All Leaders Challenge Game Strategy Session: Montezuma

[merandaBlue]

(3rd Round: to 775 BC)

Notice the Pyramids in the build queue in the capital? Yeah, I had a few turns after the Barracks were built and before Iron Working was discovered. So I started the 'mids, since it seemed a waste of hammers to build anything else. Even if someone else finishes them, I stand to collect a little extra gold.

But...decisions, decisions, decisions. Methinks it's crunch time, kids, time to separate the Jaguars from the Armadillos...whatever the heck that means.

State Religion: I've been holding off setting Buddhism as my SR, but I'm thinking I should. At this point the only one I'll tick off is Ghandi, and he's #2 on my list anyway. This would give me +2 GPT, +3 when it spreads to Tlatelolco, and stop me bleeding gold for awhile.

I should also start thinking about spreading the religion to Peter and Qin. It would keep both of them off my back while I go after Hatty, then Ghandi, and contribute additional gold into my coffers. I wouldn't be surprised if Qin snags Taoism or Confucianism before me and converts, but that's a ways down the road. Peter rarely founds a religion if he has competition, in my experience, so converting him would cement our friendship for a long time...at least until I'm ready to stab him in the back.

("How can you sleep at night?!?" I don't, I'm playing Civilization!)



Happiness: The capital is about to reach its limit on this. I could avoid growth by switching working the wheat tile for one of the riverside grasslands (where I could build my first cottage). Should I do that, or grow the population and whip them for units?

As always in this exercise, I look forward to and appreciate your input.

I think I would manage the unhappiness through slavery, using the excess people for early units, since your planning an attack soon on Hattie and she has horses (we have to assume animal husbandry).

The downside to this, of course, is that it messes with your deficit/tech speed ratio.

As to happiness, if you manage to pull off the pyramids, than you can manage your unhappiness through civics and enable your population to explode.

Pottery: I agree it was the way to go, I think you should go for priesthood though and try to build the oracle. That free tech, and more importantly, keeping that tech out of anyone else's hands, is important. If you have writing out of the way while you build it, you can grab alphabet and concentrate on the military techs you have had to temporarily abandon, or you can study alphabet and take something else from the oracle.

As to where to build it, early game wonder strategy is difficult for me. I tend to try and build all my wonders in one city for along time, cumulating my gp points and popping a person every 7 - 10 turns during the late-early game, which is helpful on many levels. The problem with that, is early wonders go obsolete soon, bringing those GP points back down, and my GP tend to be all of one type, either Prophets or artists.

Horse Archers - I have found horse archers to be a very useful unit in early game wars. They have six hit points, and move two squares. They make great pillaging machines, but you have mentioned that you prefer not to pillage. Don't underestimate the power of attrition in an early game war. While I don't usually study archery at all <I know, gasp cough cough, sacrilege for many) when I have archery and animal husbandry and horse back riding <Horse back riding is something else I usually wait on until it's 1 or 2 turns, or I get it from someone else> Horse Archers are a nice cherry.

 

[The Tyrant]

First, he says he's sleepy, then a few lines later he says work calls. Sleepy at work? Hey, I own Civ IV. I'm sleepy aaaaaaalll the time! It's a good thing we have free coffee at work.

A couple of observations from the map:

Hatty settled just SE of the horses. Not bad, since the tiles west of the city can eventually be used to feed it. It will be possible to send a workboat from another city to work the clams, but that still leaves the city with three coastal tiles and no access to the coast. No way to build a lighthouse. Those coastal tiles are going to be practically worthless for that city. It has the same number of desert, desert hill and oasis tiles that city site #5 had, but it trades coastal tiles for plains and grassland. Keeping it would mean yet another inland city rather than coastal, and the original site for #5 allows seven coastal tiles. I'm thinking that city looks like a candidate for the torch.

Peter starts with Hunting and has a camp on an ivory tile. He now has ivory and eventually will end up riding Elephants into battle. Yes, even this early I try to gauge my opponents' ability to wage war. It is never too early and no detail is too small. Placing a city there for the copper was a good call, but making it his second city instead of the third means he really stunted his early growth.

