Altering diplo/trade evaluation.

Akka

Moody old mage.
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The binary ressources were my first big grip about good ideas that suffered of an implementation that killed their potential.
The second is the trade and diplomacy.

Trading and diplomacy are good things. Trade is incentive to play peacefully, and so is an alternative to war (as you don't trade with someone you're at war with). Diplomacy adds to immersion, as you interact with other civilizations. Both adds another dimension to the game.

Though, there is one thing that really kills the very principle of trade and negociations in the game. That's the relative evaluation of offering,
ie the fact that when you negociate, the value of what you offer is altered by the total value of what you have.

In other words, if you're rich, and you offer 100 gold, they are worth less than if you're poor and you offer 100 gold. The effect is that, as soon as you start to be powerful, other civ won't trade with you unless you give then insanely high amount of goods.

For some things, it could make sense : if you trade ressources to a country three times smaller, it could be logical that the country ask 1 unit of iron AND 1 unit of coal AND 1 unit of horses, to supply your whole empire with 3 units of salpeter. But considering how the ressource system is done, it just does not work, as 1 unit is exactly sufficient to supply a whole civ, but no more, whatever its size.
For other things, it does not even remotely makes sense : when I offer 100 gold and I ask 110 gold in exchange (yes, it's pointless, the result would be the same if I gave away 10 gold, but it's just to show the principle) and the advisor say "they will feel insulted by the deal" just because my civ is so richer than the other that they estimate my 110 gold to be not even half as valuable as their 100 own, well, I feel something is wrong.

I know that this system was made to prevent the stronger to become even more dominant. I know that for some people, it means "more challenge".
Still, I consider it severely hamper the game.

First, it removes nearly completely the diplomacy and trading. Sorry, but when I know I'll have to offer two tech, one strategic ressource, 50 gpt and 100 gold for just a map, I don't even bother to try to negociate any deal, as I'll be plainly ripped off. The whole trade system becomes useless.
The only times where it'll be used, will be right at the start of the game, when civs are about the same strenght and deals fairly, and in times of extreme needs (I NEED a MPP or a particular ressource). It's a bit bad to restrict the whole system to less than one tenth of the game lenght :-/

Second, it makes the war the only reasonable solution, which is quite a strange idea.
When I know I'll have to offer an arm and a leg to get oil from a 4-cities civ, while I'll just have to dispatch one tiny part of my armed forces to crush it and takes what I want, well then here comes another war, and another civ disappear from the map.

So I would like to see an evaluation that consider what you ask and what you give in absolute terms, not in relative to your size. Could make trade reenter the game.



The second part of my complains about the diplo system and evaluation, is how civs start to despise you when you grow strong.

Firstly, the feeling "me vs the world" is frustrating and annoying. It often is perceived as a way to "cheat" against the player to make the victory harder, while in fact it just makes it tedious by having to crush each single civ in war.

Second, directly following the previous feeling, it just feels "like in a game", and detract from immersion. As all the AI acts like that, they feels like, well, AI, rather than individual leaders.

Same things for the sneak attacks or the invasions that AI launch when they start to have too much units. They attack ANYONE or ANYTHING, regardless of their respective power. Stupid, anti-immersive, and annoying. Wars should be started for a reason, not just because an AI have too much military idle. Especially considering they have plenty of building lacking in its cities at this moment...


The last part of my complaint is that there is plenty, plenty, plenty things that worsen the attitude of a civ toward another, without cap. And still, there is very few things that improve this attitude, and they are all capped. What happens is that in the end, everyone hate everyone. Quite dull.

A good thing would be to have ways of improving the opinions of other civs. Being allied, rather than just giving a temporary and fixed boost to attitude, should simply improve it by 1 point every turn the alliance is kept. A successful trading could offer a +3 attitude when the deal is completed, and so on.
 
I agree with most of what Akka write, but as usual I pick on what I don't think is correct ;)
Originally posted by Akka
In other words, if you're rich, and you offer 100 gold, they are worth less than if you're poor and you offer 100 gold. The effect is that, as soon as you start to be powerful, other civ won't trade with you unless you give then insanely high amount of goods.
Have you really tested this? All my experience and testing has given me the impression that what you write above is wrong. All luxuries and resources will cost you a lot more when you're big, but how much gold you have does not matter, only how many faces that will become happy due to the bought luxury etc. If you have tested this, please tell...


