Iceciro
Special Ability: Decimate
It wasn't the idea I disliked. just the implementation.
Education civics are still pretty solid as an idea.
Education civics are still pretty solid as an idea.
AND 1.75 Civic Changes
- Thread starter Afforess
- Start date
I agreeYou should try Slavery sometime. It is a very powerful civic, name notwithstanding.
TowerWizard
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 274
When I found out about RoM, there were one thing that I really hated with it: the civics. I disliked the design of the page (much less aestetic, no overview at all). In AND the civics are better... but I still find them annoying. There are very few of them that I like, and many times new civics are actually worse than the ones I have had since the start, especially when you factor in the anarchy time.
Take slavery, for instance. In the beginning of the game, when you have few resources, it just makes it more difficult. +50% time to grow cities? Unhealthyness, gives opponents free happiness, provides unhappiness when used, the slave market producing unhappiness later, the slave citizens eating food, not producing Great people points... I mean, where is the advantage? A single whip every 30 turns, more in small cities with limited food? Realistic? Yes. Useful? Marginally, since the growth is so important. Fun? No.
Don't get me wrong. I favor realism, that's why I play AND (and probably will even after I have started playing ciV) but the civics also need to feel like progress, like you are getting somewhere. They should also mirror history loosely. If every medieval kingdom used feudalism IRL, then Feudalism should be very useful during that era of the game, but loose power later (but not be totally useless!) in favor of another civic. however, in modern times, a lot of different governments are used, so during that era there should be many choices of civics.
I liked the idea of Future civics. That adds a new dimension to the late game. I also would like to have Education civics, but as stated, they should revolve around precisely that: the education of the people. I completely agree with Iceciro, though. The starter civic should not penalize research or production, but maybe Great People points and/or culture should be at a penalty? Hydromancerx list was ok, but Written tradition better than E-Education? Change the last two civics in that list, and add 1 beaker to Scientists while in Compulsory Education and add one gold to merchants during Corporate Education, and I would support it.
EDIT: If someone is reading this, I must apoplgice for my extreme stupidity. Slavery in fact only have one mayor drawback: the fact that cities grow slower. Even if you never use the whip, slavery rules. Nearly everything gets easier. +10% tools. +10% cash. +15% tools and cash with a cheap building. The only problem here is that is it extremely hard to leave slavery! I still have to say that the most annoying thing about AND is the civics, because sop many of them are just, you know, stupid. If the benefit is not that great, why change?
Take slavery, for instance. In the beginning of the game, when you have few resources, it just makes it more difficult. +50% time to grow cities? Unhealthyness, gives opponents free happiness, provides unhappiness when used, the slave market producing unhappiness later, the slave citizens eating food, not producing Great people points... I mean, where is the advantage? A single whip every 30 turns, more in small cities with limited food? Realistic? Yes. Useful? Marginally, since the growth is so important. Fun? No.
Don't get me wrong. I favor realism, that's why I play AND (and probably will even after I have started playing ciV) but the civics also need to feel like progress, like you are getting somewhere. They should also mirror history loosely. If every medieval kingdom used feudalism IRL, then Feudalism should be very useful during that era of the game, but loose power later (but not be totally useless!) in favor of another civic. however, in modern times, a lot of different governments are used, so during that era there should be many choices of civics.
I liked the idea of Future civics. That adds a new dimension to the late game. I also would like to have Education civics, but as stated, they should revolve around precisely that: the education of the people. I completely agree with Iceciro, though. The starter civic should not penalize research or production, but maybe Great People points and/or culture should be at a penalty? Hydromancerx list was ok, but Written tradition better than E-Education? Change the last two civics in that list, and add 1 beaker to Scientists while in Compulsory Education and add one gold to merchants during Corporate Education, and I would support it.
EDIT: If someone is reading this, I must apoplgice for my extreme stupidity. Slavery in fact only have one mayor drawback: the fact that cities grow slower. Even if you never use the whip, slavery rules. Nearly everything gets easier. +10% tools. +10% cash. +15% tools and cash with a cheap building. The only problem here is that is it extremely hard to leave slavery! I still have to say that the most annoying thing about AND is the civics, because sop many of them are just, you know, stupid. If the benefit is not that great, why change?
just kiddingE_Pluribus_Unum
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2008
- Messages
- 176
Remember this thread? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=283862
Among other thing education were discussed.
And this was my suggestion : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7280231&postcount=123
Among other thing education were discussed.
And this was my suggestion : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7280231&postcount=123
What does the paradise economy civic in the beta represent? It is not a materialistic paradise since that would be post scarcity and it is not an environmentalist paradise since that would be green. Post scarcity feels a bit odd as a civic choice since it is really a stage of development that eliminates economy rather than an economic system. It is also possible to adopt it without having the industry to support it.