The Pyramids: You've got stone, so you've got a shot. If you get them, that's huge. Not just for Representation, but for the flexibility to switch to US much earlier than normally possible. Do I see only 18 turns left to build the Pyramids? Yes, go for it! That will mean more Great Prophet points, right? Looks like you're headed for a very "spiritual" Aztec empire. Heh, and with barracks in all three cities, you'll have a spiritual/aggressive empire. Hmm...

Trade: Fishing and Sailing? I agree -- with the current situation, those can wait to be traded for. There are more pressing research priorities right now.

War: I would go exclusively axemen. Of course, I never use swordsmen, and Jags are weaker versions of swords. They are great if you don't have copper, but you've got it so I would go with axemen to the exclusion of all other unit types until Hatty is taken out. Hatty's UU can be very annoying, and by the time you get an assault group built and over there, she will definitely have chariots. Send an extra axeman, and be sure he's a medic. Of course, as merandaBlue pointed out, horse archers would make a nice thing to have if there are chariots around. Decisions, decisions.

Expansion: How high a priority is City #4? Well, it won't be ready to produce units quickly until after it grows. If you're going for the Pyramids in the capital, and have another city build a settler, that will delay the first war a bit. If you opt for a very early war, that would mean cities #2 and #3 have to focus exclusively on units from now until the end of the first war, which would delay expanding to site #4 (a really good site). I'm normally in favor of war as early as possible, but this time I think it might be better to wait until you have four cities producing units. IMO, getting city #4 up and growing early will have more of an impact in the long run than gearing up to take out Hatty right now.

Happiness: Not being financial, Monty can use all the commerce he can get. I think switching to work a cottage would be good at least until it is time to gear up for war. You already have a barracks, and the other major building (granary) is right around the corner. Having a granary will offset some of the damage from the whip, allowing the city to grow back much more quickly. I would rather whip a granary than a unit. Just wait until the granary only requires two pop points before you whip it (I think it originally needs three but quickly drops to two). Or, you can build the granary the slow way and wait until it is done before using the whip. I wouldn't whip a unit without having a granary first, though.

 

[Sisiutil]

Hmmm...try for a couple more early wonders and delay the first war? That IS the way I usually play, so I'll certainly be in my comfort zone.

Since I delayed the Pyramids to build a Jaguar, I'm thinking a chop or two will be required. There is one more forested grasslands/river tile that is crying out for a cottage, after all.

A CoL slingshot would be sweet; I think CS is out of the question, I spent too much time on other techs. I'll switch to Priesthood after Pottery and get that going in my second city; more chopping needed because of the delay. Good thing I built a 2nd worker. Again, even if I fail, I get gold as consolation--which I could use to upgrade that Level 3 Warrior to an Axe.

Meanwhile, I'll take out the barb city, build #4, and get 3 + 4 pumping out axemen. When the Wonders are done, one way or another, the war trumpets shall echo across the land...

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

One thing I noticed from your screenshots is that if you had built a more crooked road from the copper city down to the capital, you could have saved a few worker turns, that is, unless you had some other reason for building the road across the hills. In particular, each of the roads across a hill took 1 movement turn plus N road turns (I forget how long it takes to build a road -- 2? 3?). If you had instead roaded across the two tiles heading southeast from the copper city (the tiles directly west and south of the sheep), the worker could have moved and started the road on the same turn, and the overall roadway would be the same length for your units to travel.

Anyway, that's picking nits, but I always try to find the path with the most flatlands for building a road.

 

[Fetch]

I'm really enjoing reading the play-by-play here. It's helping me with my game (especially the tech aspect) a lot. Hatty's days are indeed numbered.

Also, PLEASE rename your cities. They all start with T and are about 15 charactes long, like that's not confusing!

 

[Sisiutil]

Doc, good point about the road--I think I was focused on providing the most direct route to the south so units built in that city can get to where they're needed.

I AM gonna rename the cities: Mexico City, Tijuana, and Cancun. As a Canuck it gives me perverse delight to have Cancun on a tundra tile. Any other cites I build will also get Mexican names...sort of. (Chihuahua is next. Hey, there IS a Mexican city with that name, okay? It got me thinking, though. After that, it's Fajita, Burrito, Chalupa... is that culturally insensitive of me? Too bad.)