For other things, it does not even remotely makes sense : when I offer 100 gold and I ask 110 gold in exchange (yes, it's pointless, the result would be the same if I gave away 10 gold, but it's just to show the principle) and the advisor say "they will feel insulted by the deal" just because my civ is so richer than the other that they estimate my 110 gold to be not even half as valuable as their 100 own, well, I feel something is wrong.
Here I know you are wrong. The reason that they don't accept the 110-100 gold trade is that trades where both sides gives goods of exactly the same type (gold for gold, gpt for gpt) is simply not allowed by the AI. If you make the above offer, the AI will say no for the reason I stated, regardless of whether you have only 110 gold and the AI has 10000 gold, or you have 10000 gold and the AI has only 100. How rich you are does not matter at all.
Firaxis has simply decided to outlaw pointless trades instead of working to make the AI try to make smart decisions. This is good IMHO, as a 110-100 gold trade is pointless, as you say.
 
Ah ok, I did no knew they restricted SO MUCH the trade options.

That's probably why I thought that the richer you are, the less your money's worth : I tried to do some gold-for-gold exchange and got the "they would never accept such a deal" despite them having enough money.
So I concluded that the deal was considered outrageously unfair, while it was in fact only a restriction...

They could have, at least, made a different kind of refusal (like : "they would consider this trade pointless, really").


Well, anyway it's still true that the bigger you become, the more they will ask you (even if it's for something that should have a fixed value, like a tech).
 
Originally posted by Akka
First, it removes nearly completely the diplomacy and trading. Sorry, but when I know I'll have to offer two tech, one strategic ressource, 50 gpt and 100 gold for just a map, I don't even bother to try to negociate any deal, as I'll be plainly ripped off. The whole trade system becomes useless.
The only times where it'll be used, will be right at the start of the game, when civs are about the same strenght and deals fairly, and in times of extreme needs (I NEED a MPP or a particular ressource). It's a bit bad to restrict the whole system to less than one tenth of the game lenght :-/

Second, it makes the war the only reasonable solution, which is quite a strange idea.
When I know I'll have to offer an arm and a leg to get oil from a 4-cities civ, while I'll just have to dispatch one tiny part of my armed forces to crush it and takes what I want, well then here comes another war, and another civ disappear from the map.


I totally, Totally, TOTALLY agree!! I'm facing that in my current game (and many past occassions ). I wanted to peacefully trade for Alluminum. I offered an insane amount of gold per turn. None of the AI's would take it, and I'm one of the smaller civs. So, I just went to war with one of 'em and took it. :crazyeye:

Stupid.

--CK
 
Originally posted by Akka
Second, directly following the previous feeling, it just feels "like in a game", and detract from immersion. As all the AI acts like that, they feels like, well, AI, rather than individual leaders.

The last part of my complaint is that there is plenty, plenty, plenty things that worsen the attitude of a civ toward another, without cap. And still, there is very few things that improve this attitude, and they are all capped. What happens is that in the end, everyone hate everyone. Quite dull.

A good thing would be to have ways of improving the opinions of other civs. Being allied, rather than just giving a temporary and fixed boost to attitude, should simply improve it by 1 point every turn the alliance is kept. A successful trading could offer a +3 attitude when the deal is completed, and so on.

Akka, I couldn't agree more! Dang it! Change it now! :rant:
 
One thing I thought of was having most of the negative strikes against you nullified when you change governments. You'd get a blank slate with a switch.
 
Yes, switching governements should definitely have an effect on reputation.


Is skimmed through this thread and found that really what is needed (from a modder's point of view) is more alterable Diplomacy fields in the Editor. For instance, as setting for minimum/maximum trade rates would be a way of at least giving players the option of altering the default settings.

That said, AI/Human diplomacy needs improvement.
 
