AND 1.75 Civic Changes

Afforess

The White Wizard
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
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Location
Austin, Texas
The civics in AND (especially the government ones) have had a lot of complaints, especially due to the unhappiness. Bugged by the complaints, and annoyed at the imbalance in the civics, I decided to rethink them with an eye towards 2 key factors, Simplicity, and Cause and Effect.

First off, Simplicity: Don't add modifiers to civics that don't have anything to do with civics. How does being a despotic warlord vs a monarch affect how experienced your new troops are? It doesn't. So why do the civics? That kind of modifier belongs in the Military civic category, it's there for a reason!

Second, Cause and Effect. Historically, why have nations become more democratic? It's not because rulers have become less powerhungry, that's for sure. It's because democracies are cheaper and more effective to run than a fascist dictatorships. You can run despotism over smaller countries, but it wouldn't work on the scale of a country like the US. It's just too big. It'd fracture for sure. Plus, the expense of making sure over 300 million people did as you said, and not vice-versa would raise the tax rate to 100%. Democracies, and more open governments formed because the old ones got too expensive, too repressive, or too large. It's a simplistic model that doesn't factor in all cases, and there are exceptions (soviet union, I'm looking at you), but it's a fairly good correlation.

So, without further ado, here are the new government civics:

Chiefdom:
  • 50% Distance Maintenance
  • 50% Number of City Maintenance
  • 50% Oversea City Maintenance
  • +4 Anger in all Cities
  • No Anger in the Capital City
  • +1 Happy per military unit

Despotism:
  • 30% Distance Maintenance
  • 30% Number of City Maintenance
  • 30% Oversea City Maintenance
  • +3 Anger in all Cities
  • No Anger in the Capital City
  • +1 Happy per military unit
  • 50% Faster construction of Barracks, Garrison
  • +30% Military Production

Monarchy:
  • Unlimited Nobles
  • 15% Distance Maintenance
  • 15% Number of City Maintenance
  • 15% Oversea City Maintenance
  • +1 Anger in all Cities
  • No Anger in the Capital City

Republic:
  • +25% Culture in Capital City
  • +50% War Weariness
  • +1 Anger per 20% Tax Rate

Democracy:
  • -10% Distance Maintenance
  • -10% Number of City Maintenance
  • +75% War Weariness
  • +1 Anger per 15% Tax Rate
  • +2 Happy in All Cities
  • +1 Anger per Military Unit
  • -5% Production

Federal:
  • -25% Distance Maintenance
  • -25% Number of City Maintenance
  • +100% War Weariness
  • +1 Anger per 10% Tax Rate
  • -15% Production
  • +3 Happy in All Cities
  • +1 Anger per Military Unit


Fascist:
  • +25% Oversea City Maintenance
  • No War Weariness
  • +1 Happiness in All Cities
  • +15% Production
  • -15% Commerce
  • -50% Culture
  • +25% Military Unit Production
  • -25% City Growth Rate
  • +1 Espionage Per Specialist



Hopefully, you noticed a general pattern. The early civics give tons of anger, but exempt the capital, so as not to screw your starting city over. You will have to enforce your will with military force. Later civics don't give you happiness with your military, but don't cause unhappiness immediately. Instead, the democratic civics will punish you for high tax rates. Fortunately, they also come with nice maintenance reductions, which should give you some lee-way.

As for the divisions amongst the civics, Chiefdom, Despotism, and Monarchies are fairly well defined, I'll assume you can tell the difference in ideology. As for a Republic, I see it as a "limited Democracy". Some citizens are allowed to vote, and some people are elected, but it's not a "tyranny of the majority", like a Democracy is. Not all laws are changeable. There is a set constitution that enforces certain laws.

Democracy is a Representative Democracy. Everyone can vote. Anyone can hold political office. As a result, laws can change with the public's whims, for good or ill.

Federal is a loosely organized government running a series of Democracies. (E.g European Union). The federal government has only limited control over the smaller democracies inside of it. This form of government is the weakest, and makes the people the happiest. Conversely, it's weakness causes less production.

Fascist is a "Popular Dictatorship". They often form because people (mistakenly) think it's better than the current system. (See Hitler's Rise to Power). Therefore, the people are happy, since they instated the dictator, and the dictator is "of" the people.

I plan on doing a similar shakedown on all other civics, but I wanted to get a general reaction first. If you think this idea is terrible, please let me know, so I can quit now. I need your feedback.
 
I have a great deal of trouble with this suggestion. At first I thought it was the names more than anything else. However on reflection I don't see the unifying principal "Education" being reflected in the individual civics. Or at least not in some of them.

Ignorance, Heritage, an Propaganda are the three I have difficulty as seeing as Education civics , ie a society's emphisys on education.

Perhaps replace Ignorance and Heritage with Oral Tradition and introduce a new one "Elite". All representing forms of education where the state is not directly involved.