 

[Thrar]

Adopting Hinduism would give you 1 happiness in all hindu cities - definitely a good thing. With 3 or 4 hindu cities total, no need for the shrine now - even a super priest would do better.
I wouldn't use any jaguars. Axemen for the conquering, and against Hatty a spear or two in each group. Axers are on even terms against war chariots, but cost twice as much, so don't use them exclusively!
Don't forget to get some police in your cities. You'll get at least one less unhappiness. One for that, one for religion, that's two. No need for monarchy soon I think.

 

[The Tyrant]

Chihuahua is next. Hey, there IS a Mexican city with that name, okay?

Si, hace unos anos, pero yo vivi in la ciudad de Chihuahua por 5 mesas. (And yes, I know my Spanish sucks).

 

[Sisiutil]

(4th Round: to 250 BC)

First off, a couple of sidebars about this whole experiment.

It's very interesting to play a game this way, and it takes some additional discipline. Like all other Civ players, I suffer from the common "just...one...more...turn..." syndrome. But I have to force myself to stop at key points so I can post about my progress here and, more importantly, get everyone's input before proceeding to make too many key decisions. I think I go through games too quickly sometimes; posting my progress here makes me slow down and consider things more carefully. I'm hoping I can keep doing that even when I'm not posting every few turns of my future games here on the board.

I hope everyone else is getting something out of it too. I deeply appreciate everyone's contributions, even if I don't follow your advice. Believe me, I'll keep all those pointers in mind--or at least try to--for future games.

And I now fully understand Tyrant's enthusiasm over my having copper, regardless of its location. After I posted last night, I got restless and started a new, different game. I found myself on a continent with Caesar, Mansa, and Isabella--and I had NO copper, horses, or iron available! I tried taking on Rome using only Archers. You can imagine how that went. It was a very short game. After that, I can totally understand the AI Peter putting his second city in the middle of the desert just to get copper.

Anyway, on to Round 4!

Well, after everyone urging me to give the Oracle a go, I should have known this would happen:



Can you believe it? And on the very next turn, too! Not that I'm surprised--with all those military techs, especially the long pursuit of Iron Working, I delayed any hope of building the Oracle. Then again, I wasn't planning on it, especially since I lack Marble; I would have had to chop like crazy. I've found that if you want the Oracle on Prince, you have to move towards it very quickly, and at the exclusion of many other very useful techs.

Many other things, however, went off according to plan. First, that barb city:



The 38 gold will allow me to run my research at 100% a little while longer, and the worker was a welcome bonus. Not only that, my two Jaguars gained Level 3 status. I made one a medic and left the other unpromoted for now, but I suspect he and a lot of other units will be getting the Cover promotion. Check out Hatty's newest cities and how they're defended:





Granted, those are just the ones I've been able to see (that Scout is still proving useful), but Archers and Warriors are gonna fold like a lawn chair before Axemen and Jaguars.

I'm taking everyone's advice--now that copper is available, I'm only producing Axemen and Spearmen (and one Archer per city with a City Garrison promotion for defense, though they'll be supplemented by Axemen). I just about have my first Stack o' Doom ready, and none too soon. A few turns later, Hatty's damn Cultural trait kicked in, and Alexandria took the two plains tiles to its north and northwest away from Tijuana. (Yep, renamed the cities as promised! Much easier).

Aaaaaaaaand...GREAT news!



YES!!! The stone pays off again, along with another chop and that iron mine. I switched to Representation immediately (and without a turn of anarchy! I LOVE that). I may still whip, but my cities, especially the capital, can all grow a little larger now without any happiness buildings. I have to focus on building my army.

Notice I'm still pursuing civilian techs. I've rolled up Pottery (and am building my first cottages), Priesthood, Writing, and am working on Code of Laws. Yeah, I'm hoping to land Confucianism too, which is why I bypassed Alphabet for the moment. It's next. Even if I don't pull that off, I'm going to need those courthouses pretty soon.

And a few turns later, look who came begging for iron:



Talk about tipping your hand. Of course I turned her down flat. Mind you, it's going to make that iron mine near Tijuana very attractive to her, and if I wait much longer, her +2 culture in the nearest city could put it within her borders. War is imminent, my friends. Hatty also converted to Hinduism and changed to Organized Religion.