Originally posted by Colonel Kraken
I totally, Totally, TOTALLY agree!! I'm facing that in my current game (and many past occassions ). I wanted to peacefully trade for Alluminum. I offered an insane amount of gold per turn. None of the AI's would take it, and I'm one of the smaller civs. So, I just went to war with one of 'em and took it. :crazyeye:
Did you really have an insanely high income at that time? If your net income was 30 gpt and you offer them 100 gpt for Aluminium, then the AI will treat your offer as if you only offered 30 gpt. That is probably the reason they turned down your offer.

Its easy to complain about the trade mechanics, but there's actually more going on than most players know...
 
Akka is right. Because I often want to play a peacefull game, I set the difficulty level to 'Chieftan'. In the higher levels trade is getting even more unfair!
But I've heard that you can switch the aggresiveness level in conquests. I hope that a more peacefull civ makes fairer deals.
 
I set the difficulty level to 'Chieftan'. In the higher levels trade is getting even more unfair!

The difference in prices between chieftain and deity for everything except techs is only about 1%. Of course, on deity it is harder to earn the gold (getting the good land before the AI claims it all). But there is very little difference in actual gold required between the two levels. The difference in prices between a 'cautious' civ and a civ that is just barely 'furious', is only in the range of 1-4%.

The cost to buy techs increases with difficulty, because it costs you more to research them. The AI values the tech at the cost of what it would take you to research it (if the tech is being traded to you). If he is buying the tech from you, then he values it at how much it would take him to research it (which is always set to be the equivalent of regent level).
 
Than they probably make unfair offers because I have a weak militairy...sigh... The price for expanding culture instead of training an army....
 
Originally posted by TheNiceOne

Did you really have an insanely high income at that time? If your net income was 30 gpt and you offer them 100 gpt for Aluminium, then the AI will treat your offer as if you only offered 30 gpt. That is probably the reason they turned down your offer.

I never offer more gold than I have available (either on hand or per turn). My offers were legitimate.
 
Originally posted by Bamspeedy
The difference in prices between chieftain and deity for everything except techs is only about 1%. Of course, on deity it is harder to earn the gold (getting the good land before the AI claims it all). But there is very little difference in actual gold required between the two levels. The difference in prices between a 'cautious' civ and a civ that is just barely 'furious', is only in the range of 1-4%.
This is actually one of the things I know enough to correct Bamspeedy :eek: (Check this thread for references.)

The difference in prices (disregarding techs) between chieiftan and deity will vary from 5 - 20%. 5% if the AI civ in question has aggression level 1 (ex: India), and 20% if it has aggression level 5 (ex: Germany). So the difference can be quite notable.

The cost to buy techs increases with difficulty, because it costs you more to research them. The AI values the tech at the cost of what it would take you to research it (if the tech is being traded to you). If he is buying the tech from you, then he values it at how much it would take him to research it (which is always set to be the equivalent of regent level).
This is only half correct.
First, assume that you want to buy a tech from Germany on deity, a tech that has a cost of 1000 gold on cheiftan. The tech will have a cost of 1000 / 0.6 = 1667 gold for you on deity due to the 0.6 deity research cost modifier. Germany would demand 1667 * 1.2 (The cost modifier for aggression 5 on deity) = 2000 gold, while India would demand 1667 * 1.05 = 1750 gold.

However, if he is buying from you, he still considers how much it would take you to research it. So Germany will pay you 1667 / 1.2 = 1388 gold for the tech on deity. And India will pay you 1667 / 1.05 = 1587 gold. This means that if you get a tech lead on deity, selling techs will cripple the AI, because the will pay more for the tech to you than they would pay from another AI, which is 1000 gold.
 
This is actually one of the things I know enough to correct Bamspeedy (Check this thread for references.)

I never saw your thread. I was basing my information on this thread: AI attitude and Trade
And figuring that the only difference was that on deity the AI starts out at ~2-3 attitude points lower towards you than on chieftain.

However, if he is buying from you, he still considers how much it would take you to research it. So Germany will pay you 1667 / 1.2 = 1388 gold for the tech on deity. And India will pay you 1667 / 1.05 = 1587 gold. This means that if you get a tech lead on deity, selling techs will cripple the AI, because the will pay more for the tech to you than they would pay from another AI, which is 1000 gold.

I wasn't so sure about this. On Beyond deity difficulty levels, I frequently would have to give the AI 2 or 3 monopoly techs for just 1 of his monopoly techs.
 
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