AND 1.75 Civic Changes
- Thread starter Afforess
- Start date
os79
Deity
One minor problem, play testing. Will there be beta3 to test these new civics out? Are you willing to support 1.75 until the final version even if it last ahead the date of Civ5 release?
Afforess
The White Wizard
Yes, I am willing to extend AND support until I get a final release out the door, even if it's past Civ5. I know several of you can't play Civ right away, and Civ5's SDK will not be available at release, so I can't mod it out of the gate.
Afforess
The White Wizard
I know, I forgot to mention that, but I'm unclear as to the real life difference between the two.
Don't rush to much, it is not like Civ5 makes Civ4 unplayable/modable
.
os79
Deity
That's my point. Despotism and fascism are ultimately the same practically speaking. The only difference was the rationale and terminology.
Fascism = The impulse to inspire people to look toward one man as a solver to society's problem.
Despotism = Just a term to describe a unwanted tyrant, as opposed to benevolent Monarchy, maybe?
Fascism = The impulse to inspire people to look toward one man as a solver to society's problem.
Despotism = Just a term to describe a unwanted tyrant, as opposed to benevolent Monarchy, maybe?
Afforess
The White Wizard
Yeah, I know. Should I remove Fascism then?
os79
Deity
No idea
. But for game play purpose, maybe keep both in.By the way, since there is not any major objections here so far, you can as well and post whole Civic overhaul (all civic changes for all civic groupings) you said you have. That way, the discussions can move faster and beta3 come out faster based on the discussion. Then few days of play testing. Then see what happens?
Killtech
Discutator
very interesting. i very like that because i see you used my ideas from my original civics mod.Major, Major update to OP. PLEASE READ and EVALUATE. Thanks!
wait, i haven't posted yet
i have always objections.
okay, here we go:
on maintenance reduction: note that -50% half the maintenance. and -25% form court house would then half it again so you basically pay no maintenance at all. my suggestion: reduce the -x% maintenance. the -10%
won't hurt much as it effectively will be just 5% less in a city with a factory (factory gives +100% all i remember) and even less if it has a construction firm or something. note that federal is not early civic. thus you can just leave this penalty out and have no problem advocating it like i had with the university.instead, if you want to reduce maintenance you could compensate with additional military costs. so in average it won't end up being an overpowered civic as the cost will come from military instead of cities. for this purpose it might make sense to make gold expense per unit to be fractional so democracy could use it too, but less harsh
i also know from my civics that +1 anger per 5% taxes is a bit too harsh for a standard civic. it's ok for exotic civics seldom chosen. 10% is much more stable.
instead there's the option of +1
per military unit (people feel intimidated by their state if it shows it might with such big military garrison. don't garrisons quell revolutions? so to fear them is not wrong. also reminds me on the film 'The Siege') - though i'd rather associate that with democracy. give it +2 on default and a 2 units garrison give you exactly no penalty.also: democracy, republic, federal. ever considered to rename these civics as they are really hard to see the difference between them?
as to despotism and fascism: suggestion form my civics: rename the first into absolute monarchy and monarchy into constitutional monarchy and the problem is settled. and monarchy and despotism have too similar stats in your OP. what you haven't touched for this military civics is small boost for military production. makes sense for despotism and fascism and renders them good war civics.
on fascism: i'd suggest -15% commerce instead of -15% production. makes more sense to me (after all workers will be less willing to oppose in such a government).
only thing that i really disagree: chiefdom +5 anger... . so no 2nd city four you until you switch to monarchy or despotism? makes eternity games unplayable at the start i think - especially on deity difficulty. please reconsider.
Cyrus_the_Great
Warlord
Afforess, thank you for willing to see AND to the end?
Afforess
The White Wizard
Thanks for the frank assessment, Killtech, that was what I was looking for. I've updated the civics. I didn't go for a military production boost to the dictator civics, I wanted a simple model.
Killtech
Discutator
actually i see your point in chiefdom with +4 anger. i didn't notice the +1 happy per military unit earlier. it enforces players to build military in similar amounts as the AI does so he cannot just concentrate on his economy. very wise choice to improve the AI without modifying it, lol. now i'll be forced to a much more similar build order like the AI. so cancel my objections on this in my prior post. i like your approach now.
but one thing still bugs me: despotism and monarchy are quite ancient civics. but monarchy is better in nearly everything. this is why i suggested to consider military production boost to make them more distinct and give despotism a chance. i understand your concept of keeping it clean and simple (was one of my intentions for the civics mod, too) but each civic must have some situation it is best suited for. currently despotism hasn't any. it's like a bad version of monarchy.
