Alternative Timelines

I'd also like to add Spacepunk into the mix.
Although you probably could shoehorn its content into late Atompunk/early Cyberpunk if you really wanted to.

Sounds great, even though people aren't ready to start developing it, you could start the ongoing discussion to work out the details, and suggest the ideas, until someone is motivated to start working them in.
I am glad to participate in furthering your ongoing discussion. I hope you keep it going.

In the same spirit I started the:
Science Fiction Era Thread
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=486071
to have an ongoing discussion on your favorite Science Fiction ideas (that don't fall into one of the other genres or eras).

It is also a good place to distinguish science fiction ideas from speculative future ideas(more likely) and spur ongoing and working discussion to eventually figure out how to get them into C2C.
Like flying cars, transporters, gundams, and light-sabers.
Feel free to bring up your own!
 
I now this thread's a little old, but have we ever considered doing an Alternate History based on myths? It'd be interesting to see one in the Classical Era based on Greek Mythology or Mythology of that time period in general. The only problem I'd see is that it'd be a bit more out there and more fantastical than realistic.
 
@Nerdman

For the most part we have tied to stay away from fantasy, magic and mythology. There has been talks of a separate C2C Fantasy add-on however. While the "Punks" are scifi in their nature they still sit on the edge of plausibility. Mythological creatures, magic spells and other such fantasy themed things are too impossible for this and can only possibly be used in high tech situations such as nano-tech acting like magic or genetic engineering making mythological style monsters.

The whole theme of these techs is to use current technology to make advanced technology. Such as the Di Vinci Tank. It used mechanical technology, with wood, iron and even early cannons to make a tank long before there were tanks. Its that kind of application the alt-timeliens were made for.

And even the Bear Riders are based in some plausibility. Bears are real, and while extremely slow and dangerous one could selectively breed for tame bears. Eventually one could have a domesticated bear. It would take a lot longer due to their low amount of offspring (2 to 3) and aggressive nature. Honestly I think possibly black bears might be the best type of bear. They are smaller than brown bears and have a wide diet. Some even have shown social behavior with other bears.

Here are some guidelines ...

What makes an animal possible to domesticate?

The world's foremost expert on domestication is arguably UCLA Professor Jared Diamond, who is best known for his popular science books like the awesomely titled Guns, Germs, and Steel. In the book, he lays out six basic criteria that an animal has to meet in order to be possible to domesticate. Let's run through them briefly:

1. The animal needs to be able to eat a lot of different thing and be willing to live off the scraps of humans. If the animals are able to eat stuff humans can't, such as grass, then even better. This also makes strict carnivores somewhat more difficult to domesticate than other animals, as it commits humans to providing a ready food source of other animals for them to eat.

2. The animals need to grow up fast, or at least faster than humans. There's not much point in trying to domesticate extremely long-lived species like elephants or tortoises, as it can take several years before they're even remotely useful, and their long life cycle limits how quickly their numbers can be replenished.

3. The animals must be willing to breed in the close quarters of captivity. Any creature that demands a lot of open territory in order to breed - pandas and antelopes are good examples of this - are terrible domestication candidates.

4. The animals have to be naturally pleasant. An unpredictable or ill-tempered beast is just going to be dangerous to attempt to keep enclosed in a small area. It's possible to meet some animals halfway on this - for instance, the American bison can be kept in huge enclosures on ranches - but that's as close as we can get to full-on domestication for species like that.

5. It isn't just pleasantness - the animals need to be calm as well. Skittish or flighty animals will constantly attempt to escape, and it can be almost impossible to control them even if escape is impossible. This is what seems to have kept foxes from being successfully domesticated, as they're far more skittish than dogs and wolves.

6. The animals need to be willing to recognize humans as their new masters, which means they must have a flexible social hierarchy.

The remarkable thing about all this is that some animals that seem almost indistinguishable from their domesticated counterparts can prove to be incurably wild. The difference between foxes and dogs doesn't seem like very much, domestic pigs seem superficially very similar to the impossibly wild peccaries and warthogs, and zebras can even interbreed with the fully domesticated horses and donkeys...and yet outside a couple isolated cases of taming zebras, the species has proven completely impossible to domesticate.

Source: http://io9.com/5756178/why-can-some-animals-never-be-domesticated

1. Black bears eat our garbage so check.

2. Black bears live around 18 years in the wild though some have reached 31. And they can start to have babies around 3–5 years old. That's getting to be a little long, but still shorter than a human lifespan. So maybe.

3. I don't know this. I would suspect they may need a large range.

4. Yeah they fail at this, but I would think if you could get past the first few aggressive generations you could get a tame bear population.

5. Yeah they would have to be caged well like the Russian foxes until they were more friendly to humans.

6. Do bears have a hierarchy? I don't know.

So yeah zebras and bears may be at the edge of this. But if they were easily domesticated then it would not be an atl-timeline would it?
 