Elsewhere on the diplomacy front, once my fourth city was built (right on top of the elephants as we discussed--I named it Acapulco), I negotiated Open Borders with Qin and Peter. I kind of felt sorry for them--they'd come asking a few turns before; Qin had a Warrior and Peter a Scout trapped near the barb city thanks to mine and Hatty's borders. But I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for their settlers heading into my back country, which I won't be settling for some time. If I see that, I'm cancelling the agreement pronto. Nevertheless, I'm hoping to spread my religion to them, though it will have to be by accident at this point.

Speaking of religion:



Yep, I got what I hope is my first Great Prophet of many and burned him to get Theology, exactly according to plan! So now I have two religions and am close to obtaining a third. (Cancun is Christianity's holy city. A bit ironic, given the shenanigans that occur there at Spring Break, no?) I have now set Buddhism as my state religion to take advantage of the Theology civic I just changed to. I'm hoping it will spread to the new city of Acapulco and to Cancun on its own, but I'm going to have to build a monastery eventually. It just may be sooner rather than later. But not until the war is clearly going my way. In case you're wondering, I have the free Christian missionary heading for the capital, but I'm not sure I'll use him just yet. I will eventually spread the new faith, but as I said, I'm hoping Buddhism will spread on its own.

Here are the cities at 250 BC:









Those three general-purpose specialists, by the way, are temporary. But they have shortened the research time on CoL from 9 turns to 7. Good thing, too--I'm running out of money. I checked and can currently break even at 70% on the science slider. Not bad. But I want to keep at 100% for CoL, and that means taking one of Hatty's cities for the war booty within then next few turns.

So, I have a few areas where I'd appreciate guidance:

Religion: Should I burn the missionary in Mexico City and see where the religion spreads to? I can change state religions penalty-free, and I want whichever one spreads to most of my cities for the XP bonus from Theology. What's the best way to proceed?

War: Do you think I can get Hatty to declare on me? That's always preferable, since it delays and reduces war weariness. I have a "heathen" religion now, and iron right on her border, which she obviously wants. But I don't want to wait too long before going to war--I've waited long enough, some players would say too long. Representation will help with WW, and I can now switch to Police State anytime I want. I'm leaning towards moving my first few attack units to the border, declaring, and going in. Thoughts?

Along those lines, where should I attack first? Alexandria and Heliopolis both look like weak, easy targets, and I suspect the city near the gold mines is very similar. I've only seen warriors and archers in Hatty's territory, which makes me wonder if she has copper to compound her lack of iron. But we know she can produce chariots, even if I haven't seen any. Should I head straight for Thebes instead, taking the risk that it's badly defended too? I'm worried that thanks to her Cultural trait it will, by now, have a very high defense %. Should I delay, sign an Open Borders agreement, and send my Scout in there for intel?

And raze or keep? I'm thinking of razing everything except her capital. I don't need the maintenance costs, or the headache of trying to defend those captured cities. I run the risk of barbs (minor--more easy XPs) and of having the other civs resettle the area, but I'm planning on eventually taking them all out. Should I plan to build a settler or two near the end of the war to fill in that territory?

Wonders: I'm pretty much done with the early wonders. The Parthenon would be nice, but I don't have marble and I do have a war to fight. Qin built the Oracle, I found out; maybe he (or Hatty or Ghandi or Peter) will build the Oracle so I can take it from them.

However, thanks to the Pyramids, I now have a 50/50 chance of Great Prophets and Great Engineers. I'll probably build a temple and assign a priest specialist in Mexico City so I can get the shrines going, but I know I'll get a GE or two. Which Wonders should I burn them on? National ones I'll want like Heroic Epic? The Great Library, since I could really use the tech boost (and is Mexico City currently my best choice for a science city?) I'm even thinking of Angkor Wat, which practically turns priest specialists into engineers, with a monetary bonus. I've never built it before, but as a religious warmonger, I'm thinking it could be darn useful.

Research: After CoL I plan on going after Alphabet for tech trading/extorting. What should I pursue after that? Much will depend on what I can trade/extorst, but I'm thinking back to military: Mathematics -> Construction for catapults and war elephants first off. Hatty's +2 culture will likely mean Thebes has a really good cultural defense. Then Literature for HE and the Great Library, then Calendar for those all those happy-happy-joy-joy resources, and currency for my economy. But I also have to fit Monarchy -> Feudalism in there for Vassalage and Longbowmen. The path to Guilds beckons as well, so I can build knights to really take advantage of those horses. Thoughts?

