is the ratio of catapults to elephants?

3. Assuming a typical city is 50% defense with walls. How low do I bombard it before attack? How many catapults do I suicide before I send in the elephants? (Say, for every N defenders, just for ease of exposition).

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Ah, so when going for a Construction-based attacks, it's better to "research Construction and start building catapults" than to "research HBR first and build stables". I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me about the right tech order!

So please forget about what I suggested in #12 . When going for Elepults, Maths-Masony-Construction-HBR is better than HBR first.

About Mayan UU, this ALC certainly already showed the power of Holkans against barb archers.

Most of the time.

Scenario where HBR first makes sense... maybe you are cornered, but have both horses and ivory? Horse archer attack, lightbulb mathematics, follow-up with elephants? Not sure.

The consensus is that stables are not worth it.