Didn't the Soviet era scientists demonstrate that you could domesticate animals that don't fit the above list. Foxes, I think they used. Foxes are considered undomesticatable but they did it. It took 50 generations or so but they ended up with something that acted like a dog and had some physical characteristics which were dog like. "All" they did was select the least aggressive animals from each generation and bread them. They also went the other way to and undomesticated animals by selecting the most aggressive each generation.
 
Concerning the logic behind the domestication of certain animals, don't forget the power of directed breeding. The first tame/domesticated horses were probably a lot more skittish than modern breeds. Same with dogs, who have different temperaments than wolves. Assuming an animal has tendencis towards "acceptable" behaviours and the humans have enough time, they can almost certainly be bred towards something humans can use.
 
Didn't the Soviet era scientists demonstrate that you could domesticate animals that don't fit the above list. Foxes, I think they used. Foxes are considered undomesticatable but they did it. It took 50 generations or so but they ended up with something that acted like a dog and had some physical characteristics which were dog like. "All" they did was select the least aggressive animals from each generation and bread them. They also went the other way to and undomesticated animals by selecting the most aggressive each generation.

That's what I ment when I said Russian Foxes. And if bears were domesticated I would suspect they would manifest other mutations like the foxes did such as coat color. In wild populations of bears you can already see a wide variety of coat colors from black to brown to golden.

Here is the wiki page on the Domesticated Silver Fox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

Note you can actually purchase the foxes (the tame kind) as pets now.
 
Here is material about Ainu ritual of bear sacrifice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iomante

This paragraph is interesting:
Trappers set out to the bear caves at the end of winter, while the bears are still hibernating. If they find a newborn cub, they kill the mother and take the cub back to the village, where they raise it indoors, as if it were one of their own children. It is said that they even provide the cub with their own breast milk. When the cub grows larger, they take it outdoors, and put it into a small pen made of logs. Throughout their lives, the bears are provided with high-quality food. The cubs are treated as, and traditionally believed to be, gods.
 
How to disable them , and why they are on, on default.

Those tech's are really annoying and unbalanced.
 
Yes, but it would be nice if they were made into a game option.
 
Not sure whether to post this here or in the Ideas/Discussion thread.

How about Survival of the Neanderthals as an alternative timeline? Specifically, allowing Neanderthal Warriors to upgrade to macemen, axemen, swordsmen, etc. Seems to fit in with the "alternative timelines" idea: you build Culture (Neanderthal) and the Neanderthals remain part of your society as you develop. Most of the other culture-specific UUs upgrade.

To make it a bit more interesting, could have Neanderthal Warriors start with a new "Neanderthal" promotion, giving them +10% :strength:. The "Neanderthal" promotion would be available only to melee units, though, so when they eventually upgrade to gunpowder units they'll lose this.

Just an idea. As I said, seems to fit the alternative timelines idea.
 
How to disable them , and why they are on, on default.

Those tech's are really annoying and unbalanced.

OK answer is in first post.

Yes, but it would be nice if they were made into a game option.

Unfortunately disabling the modules wont remove the techs from the tech tree. I have complained about that. I suppose that now I am temporarily the a mod boss I could insist on it being changed:mischief:.

Similarly, because of the way the XML is loaded we can't (currently) make them a game option because the tech tree is built before the options are set so that they will exist in the current game but out if you save and then load or start a new game.
 
Unfortunately disabling the modules wont remove the techs from the tech tree. I have complained about that. I suppose that now I am temporarily the a mod boss I could insist on it being changed:mischief:.

Similarly, because of the way the XML is loaded we can't (currently) make them a game option because the tech tree is built before the options are set so that they will exist in the current game but out if you save and then load or start a new game.
I don't believe that's true that the tech tree is built before the options are set but you MIGHT be. I could probably do a little work to add a game option tag on techs but I'm not sure how that would look on the tree itself until a lot more research.

The rest of it, units, etc... can easily be dependent on an option. But it would be a job that would take some time to implement and I feel there's more important things to address at the moment.
 
All you have to do is look at the pedia from the main menu. It tells you what XML has been loaded. All the WoC stuff will have been done by then.

This is why we needed the replacement mechanism (which is now fully operational again.) I think I might be able to figure out how to make this work.

Let me ask you... is it possible to have a defined tech that isn't researchable or shows up on the tech tree in the game? How would you define a 'dead' tech that's not included in the tree or as a researchable tech? If this is already possible somehow, this would be very easily done. Otherwise, we'll have to make this possible. At which point we make a redefinition entry for the techs we want to disable when the option is off that sets them to this 'invisible/unresearchable' status.
 
I was thinking too... we have a blank tech for use for assigning as a prereq for promos that aren't to be selected but are to be assigned by events or some other direct method instead. I can take a look at that one and duplicate the methods used there to make the tech non-game existent. Create a replacement entry for the tech you want dependent on game option and voila - we have an optionalized tech.
 
Let me ask you... is it possible to have a defined tech that isn't researchable or shows up on the tech tree in the game?

If you open the Worldbuilder, there is a "Special Promotions" Tech, that isn't researchable nor shows up in the tree.
 
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