As always, thanks for paying attention and for your opinions. Below is the latest game save.

 

[Sisiutil]

I had an idea while walking my dog after posting (more proof that pausing rather than one-more-turning is profitable, and that dogs are, indeed, man's best friend).

I now have four cities capable of producing military units for the war. Only two can take advantage of the Theocracy bonus, whether I stay as Buddhist or convert to Christianity. Ideally, all four cities should have the bonus. But I would have to divert production from military to monastery - missionary - missionary.

So.

Leave SR on Buddhism for now. Build units in the two Buddhist cities and Acapulco when it's ready. Use my free Christian missionary in the capital. In Cancun, the Christian holy city and the one furthest from the front, change to building a Christian monastery, then two missionaries. Spread Christianity to Acapulco and Tijuana. Convert to Christianity, change Cancun's production to military, and now ALL my cities can produce units with the Theology XP bonus.

Sound like a plan?

 

[The Tyrant]

Pressed for time so just some quick thoughts:

Don't wait for Hatty to declare. If you do, she'll wait until she has a stack to march into your territory and she'll arrive with pillaging chariots. Take the war to her, keep it on her territory, hit her hard and fast and keep her on the defensive.

Might be a good idea to use open borders and the scout to check out Thebes first. Even if you declare while the scout is at Thebes, he'll be bounced to edge of her territory. Might lose him but the intel would be worth it.

Burning the missionary in the capital can't hurt. Whichever religion becomes dominant doesn't really matter since you can capitalize on it either way. I wouldn't delay for the Theocracy benefit in all cities. From this moment on you're at war, even if it hasn't been declared yet. Half your cities can produce units with the free Combat 1 promotion (and only 2 XP from their next promo) and half can produce units with the freebie and an additional promotion. That will be sufficient for the first war. In fact, that's better promotions than I usually have when I declare my first war. I would go full war-time production from now until the end of the war.

 

[The Tyrant]

Because of the terrain and borders, you won't be able to head straight for Thebes without marching past another city on your way. You say you can currently run the science slider at 70% without losing money. That means taking cities that are more distant than the "inner ring" you dotmapped already would mean much higher upkeep costs. Initially you could keep those costs low by whipping the population (lower population = lower upkeep). That will only work for a while, though. I foresee a 50% science rate in the near future.

Keep a couple of things in mind when reading the checklist below. First, I'm a warmongerer. I prefer early war and that generally means I start wars before I feel I'm really ready for them. If I wait until I'm confident I can win, I probably waited too long. Secondly, and related to the first point, early war is a gamble. If it pays off, it pays off big time. If it doesn't, you've stunted your early development and it will haunt you for a good portion of the game.

That said, I think the odds are in your favor. A few more units and you should be ready to march.
1. Check Hatty's capital with the scout to see how well defended it is, and determine what you'll need to send at it to take it.
2. If it looks like you can take it, march that many units plus a couple in that direction, razing cities between you and Thebes.
3. Take Thebes, sob when you see how much it will cost you in upkeep.
4. Realize that 50% science is perfectly fine if it nets you a capital. Cottages will get you back to 70%, which seems to be the sweet spot balancing money and research. Raze most other cities, keeping only those with critical resources or ones which look like they could pay for themselves soon.
5. If you do send your initial stack deep into her territory, you'll need to be producing a secondary stack (just has to be large enough to take the smaller cities). Once the main stack gets too far from your territory, you won't be able to use them to respond to threats on your borders. This means you can research whatever you want, but city production has to remain all military units for a while.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Because of the terrain and borders, you won't be able to head straight for Thebes without marching past another city on your way.

I'm watching this thread in large part to learn how to be more agressive about war in the early game. I consider myself a non-recovering (but I wouldn't mind recovering) builder. Since you seem to be an experienced warmonger, can you elaborate on a few things?

Let's say for the sake of argument that you were going to attack Egypt on the next turn. Would you bypass Thebes, going straight for Heliopolis and then the capital, leaving Thebes for a second wave of attacks? Or would you try to catch Thebes in round one to prevent Egypt from launching counterattacks from there?