EDIT: hey, did you just remove fascism? not that i will miss it... but won't there be xml errors? why did you anyway delete it? redundancy can't be an argument since you still left republic, democracy and federal.
Afforess
The White Wizard
Okay.
Okay, I agree then.
I did - but then re-envisioned it, and added it back.
I explained my separations of the differing types of government in the OP as well. Feel free to nitpick.
Afforess
The White Wizard
I'm wondering if Power Civics aren't redundant with the existing Government civics? Generally speaking, the government type dictates how the power is balanced. You don't see Junta-Democracies....
So, I'm thinking about stealing Killtech's Organization Catagory, and replacing power with Organization. Organization describes how your empire is set up, Central government, City State... etc.
So, I'm thinking about stealing Killtech's Organization Catagory, and replacing power with Organization. Organization describes how your empire is set up, Central government, City State... etc.
Killtech
Discutator
oh, the OP just changed. so nvm my comment.
nah, no nitpicking any more. you explained what you understand under these terms. for me these words have a somewhat different meaning. seems to be an language/culture issue of what these terms exactly mean (because i really understand Germany as being a democratic federal republic of which each term describes a certain different aspect of the state). so no sense to discuss that further. you are right this is nitpicking.
Killtech
Discutator
oh hell they are. this is why reorganized them in the first place. well, i tried...
i still tried to keep both civic categories sperate. but in the end it might have been not a good option (problems with stats for the different civics arose as each needed an unique stats characteristic). to melt power and government civics may be the best way. however then i really would consider some renaming - i.e. some two word civics like parliamentarian republic (for republic + parliament) and presidential republic instead of plain republic...
oh wait. i think you know my opinion on this one and seek agreement and criticism of others...
but i will state the obvious anyway: i like the idea
os79
Deity
Good start, though when you set up a new city you definitely need to send at least 4 units. I usually send three archers as a start. And my concern is when two of them "city defend" away from the city. Otherwise, good start.
Lesser angry but still a major concern in subsequent cities. Though the fact you have the next city produce barracks faster is nice. Problem is Despotism come at Military Training, and so does the barrack. I only use two cities for land military unit training. So that make other cities 'ouch ouch'.
I always go from Chiefdom directly to Monarchy. The nobles may help a little but it doesn't say it give me free Noble. Unlimited just mean that any of my current citizen can be used as a Noble. Not much benefit... But still like the no anger in the capital city part. Monarchies historically have a good standing armies (depending who was a autocrat at that point of time) so...
Seem fine. Make my switchover to Republic easier. I used to eschew this civic and wait until Federal. Now I will switch to Republic when it becomes available.
Shouldn't these two civics above and below be switched? Or are you planning to switch the xml prereq of techs about? Because the tech for Federal is Social Contract and Democracy is at Representative Democracy (a later tech than Social Contract.) Personally, I think you should change tech prereqs anyway because Social Contract did imply John Locke's vague ideas of democracy, better than Greece's but not as great as later history of USA's federal system.
Read my comments for Democracy above. Otherwise look nice. Though you should cool down the anger per military unit
. But with three happinesses, that should not be a problem. I'll playtest to see if I can adapt to it. If I have enough happiness buildings to compensate, then sure. My largest concern about anger per military unit is when I conquer a city. There will be about 10-20 turns when I have to train up the city's garrison units in my capital city, then send them on to the conquered city. Well, while that city is waiting, it have these 30-40 military units sitting there and defending it. Ouch, ouch! Bye bye go the production of that city until it is taken over by a smaller standard garrison units.Nice later game militaristic civic.
os79
Deity
Always hated Power civic group myself because it is so hard to represent well in Civ4 game engine, imo.
Killtech
Discutator
i find this view a bit naive. a really deep crisis for the US with an unemployment rate of over 20% and a large crowd of angry people is enough to see how fragile a democracy can be. especially if there is an evil genie agitating the crowds and someone to blame for all the problems. after the 9/11 attacks you could even see how fear alone was enough to make the first steps away from democracy.
also i think democracy is not about the money. it is much more about the spirit of the people. the more wealthy they become the more rights they start to demand. note that in the french revolution the peasants didn't fight for democracy and such things. they starved and fought just for food. on the other hand there were many citizen that became wealthy merchants. but despite of their wealth they were view as 3rd class citizens by law having no possibility to become nobility. they utilized the poorer folks for their ideas. after all only these people read philosophy and new the concept of democracy. and after the revolution the financial problems didn't disappear. they became even greater.
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