Killtech
Discutator
education civics... hmmm.
isn't the education policy you run more or less defined by the buildings you build? what about running 'ignorance' but having schools, universities and libraries in each city? and there is also the problem: in a normal state you have to some degree all kind of education: milirary education for those who chose that in the army, religious education for those who want to spent their life for a church, apprenticeship for all the craftsman and so on. propaganda? what's that for an education? i lived in communist poland and acutally the education standarts were much higher than they are now. only 'propaganda' there was tought in history lessons as some topics were viewed more positive then they are from a capitalist point of view (i.e. russian revolution). and yes: russian was tought instead of english.
and i like the idea of 'oral tradition' + libraries. makes sense to me.
isn't the education policy you run more or less defined by the buildings you build? what about running 'ignorance' but having schools, universities and libraries in each city? and there is also the problem: in a normal state you have to some degree all kind of education: milirary education for those who chose that in the army, religious education for those who want to spent their life for a church, apprenticeship for all the craftsman and so on. propaganda? what's that for an education? i lived in communist poland and acutally the education standarts were much higher than they are now. only 'propaganda' there was tought in history lessons as some topics were viewed more positive then they are from a capitalist point of view (i.e. russian revolution). and yes: russian was tought instead of english.
and i like the idea of 'oral tradition' + libraries. makes sense to me.
szemek77
Prince
I second Killtech's view (not only because he lived in Poland
). In my opinion introducing education policy is not needed. The gain or loss of 
is alreadymirrored in present civics, so why exactly should we add another element?
When you mention "ignorance + science building existance" paradox, it is valid, but shall I remind you that using present options, you can choose "free market, church, intolerant, vassalage, proletariat, and despotism" combination? does not make any sense either....
Killtech
Discutator
that's why i remade the civics for myself. however i didn't find the time to finish them
. also i've applied for a tag to disallow certain civics to be used at the same time to prevent paradox civic combinations.but as for the civics: if there is really the will to add new civic categories i'd suggest to think about jurisdiction civics. they are not covered by any other civics nor are they in conflict with any existing buildings. also jurisdiction is quite independent of your other civics. it is historically much more correct to make this a civic as there were indeed different types of jurisdiction systems through history. in fact every civilization had to make it thoughts laws and how they are to be applied while education wasn't a real topic in ancient politics.
szemek77
Prince
that's why i remade the civics for myself. however i didn't find the time to finish them
Yeah, I wanted to do sth in this area, but if you work and have family, it is really hard to find time to play, not to mention modding. There is a wide consensus that civics need tweaking, but there is a long way to conclude a new system which is working and reasonable.
Long time ago I came to conclusion that we should give up historical and real names of civics. Current civics make you follow still the same paths (which depends of course on your objectives), as it is obvious that i.e. liberal and free market are the best choices (and they should be!). So I had an idea to create a whole new system, which would not be affected by reality. The desired result would be a set of diversified options. Never got time to work it, though...
Agreed
Killtech
Discutator
maybe because it is understood that in a republic they are free to voice their unhappiness - though a republic does not necessary imply that in reality. however civics in RoM are in general not very logical...
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I don't like it either. If I had the appropriate modding skillz it would change in my game.
And I Really don't like that Fascism get +3 Happy faces. Just totally backwards from my point of view.
But a long dissertation/discussion has been given as to why it is the way it is. So you may not get an answer, other than a link to that discussion, maybe.
So I bite the bullet to use Republic any way. :/ (It's not fun either)
JosEPh
And I Really don't like that Fascism get +3 Happy faces. Just totally backwards from my point of view.
But a long dissertation/discussion has been given as to why it is the way it is. So you may not get an answer, other than a link to that discussion, maybe.
So I bite the bullet to use Republic any way. :/ (It's not fun either)
JosEPh
Killtech
Discutator
there is somewhat backed up by history. in times of big crisis a large unhappiness can grow in democacies especially such weak like the pre WW2 germany and italy (which governments were succeeded by fascist regimes). this anger of citizens drives many into the arms of right-wing populists and demagogues who say 'they can solve all the problems unlike the corrupt other politicians with a strong government'. and as hilter or mussolini were elected indeed the discontent reduced in the populations and as you can see in the many pictures from hitlers time there were even crowds happily applauding him (and they did it willingly... before they new what he was up to).
however i do agree that outside of a crisis people living in a democratic system are happier in average then in a fascist dictatorship.
Civ Fuehrer
Drifting through space, lost
Afforess, I'm not sure that Propaganda would be a nice fit there, it's used more to control the people -their fears, trust and loyalty- than educate them where all the other options do. Even military training had it's place in Ancient Greece, but Propaganda is just a tool that the leader uses to blind their people.
Slightly off topic
Is it possible to make a civic available only after you build a national wonder? I am a little puzzled by how I can adopt superhuman without building a single cloning lab. Perhaps 5 cloning labs should enable a national wonder that lets you switch to superhuman civic? Forcing a player to build up prior to switching could be very interesting.
Is it possible to make a civic available only after you build a national wonder? I am a little puzzled by how I can adopt superhuman without building a single cloning lab. Perhaps 5 cloning labs should enable a national wonder that lets you switch to superhuman civic? Forcing a player to build up prior to switching could be very interesting.
Killtech
Discutator
without any SDK change you could make a workaround: national wonder (that needs 5 cloning labs or so) which unlocks all civics in the category where superhuman civic is. superhuman civic would require to be the last civic unavailable.Slightly off topic
Is it possible to make a civic available only after you build a national wonder? I am a little puzzled by how I can adopt superhuman without building a single cloning lab. Perhaps 5 cloning labs should enable a national wonder that lets you switch to superhuman civic? Forcing a player to build up prior to switching could be very interesting.
not sure if another possibility exists with the current xml
Afforess
The White Wizard
Major, Major update to OP. PLEASE READ and EVALUATE. Thanks! 
os79
Deity
If this is "major major" (your words), why bother with Despotic civic? Despotic and Fascistic concepts are basically the same... You did remove Communism because of its better placement in other Civics.
So why bother still having Despotism? Is it purely for Game Play purpose?
So why bother still having Despotism? Is it purely for Game Play purpose?
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