(*) Note: If Thebes is the name of the Egyptian capital, I might be talking about Alexandria when I say Thebes. I don't want to take the time to re-run the game to check. I mean the city that's more or less due east from Heliopolis and south of some Aztec city (Tijuana?).

You or someone else has mentioned bringing enough units to cycle through the defenders twice. How do you change that rule of thumb if you need to account for extenuating circumstances like the following?

What if you need to attack another city (Heliopolis) on the way to your primary goal (the capital)? How do you account for casualties? Do you bring 3X, reinforce while you heal?

What if you have high amounts of defense (hills, walls, creative culture) to deal with? Do you forget about that city and come back later with catapults? Just bring more guys?

Do you worry much about pillaging? For example, Egypt looks like it has only one fairly isolated source of horses (near the gold mines). Would you try to pillage that or just hope you finish the war quickly enough that you don't need to worry about additional chariots?

That's a lot of questions. ;-) Thanks in advance.

 

[Sisiutil]

Yes, you're right, I think I need the intel, otherwise it's hard to know where the first stack should go. I'd hate to send them all the way in the Thebes only to find it has 80% defense bonus, is on a hill, and is guarded by over a half-dozen Axemen. I doubt all of that, but I hate charging in blind.

However, I think I sent my Scout eastwards, to check out how Qin is also encroaching on my territory. I might have to do the recon with that Jaguar on the desert hill.

My own preference is to attack as follows, if the intel bears it out:



The yellow lines are for stack #1, which is near completion, and will consist of all my Jaguars (I have 4, IIRC), 2-4 Axemen, and a Spearman. The white lines are for stack #2, which has yet to be built and will take to the field later, probably during the attack on Thebes. It may, initially, have to absorb a counter-attack from the south and/or deal with pillagers.

My thinking is, first off, I need a quick, early victory for war booty to keep my research at 100% and to get CoL ASAP; I also have a Level 3 Warrior in Tijuana I'd like to upgrade to an Axeman. If I take out City #1, I will probably deny Hatty her only source of horses and deprive her of the ability to build a formidable counter-attack unit, the War Chariot; I'll pillage the pasture if I have to in order to make sure of that.

The only thing that gives me pause is that the unit that takes (and razes) City 1 will then be on a desert tile with no defense bonus that is VERY close to Thebes and a potential counter-attack. It's not a show-stopper, but that unit could be injured and may get killed on the following turn. To take the city, I'll have to use the unit I would least mind losing. I'd prefer not to have it earn a promotion by taking the city and then get killed. I hate it when that happens!

Going after Thebes, which I'm 99% certain is where I have City #2 on this map, will serve a second purpose, even if I need to wait for reinforcements. It could absorb Hatty's counter-attack, keeping her away from the territory around Tijuana. I'm not counting on it, of course. There is a convenient forest right next to Thebes--assuming it's still there, which it probably is; the AI is very slow to chop, even next to its own cities. If I'm lucky, one of the dark tiles around Thebes may even be a forested hill.

I expect to get bogged down at Thebes for awhile, since it will probably be better defended. Also, I will likely have wounded to heal after City #1 falls. That gives me time to send in reinforcements and build stack #2. Heck, if Hatty shows up offering me a tech/peace deal at that point, I'll probably take it.

I'm planning on a risky, direct route to City A (Alexandria), even though it's across open ground. That will depend on how well it's defended by the time Stack #2 is ready to go. It's fast and risky (2 turns to attack) versus slow and safe (7 turns going west over the hills and through the forests). I'm leaning towards being audacious; my main concern is War Chariots, but Hatty is likely to have used them to pillage around Tijuana, in which case my Axemen should have taken them out.

(By the way, have you noticed that Hatty has an camp on that Elephant tile near City B (Heliopolis)? I'm really hoping she doesn't have Construction yet--I'd rather not face War Elephants!)

The grand finale is to have the stacks converge on City 3/C. Stack #1 will have been weakened by the attack on Thebes, and will have had to leave a couple of units behind to defend it--though it's not a holy city and has no Wonders, it's still a capital, so it's the one city I'm planning on keeping. After it falls, I'm in a very good position to launch my next war against Ghandi, who is just a little ways southwest.