Oral Tradition
- which is very good at keeping historical events remembered until writing becomes almost universal
  • No Upkeep
  • -10% Science
  • +15% Culture
  • +1 Culture Per Artist
  • Decreased Rebelliousness

Elite - covers bronze age to early modern education is paid for by parents. - private tutors, greek slaves, etc ;)
  • Low Upkeep
  • requires writing
  • +5% Culture

As for propaganda I am just not sure what you are trying to suggest there.
 
"Military Units Produced with food" is a frickin' trap. :mad: I will never use a civic that enables that.

Heritage is for culture war which I never do, so there's no acceptable civic for that until guilds, until which you've reduced my science by 10% 0_o

I'd also like to note for a civic category called "education" 2 civics reduce science (including the defualt!) 3 more leave it static, and it increases science at the already too-fast endgame.
 
I liked how one mod (CCV?) moved Slavery into Labor civic, alongside with Caste and few others while Economy have its list of civics appropriate.

Reason:
Slavery was not an economic decision historically and even to this day. Yes, it give an excellent short term economical benefits but only in the larger context of economic system of the country/whatever community. Because the ancient use of slavery and USA's use of slavery are basically the same but their economies were completely different. Yes, the North and the South developed into different types of systems because of their usage or non-usage of slavery but they relate toward each other through a primitive free market trade. Therefore, slavery, in my strong opinion, was mistakenly set in Economic civic by the Firaxis, and then blindly followed by the modders here.

So I hope you take this final chance before 1.75 comes and there is no more versions after that to move Slavery to Labor or even just remove it completely.

Opinions? Revisions? Or status quo?
 
I don't like Ignorance (you get an automatic -10% science at the start of the game?). I agree with Dancing Hoskuld's additional categories as a replacement for the first 2 (which would address Iceciro's comment about not having a civic I would use until guilds).

I'd never use the Military Training and it seems like Military training is more of a military civic, not really about education.

Religious Training seems out of place (I would think you'd get it with Meditation) since the education tech makes things obsolete.

Last, if you have a category like education, I would think that all the civics would have some impact on your science production, so it seems strange that some of the civics ignore science all together.
 
I liked how one mod (CCV?) moved Slavery into Labor civic, alongside with Caste and few others while Economy have its list of civics appropriate.

Reason:
Slavery was not an economic decision historically and even to this day. Yes, it give an excellent short term economical benefits but only in the larger context of economic system of the country/whatever community. Because the ancient use of slavery and USA's use of slavery are basically the same but their economies were completely different. Yes, the North and the South developed into different types of systems because of their usage or non-usage of slavery but they relate toward each other through a primitive free market trade. Therefore, slavery, in my strong opinion, was mistakenly set in Economic civic by the Firaxis, and then blindly followed by the modders here.

So I hope you take this final chance before 1.75 comes and there is no more versions after that to move Slavery to Labor or even just remove it completely.

Opinions? Revisions? Or status quo?

I never use slavery, but agree with OS79's reasoning...I think it'd be fine to move - but I'd want to make sure that it doesn't create a gap in that civic category (since I believe the AI tends to favor slavery).
 
I never use slavery, but agree with OS79's reasoning...I think it'd be fine to move - but I'd want to make sure that it doesn't create a gap in that civic category (since I believe the AI tends to favor slavery).

You should try Slavery sometime :). It is a very powerful civic, name notwithstanding.
 
You should try Slavery sometime :). It is a very powerful civic, name notwithstanding.

I'm sure you're right! Obviously the AI thinks so as well :) But for some reason I always feel a ping of ethical dissonance when I choose that civic. Same reason I was usually on the "don't add a playable Hitler civ" -- it just would bug me and I would feel compelled to destroy the nazi's immediately if they were ever in a game...but that's just me. :)
 
I'm sure you're right! Obviously the AI thinks so as well :) But for some reason I always feel a ping of ethical dissonance when I choose that civic. Same reason I was usually on the "don't add a playable Hitler civ" -- it just would bug me and I would feel compelled to destroy the nazi's immediately if they were ever in a game...but that's just me. :)

The problem is that modern slavery is seen as a racial or gender thing, whereas it was not necessarily so in the medieval and earlier eras. Although red heads would fetch huge prices in the Islamic lands in the 10/11th century AD. ;)

There is some evidence that without slavery you can't move from towns/hamlets to cities but I have not read about it in detail.
 
I just wanted to put out a vote for putting Education civic category into the game.

I'll let you brilliant ones hammer out out the details. ;)

:goodjob:
 
What about the stuff posted here ?

Department of Education:

* Oral Tradition (Available at Start)
o No Upkeep
o -25% Monument Build time

* Written Tradition (Requires: Literature)
o Medium Upkeep
o +10% Science Output
o +15% City maintenance
o -15% Library, School of Scribes, University build time

* Apprenticeship (Requires: Guilds)
o Low Upkeep
o +10% Production
o +1 Free Specialist in Every City


* Religious Training (Requires: Theocracy)
o Medium Upkeep
o +5% Science output
o +1 Happiness in each city with state religion
o +10% City Maintenance
o -20% Temples, Monastery Build time
o Can not have "Abolishment of Religion"
o Cities with state religion are much less rebellious
o Cities with non-state religion are more rebellious

* Military Tradition (Requires: Military Training)
o Medium Upkeep
o -10% Science Output
o -10% Culture Output
o +2xp to new units
o +15% Military Production
o Can not have "Pacifism

* Propaganda (Requires: Fascism)
o High Upkeep
o -10% Science output
o +25% Espionage output
o +2 Happy in largest cities
o +25% City Defense
o +1xp to new units
o +1 happiness from Press Agency, Broadcast Tower
o Population is much less rebellious
o -3 diplomatic penalty, "You're Brainwashing your Citizens!"


* Compulsory Education (Requires: Compulsory Education)
o High Upkeep
o +15% Science Output
o -25% Build time for School, University
o +1 happiness in largest cities
o +25% City Maintenance

* Corporate Education (Requires: Corporations)
o Medium Upkeep
o +10% Science Output
o -25% Corporation Maintenance Costs
o -1 Diplomatic Penalty, "You're Brainwashing your Citizens!"
o -1 Unhappiness in all Cities


* E-Education: (Requires: Computer Networks)
o Low Upkeep
o +10% Science Output
o +15% City Maintenance


* Mind Control (Requires: Cybernetics)
o Astronomical Upkeep
o -25% Science output
o -25% Culture output
o -25% Commerce Output
o Population does not add unhappiness

I really like "Oral Tradition" and "E-Education" choices.
 
Not bad. I'm a big fan of expanding the civics! It allows for a more unique civ and will really make you stand out more from the AI.
 
The problem with slavery is where your income of slaves is from. If you take over some jerk civilization to the north that constantly invaded you and terrorized your cities, your citizens wouldn't be very upset if you took them over and enslaved them. If you enslave your own people however...

As for the civics, I like them. Any more ways to increase science output = yay
 
Call me crazy, but I thought the Welfare Civics combined the old Health and Education Civics (ah RoM 2.4, what memories, it is when I discovered RoM), which made dealing with Civics easier and prevented some weird combinations. It would just seem weird running Private Welfare and having Public Schools, or Socialized Welfare and having Corporate Schools. Also, a few of the Welfare Civics have an influence of "Education Buildings."

It just may be my experience with older versions of RoM, that make me feel like this is a step backwards, however, if Education Civics are added like Sports (optional module, not default), then I say full steam ahead, since with any added content, there will be people who like to play with it.
 
Thanks for the initial reactions - I won't be adding Education civics. Feel free to comment on AND 1.74 civics that you think are unbalanced though.
 
Military Civics:
Reason I like them?
They are progressively better as they go down except for Pacifism and M.A.D.

That is what I want from other civics. Otherwise, the status quo is:
  • Monarchy--->Federal
  • Junta--->Feudal--->Bureaucracy
  • First one (forgot its name)--->Caste (after State Church make sure all cities have my religion for happiness purposes)--->Vassalage--->Proletariat
  • First one (")--->Slavery--->Free Market--->Regulated
  • First one (")--->Prophets--->Divine Cult--->State Church--->Free Church
  • Survivial--->Charity--->Church--->Private--->Subsidized
  • Future (never reach that far in game to figure that out)
  • Banditry--->Standing--->Volunteer--->Unmanned

See few civics move downward smoothly for me but for others, they go down and up. Is that pretty gameplay speaking? Let's not descend into historical discussion but rather analyze gameplay strengths for AI's sake. IMHO, we already include many, many historical flavors in this game and it is just perfect as is after 1.75 alpha game I played. Still need few cullings and tweakings but that is for other thread's discussion. My point is this: we should analyze whether Civics as we have now are good for AIs? If not, how to improve it?
 
I'm planning on adding the MAD Nukes mod, but making the ability to use it limited to the MAD civic, which will make it more useful. As for Pacifism, it can be occasionally useful.
 
I'm planning on adding the MAD Nukes mod, but making the ability to use it limited to the MAD civic, which will make it more useful. As for Pacifism, it can be occasionally useful.

Beautiful and scary :lol:. If AI decide to go into MAD civic, it would announce to the world that it's ready to go nuke-crazy :lol:.
 
I LOVE PACIFISM. I get it early, and as long as I'm playing nice with my neighbors (and ruthless is AI off), the +% birth rate make a large difference. Especially if you grab Republic and Build Agora and Art Gallery...you can get some larger cities quick.
 
I completely support Future civics being added to the main civic lists, but it would be nice to have some sort of Educational civic list, even if it's different to what you posted above.
 
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