Let me know what you think of this battle plan. And do you agree on razing everything but Thebes? City 1 and City A (Alexandria) have got to go, their locations suck. Cities B and 3/C, however, don't seem so badly situated. I think I'll take Thebes and then, as Tyrant suggested, see what maintenance is like. Keep in mind I'll be able to build courthouses around the time this war gets started.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I had been assuming Thebes was city 3C in the far southwest, but after looking at the cultural borders again I think you're probably right. That makes some of my earlier questions kind of nonsensical.

At this point I guess the debate is whether to go #1->#2 or to just go directly to Thebes starting from the forested hill northwest of the elephants. It looks like you could get to Thebes in just 2 turns of hiking through the forest. Still, taking out #1 first is probably a good idea, since otherwise you leave Tijiuana open to a 2 front counterattack and you don't take out the horses.

As far as raze vs. keep, obviously the wait and see approach is always a good one, but my first inclination would be to raze B. If you rebuilt it 1 square north and 2 squares east, you'd be on a river with both dyes, bananas, and rice. Production is going to be lousy, but you could turn it into a nice commerce or GP city. I think you would have sufficient food surplus to cottage every tile.

 

[Sisiutil]

As far as raze vs. keep, obviously the wait and see approach is always a good one, but my first inclination would be to raze B. If you rebuilt it 1 square north and 2 squares east, you'd be on a river with both dyes, bananas, and rice. Production is going to be lousy, but you could turn it into a nice commerce or GP city. I think you would have sufficient food surplus to cottage every tile.

Or rebuild one more tile east, and I gain a grassland hill and a gem mine. That's City # 7 on my last dot map. Awesome commerce/GP farm, methinks. Qin is already squatting near site #8, BTW, and keeping Thebes and maybe City 3/C would make me seriously reconsider where to put Cities #5 and #6 from that dot map.

I like the idea of jutting my territory straight south like that, especially as I'm anticipating going after Peter and/or Qin mid-game. Plus if I don't do it soon after razing B, I know they'll just beat me to it.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Or rebuild one more tile east, and I gain a grassland hill and a gem mine.

Oh yeah. And still on the river. That's much better. The production will be much better at that site. You won't need to struggle quite so much to get the necessary buildings completed.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I'm planning on a risky, direct route to City A (Alexandria)

I don't think this is risky at all. The risk would be wasting 7 turns wandering around in the rain forest playing ecotourist while she launches counterattacks and fortifies with better defenders. Any city you can destroy 2 turns into a war should be destroyed 2 turns into the war. End of discussion.

Let me know what you think of this battle plan. And do you agree on razing everything but Thebes? City 1 and City A (Alexandria) have got to go, their locations suck. Cities B and 3/C, however, don't seem so badly situated. I think I'll take Thebes and then, as Tyrant suggested, see what maintenance is like. Keep in mind I'll be able to build courthouses around the time this war gets started.

Looking at City 3/C again, I'm feeling even more strongly that you should probably raze it. There are all sorts of reasons to raze it:

• it's going to be very far away from your capital and the core of your empire (read expensive)
• it missed being on the river by one tile. I don't know about you, but that always bugs me
• the resources it would net you are mostly ones you can get elsewhere (all but fish)
• other?

There's really only one reason to keep it -- to cover territory. As far as that goes, I think you'd be better off just letting someone else settle there and then keep that city (or raze and replace).

 

[Sisiutil]

Oh yeah. And still on the river. That's much better. The production will be much better at that site. You won't need to struggle quite so much to get the necessary buildings completed.

Glad you agree. Isn't this fun?

I just noticed the link in your sig. That mod of yours looks very handy--kind of like Civ II's alerts, but a LOT less intrusive. I gotta try it out.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Glad you agree. Isn't this fun?

Yes!

I just noticed the link in your sig. That mod of yours looks very handy--kind of like Civ II's alerts, but a LOT less intrusive. I gotta try it out.

I didn't play Civ II, but it's conceptually based on the CivAssist tool for Civ III. I wish it caught more conditions (particularly trading), but even without that I really can't play without it anymore. The city growth and happiness warnings are indispensible.

If you're thinking about installing it, you might want to look at the Hall of Fame mod. That includes my alerts but also has some nice enhancements like a UI for enabling/disabling alerts. I think it also has technology trading alerts but maybe not resource trades.